US judge: Bitcoin is a currency and CAN be regulated

[Matt Collins]

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/13/08/07/2059250/federal-judge-declares-bitcoin-a-currency

 

[Matt Collins]

On second thought, after reading the court case, it may not be so.

 

[muh_roads]

I'm indifferent. Trendon Shavers (pirate@40) is a gigantic piece of shit. I personally wouldn't mind seeing him behind bars. He stole from people and stealing is a form of aggression against another human being. In a Republic this can still be protected. Otherwise he could create a new username and start a new scam all over again.

But at the same time, people should take responsibility for their own actions and not give their value for someone else to hold without some sort of insurance.

 

[kpitcher]

The judge found that since Bitcoins may be used to purchase goods and services, and more importantly, can be converted to conventional currencies, it is a form of currency (PDF) and investors wishing to invest in the BTCST provided an investment of money, and thus the SEC may regulate such business

By that logic alone Diablo 3 goods can be regulated by the SEC. Fun

 

[FSP-Rebel]

This just legitimizes BTC in many peoples' eyes that are investment types.

 

[Petar]

Yeah, pretty much the only thing that this accomplishes is that it will legitimize Bitcoin as a real form of currency.

I wonder if some ignorant people will still try to call it a "ponzi scheme".

 

[osan]

Yeah, pretty much the only thing that this accomplishes is that it will legitimize Bitcoin as a real form of currency.

I wonder if some ignorant people will still try to call it a "ponzi scheme".

I doubt that. What it will likely do is enable Themme to control bitcoins, steering them in the direction Theye want. If it proves uncontollable, they will destroy it. Once They have regulatory control, literally anything is possible. They could mandate more bitcoins be generated. Bye bye bitcoin.

I warned against this last year, and sure enough here we are. With government tentacles wrapped around currency, that currency is subject to the caprice of government.

Any time government gets its mitts on something its security wings away into the mists. Even gold is not immune, as history clearly shows.

 

[presence]

They could mandate more bitcoins be generated. Bye bye bitcoin.

Not going to happen.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_alternative_cryptocurrencies

 

[Crystallas]

When people attack bitcoins, do they attack the concept or the actual code and structure? I rarely see attacks on the ladder from those who have read the code.

 

[muh_roads]

They could mandate more bitcoins be generated.

ermahgerd...lol

The community wouldn't adopt a version that attempts that and the code would fork.

Bye bye bitcoin.

You can always tell who has sour grapes and who doesn't. People that missed the boat when it was so much cheaper have this hidden desire hoping Bitcoin fails.

Green isn't your color, buddy.

 

[Jackie Moon]

The community wouldn't adopt a version that attempts that and the code would fork.

Yep.

 

[osan]

I wrote: Bye bye Bitcoin, to which the following responses came:

Not going to happen.

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/List_of_alternative_cryptocurrencies

Irrelevant from an operational/practical standpoint because as with any other currency/money bitcoin is a human artifact used by human beings who suffer under human tyrannies. I will elaborate on this in a bit.

When people attack bitcoins, do they attack the concept or the actual code and structure? I rarely see attacks on the ladder from those who have read the code.

Firstly, let me be clear: I am not attacking anyone or anything. If your words are referring to my comment, then they were ill-considered because you incorrectly assumed that I was attacking it. For the record, Bitcoin is not the problem at hand; government tyranny is.

ermahgerd...lol

Is this supposed to be clever? Is there supposed to be some tacit, "everybody is in on it, except maybe you" element at work here? If so, you're showing something of being off the rails and I will explain.

The community wouldn't adopt a version that attempts that and the code would fork.

If you do not see the fundamental and serious problem with this, then you do not understand how things work in the world. Firstly, we are talking about a potential global currency and not something comparatively trivial such as a version of an operating system. I've been in the software R&D/development business for 30 years and have managed projects in the hundreds of millions of dollars and crewed directly by hundreds of people and indirectly by thousands. I have lunched with CEOs of some of the largest corporations on the planet and have had thousands of very illuminating conversations and other encounters and experiences in the course of my time in the biz. I have worked on projects for private companies, defense organizations, state governments, and have had fairly intimate doings with federal agencies such as FCC and DoJ, having reported DIRECTLY to them in the course of my duties as an alpha-dog project manager.

For example, if you go do a search for Southwestern Bell's 271 project in 1999 where they went for approval to enter long distance (interLATA) markets, you will see that it was no trivial affair. I was the senior project manager. Companies such as AT&T, SWB, and so forth moved in accord with the findings of the team of which I was the chief.

I list all of this not to brag but to simply illustrate that my fingers do not move over the keyboard as they do willy nilly. I've been all over this industry and the politics of humans that invariably drive it. I've even been called on the carpet and read the riot act by people who would likely have you near wetting yourself were they to turn their ire upon you. This is not bullshit my pal. Believe as you wish, of course, but I know whence I write on certain topics because I've been there and seen and felt and heard and smelled and tasted it all in pretty stiff measures.

Bitcoin is a currency - it may even be money. I have NO problem with bitcoin per se. I do, however, recognize the nature of the bitcoin beast and it is fundamentally no different from that of any other currency in operational terms save in one respect: counterfeiting. I have not read any proofs of the impossibility of counterfeiting a bitcoin, but have taken it on faith for the time being that they are correct, so that is not my issue.

It is the environment in which the currency is used that poses the problem, not the currency itself. This is key to understanding why bitcoins are not safe from the tyrants. So long as Theye have the material means of placing their hands on something material, including magnetic impulse signals on a storage device, they can manipulate it. The reasons should be obvious, but let me state the major one anyway: they hold the power (by whatever virtue) to mandate behavior and the means of punishing those who do not comply with fiat. People on the whole will comply because they are on the average rotten with lassitude, apathy, fear, cowardice, and rank ignorance. Were this not so, the world would be a significantly different place than what we find it to be at this time. This is simple observational reporting.

The US courts have just stuck its nose in the bitcoin tent, and that is all that is needed. So long as the daily operational role of bitcoin activity does not interfere with the power structure, it may be left alone. But if and when Theye decide it is time to intervene, what exactly do you think will get in their way? Joe Mean? Moral principle? Conscience? What? I contend that Theye will be readily able to legislate their ways into the middle of bitcoin operations and effectively take over without so much as giving the appearance of it to Joe and Jane Mean. Theire propaganda machine will do its job and the average dolt will accept the "necessity" of change and that will be the end of it as a pure and untainted currency commodity.

If worse came to worst, they will simply ban the use and attach truly draconian punishments to possession as has been the case in the drug war. But if the issue is significant enough, Theye can ramp up the wick significantly and most people will comply so long as they have the means of feeding and housing themselves. Nature of the beast my friend.

You can always tell who has sour grapes and who doesn't.

Well, if I am reading your tacit elements right, then apparently you cannot tell because in my case no such thing is the case. Success of bitcoin is not guaranteed by its structure just as the success of our Constitution or the one I wrote as an academic exercise to replace it cannot. The US Constitution contains most of what is needed for good and free living. Ignoring its obvious weaknesses, the contents are in their spirit pretty good, if not perfect. My rewrite is as close to perfect as humanly possible and that is no shit. And yet, were we to adopt it today as the supreme law of the land it would avail us nothing unless we adopted the correct attitude to go along with it. Without the right behaviors in place, structure has no meaning.

Gold can fail as a currency/money because of government regulation and counterfeiting/debasement - both HUMAN activities driven by human attitude and desire.

Paper money can and HAS failed for precisely the same reasons. There is NOTHING about bitcoins that is so fundamentally different that the same fate cannot be realized there as well, save perhaps counterfeiting and that predicates largely on who is in control of the code.

It isn't currency and money that fails - it is HUMANITY that does. Human weakness - the drive to get something for nothing or to wield power over others for whatever ultimate goals one may have in mind. THAT is the hazard that threatens bitcoin, not bitcoin itself.

Doubt me still? What about that 600 tons of "gold" that was heavily salted with tungsten? How safe was that? The point is that anything can be subverted. ANYTHING.

People that missed the boat when it was so much cheaper have this hidden desire hoping Bitcoin fails.

I can speak for nobody else, but in my case you are dead wrong. It would be wonderful to see something emerge that Theye are unable to place hands upon, but thus far there is no indication that that has happened. When bitcoins weather years of sustained regulatory attack, then I will begin to believe otherwise. Until then it remains unproven.

Green isn't your color, buddy.

And adept analysis in this particular case is apparently not yours.

 

[hazek]

I wrote: Bye bye Bitcoin, to which the following responses came:

Bitcoin was built with the threat of being regulated in mind so I really don't understand why it would be bad for a judge to say it's money. Even before digitized banking government regulated transactions, taxed commerce and imposed regulations on all things money. The only difference with Bitcoin is that it's very easy to not give a shit about what a government says you must do with your money.

Government says: Pay taxes!
Bitcoin allows for easy tax evasion.

Government says: You can buy this and that!
Bitcoin allows for easy blackmarket operations.

Government says: We need to create more currency!
Bitcoin allows for people to simply ignore that.

Government says: We need to know who is sending how much to whom!
Bitcoin allows for user defined privacy.


You see? It's impossible for anything the government does with regards to Bitcoin to be negative in the long run for Bitcoin because Bitcoin was built with all these "attacks" in mind. It's one of the major reasons people trust it and if you learned this and really understood why it's true you would be posting such horse shit as you do.

All these actions by the government do is lend ever more credibility to Bitcoin helping to get it an even wider adoption.

 

[osan]

Bitcoin was built with the threat of being regulated in mind so I really don't understand why it would be bad for a judge to say it's money. Even before digitized banking government regulated transactions, taxed commerce and imposed regulations on all things money. The only difference with Bitcoin is that it's very easy to not give a shit about what a government says you must do with your money.

Government says: Pay taxes!
Bitcoin allows for easy tax evasion.

Until men with guns show up at your doorstep.

Government says: You can buy this and that!
Bitcoin allows for easy blackmarket operations.

Until men with guns show up at your doorstep.

Government says: We need to create more currency!
Bitcoin allows for people to simply ignore that.

Until government bans it and men with guns show up at your doorstep.

Government says: We need to know who is sending how much to whom!
Bitcoin allows for user defined privacy.

Until that is legislated away and men with guns show up at your doorstep.

D00d - just look at what Theye have devoted in terms of resources to the utterly irrelevant issue of the drug war. Consider a flea on a fully grown African bull elephant's butt. That's the drug war perched somewhere on the hind end of the issue of money power. Do you really believe that Theye will not pull out all the stops to maintain control over currency? To think this is dangerously and willfully naive on its best day. We are sending armies to butcher people by the millions over the face of the globe for issues that pale in comparison with the tyrant's need to control money. Bring to mind the old quote attributed to Rothschild Snr about not caring who makes a nation's laws so long as he has control over the money. This is for Themme as serious as things get. There is a fair to middling chance that a sitting US president had his brains painted all over the back seat of his car in Dallas in '63 because he was going to wrest control of the money away from the self-proclaimed lords of the earth.

Please for heaven's sake don't be blind to what is really going on here. Bitcoins stand to FREE people in some non-trivial measure and that cannot be tolerated in any marginal way.

You see? It's impossible for anything the government does with regards to Bitcoin to be negative in the long run for Bitcoin because Bitcoin was built with all these "attacks" in mind. It's one of the major reasons people trust it and if you learned this and really understood why it's true you would be posting such horse shit as you do.

Nice civil attitude. That aside, you appear to believe that structure guarantees success and it does not. My direct and first-hand experience has demonstrated this to me beyond a reasonable doubt.

All these actions by the government do is lend ever more credibility to Bitcoin helping to get it an even wider adoption.

On this we may agree, but it is irrelevant to what ultimately may happen. You have yet to demonstrate that bitcoin is immune to legislative manipulation. Your points above are unsupported assertions that I contend have no attachments in reality. Men with guns, on the other hand, demonstrably do. But if you think you can offer a better argument, I am more than willing to hear it and be convinced.

 

[hazek]

How are they going to find me?

Bitcoin allows for user defined privacy, did you somehow miss this part?

 

[osan]

How are they going to find me?

Bitcoin allows for user defined privacy, did you somehow miss this part?

You cannot be serious.

If they want to find you, they will. I have a friend who hunts people for a living with DoD. He could find you within 24 hours and be ringing your doorbell, so to speak, anywhere on the planet. And that's just navy work. Imagine what CIA/NSA is capable of. It seems to me you are grossly underestimating their abilities. Having worked in that biz a small bit I have no illusions about their capabilities.

Please consider the stakes here for Themme - the realization of the global agenda itself is tied to control of currency for reasons I will not go into here but perhaps you are even aware in any event. If Theye had to, they would declare all non-government issued currencies illegal. Any of a million plausible justifications could be concocted with such dire threats to "world stability" or what have you that they would justify summary death sentencing. Bear in mind of whom we are talking - the global socialist. How do they regard the individual? As a readily expendable cog in a giant machine called "society". If that society is threatened by some activity, they have justified the slaughter of several hundreds of millions of people in the past 100 years alone. Consider the Stalins and Maos and Pots - who do you think were pulling their strings? Mao was on the ropes in the 50s as Chiang Kai Shek was kicking his ass all over China. Then one Owen Lattimore intervened with State and Truman pulled his support from Shekkie and backed Mao. Lattimore was a devout global communist. There were literally hundreds of such moles at State alone during that time. IOW, these petty low-rent tyrants like Mao and Obama do not even wipe their own bottoms without instruction and permission.

These pricks are everywhere and they cannot tolerate anything that places the individual at greater distance from his dependence on the glorious state. If Theye lose control of the currency, they lose control of the world. Period. Theye are not likely to allow this to happen and if that means killing people after a ban, I have no doubt they would do it in a heartbeat. The drug war could be done tomorrow in preference to the currency war. There is absolutely nothing in principle to stop them from going to war with those who refuse to comply with their mandates and this one would be the grand daddy of them all.

If they find they cannot gain control of the medium, they simply ban it. Because of the way in which corporations come into being as creatures of the state, nobody running such an entity which operates at the pleasure of the state is going to pull the tail of that tiger. If no "legitimate" businesses will accept bitcoins in the wake of a ban, those who would maintain using that currency would be pretty well reduced to petty bartering between friends and acquaintances. Nothing wrong with that, but what will they do when they want that new BMW? Back to FRNs or whatever.

Or do you think the nation as one will rise and revolt? Even so, keep in mind just how easily they can crash the economy just enough to send streamers down pant legs.

Things are not likely as you seem to think, but I honestly hope you prove me wrong on this. Nothing would make me happier. I would love to see bitcoins not only take off but survive and put Themme out of the business of domination through money. It would make Theire jobs monumentally difficult in comparison with today.


But consider this as well - because bitcoins are initially purchased with other currencies in so many cases, what is to stop Themme from buying up huge percentages of them in a very quiet fashion? What is to stop Themme from, say, striking a deal with Amazon to give them double the market value in FRNs in exchange for the bitcoins taken in? Theye could do this with all the largest corporations with the understanding that nothing is to be said about this lest the children of the board members meet with most unfortunate accidents. Sure, it all sounds moonbats... until you consider the stakes and what Theye have done in pursuit of far meeker goals.

We're talking about humanity here and power politics in the context of a global drive to universal consolidation of power. Money is absolutely central to that goal and if you do not think Theye will not or cannot put an entry team through your door to murder you and you entire family as an object lesson to your neighbors, I think you may be fooling yourself.

 

[Petar]

You cannot be serious.

If they want to find you, they will. I have a friend who hunts people for a living with DoD. He could find you within 24 hours and be ringing your doorbell, so to speak, anywhere on the planet. And that's just navy work. Imagine what CIA/NSA is capable of. It seems to me you are grossly underestimating their abilities. Having worked in that biz a small bit I have no illusions about their capabilities.

Please consider the stakes here for Themme - the realization of the global agenda itself is tied to control of currency for reasons I will not go into here but perhaps you are even aware in any event. If Theye had to, they would declare all non-government issued currencies illegal. Any of a million plausible justifications could be concocted with such dire threats to "world stability" or what have you that they would justify summary death sentencing. Bear in mind of whom we are talking - the global socialist. How do they regard the individual? As a readily expendable cog in a giant machine called "society". If that society is threatened by some activity, they have justified the slaughter of several hundreds of millions of people in the past 100 years alone. Consider the Stalins and Maos and Pots - who do you think were pulling their strings? Mao was on the ropes in the 50s as Chiang Kai Shek was kicking his ass all over China. Then one Owen Lattimore intervened with State and Truman pulled his support from Shekkie and backed Mao. Lattimore was a devout global communist. There were literally hundreds of such moles at State alone during that time. IOW, these petty low-rent tyrants like Mao and Obama do not even wipe their own bottoms without instruction and permission.

These pricks are everywhere and they cannot tolerate anything that places the individual at greater distance from his dependence on the glorious state. If Theye lose control of the currency, they lose control of the world. Period. Theye are not likely to allow this to happen and if that means killing people after a ban, I have no doubt they would do it in a heartbeat. The drug war could be done tomorrow in preference to the currency war. There is absolutely nothing in principle to stop them from going to war with those who refuse to comply with their mandates and this one would be the grand daddy of them all.

If they find they cannot gain control of the medium, they simply ban it. Because of the way in which corporations come into being as creatures of the state, nobody running such an entity which operates at the pleasure of the state is going to pull the tail of that tiger. If no "legitimate" businesses will accept bitcoins in the wake of a ban, those who would maintain using that currency would be pretty well reduced to petty bartering between friends and acquaintances. Nothing wrong with that, but what will they do when they want that new BMW? Back to FRNs or whatever.

Or do you think the nation as one will rise and revolt? Even so, keep in mind just how easily they can crash the economy just enough to send streamers down pant legs.

Things are not likely as you seem to think, but I honestly hope you prove me wrong on this. Nothing would make me happier. I would love to see bitcoins not only take off but survive and put Themme out of the business of domination through money. It would make Theire jobs monumentally difficult in comparison with today.


But consider this as well - because bitcoins are initially purchased with other currencies in so many cases, what is to stop Themme from buying up huge percentages of them in a very quiet fashion? What is to stop Themme from, say, striking a deal with Amazon to give them double the market value in FRNs in exchange for the bitcoins taken in? Theye could do this with all the largest corporations with the understanding that nothing is to be said about this lest the children of the board members meet with most unfortunate accidents. Sure, it all sounds moonbats... until you consider the stakes and what Theye have done in pursuit of far meeker goals.

We're talking about humanity here and power politics in the context of a global drive to universal consolidation of power. Money is absolutely central to that goal and if you do not think Theye will not or cannot put an entry team through your door to murder you and you entire family as an object lesson to your neighbors, I think you may be fooling yourself.

The US Empire cannot afford a global war against BTC.

 

[osan]

How are they going to find me?

Just to let you know - this is simple, down to the address from which you transmit. The IP address can be sourced to an edge switch. Port data is readily had. From the port ID the CLCI is obtained and the mapping to the CLFI, which is the physical line, is determined. Once they refine it to the channel level ( as opposed to the MUX level ) they know pretty well exactly where you are because EVERY connection carries the common language facility identifier right into your dwelling. That is part of the fundamental structure of the network. I used to design this stuff at Bell Labs They will have you down to building resolution at the very least.

NSA has some 24 acres of Crays. That is a lot of computing power. My friend is a genius of sorts and worked with Seymour Cray for many years until Cray was killed in an auto accident. Steve is an expert in the math libraries used on those machines - he wrote them. When I told him that I had a sneaking suspicion that NSA was able to break 1024 bit RSA his only response to me was "no comment". I know exactly what that means. Anyone thinking their puny 128 bit DES encryption is going to keep NSA out is crazy. Not happening.

Therefore, they have the means of IDing what is transacting. They may not know who it is to a name, but that really doesn't matter. They know someone is breaking "the law" and where they are doing it. Next stop, Hazek's house.

I designed a subsystem based on all of this common language ID stuff to locate line breaks. Red alarm goes off on switch A on port xxx. We send a maintenance ping to the repeaters. The last one in the chain before the break fails and sends back its ID. We now know to within a couple thousands of feet where the break is and send a crew there. Very fast, very simple.

Service reps at the phone company often do what is called an MLT when people call in with problems. All the information down to names and addresses come up as mappings to the facilities. Yeah - they find you heap fast and easy.

 

[osan]

The US Empire cannot afford a global war against BTC.

How do you know? On what do you base your assertion? So far as I can see, they can do this without breaking a sweat. But if you think you know something essential, please share. I'm always up for learning new things.

I will add that it is not the US empire - it is the global empire.

 

[Petar]

How do you know? On what do you base your assertion? So far as I can see, they can do this without breaking a sweat. But if you think you know something essential, please share. I'm always up for learning new things.

I will add that it is not the US empire - it is the global empire.

US Empire, UN troops, whatever...

No one in the "free" world can declare total war on BTC without completely losing face.

It would be like sending out the world police to lock down the whole internet.

Not going to happen any time soon.