US judge: Bitcoin is a currency and CAN be regulated

[osan]

US Empire, UN troops, whatever...

No one in the "free" world can declare total war on BTC without completely losing face.

It would be like sending out the world police to lock down the whole internet.

Not going to happen any time soon.

You could be right, but you have not demonstrated why. Thus far you have made only baseless assertions with nothing to back them up. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but it does mean you haven't given a credible demonstration that you are right, either.

If I am correct in my suspicion about the stakes in question, then if Theire very existence comes under threat (in their minds, not necessarily in anyone else's reality) it stands to reason they might throw everything including the kitchen sink at the problem. Were all the Arab states to attack Israel in a concerted and well coordinated fashion, do you not think that believing they had nothing to lose, Israel would nuke the lot of them? I sure as hell would under such conditions. If we're going to be wiped out, we'll be taking as many of you manky toadstools with us as possible. This is a pretty common human psychological response to existential threats.

I do not believe this is the time to start thinking that a wounded beast such as Themme would suddenly find a moral compass in their pockets just as they were being backed into a corner. But perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[FSP-Rebel]

BTC doesn't have to take over anything and the average Joe will always go with the mainstream way of doing things. Think about what percentage of people use Paypal which cuts into what banks make on wire transfers. If and when BTC starts nipping at even Paypal's heels, it will be a huge success and heavily priced. I can appreciate what you've done for a living and those that you know and have come in contact with during your tenure but there isn't some grand conspiracy that is universal throughout the world. For instance, perhaps you haven't been paying much attention to the rise in BTC usage but China is where there has been the biggest uptick recently as BTC has been featured on their state sponsored tv station like a handful of times. If the USgov did outlaw it in whatever way they could, I could just send my funds to a wallet that is hosted by a carrier in another country and then dip and live my life somewhere else. They just can't magically confiscate peoples' funds like one would normally think. And, some of the smartest minds in the cryptographic and mathematical world help in the development of BTC and quite frankly, if the govt did buck up in such an irrational fashion you'd have wikileaks or anonymous mess their shit up in a large way. I'm not worried in the least about what the govt has to say or do about BTC. And even if I did, that's what the Bitcoin Foundation does in terms of complying with national code. Adapt, innovate and overcome.

 

[Petar]

You could be right, but you have not demonstrated why. Thus far you have made only baseless assertions with nothing to back them up. Doesn't mean you're wrong, but it does mean you haven't given a credible demonstration that you are right, either.

If I am correct in my suspicion about the stakes in question, then if Theire very existence comes under threat (in their minds, not necessarily in anyone else's reality) it stands to reason they might throw everything including the kitchen sink at the problem. Were all the Arab states to attack Israel in a concerted and well coordinated fashion, do you not think that believing they had nothing to lose, Israel would nuke the lot of them? I sure as hell would under such conditions. If we're going to be wiped out, we'll be taking as many of you manky toadstools with us as possible. This is a pretty common human psychological response to existential threats.

I do not believe this is the time to start thinking that a wounded beast such as Themme would suddenly find a moral compass in their pockets just as they were being backed into a corner. But perhaps I am mistaken.

Well, you can't exactly demonstrate the future, now can you.

Suffice it to say that the internet itself has become an existential threat to TPTB, but locking the whole thing down commando style just has not been an option so far.

I'm sure that "they" would like to do that, but "they" have clearly weighed their options and decided that it just will not be that simple for the time being.

I am going to say that the genie is thoroughly out of the bottle, and there is no reversing this epoch.

Prometheus comes to mind.

 

[Jackie Moon]

I am going to say that the genie is thoroughly out of the bottle, and there is no reversing this epoch.

That's right. The only real way to stop Bitcoin is to shut down the internet worldwide. And regardless of happens to Bitcoin itself in the future the idea behind Bitcoin is something that I don't think can be stopped.

Like a wise man once said...



Or...

 

[osan]

BTC doesn't have to take over anything and the average Joe will always go with the mainstream way of doing things. Think about what percentage of people use Paypal which cuts into what banks make on wire transfers. If and when BTC starts nipping at even Paypal's heels, it will be a huge success and heavily priced. I can appreciate what you've done for a living and those that you know and have come in contact with during your tenure but there isn't some grand conspiracy that is universal throughout the world. For instance, perhaps you haven't been paying much attention to the rise in BTC usage but China is where there has been the biggest uptick recently as BTC has been featured on their state sponsored tv station like a handful of times. If the USgov did outlaw it in whatever way they could, I could just send my funds to a wallet that is hosted by a carrier in another country and then dip and live my life somewhere else. They just can't magically confiscate peoples' funds like one would normally think. And, some of the smartest minds in the cryptographic and mathematical world help in the development of BTC and quite frankly, if the govt did buck up in such an irrational fashion you'd have wikileaks or anonymous mess their shit up in a large way. I'm not worried in the least about what the govt has to say or do about BTC. And even if I did, that's what the Bitcoin Foundation does in terms of complying with national code. Adapt, innovate and overcome.

This is pretty reasonable and I hope you are right about it, but I would still keep a wary eye on this for awhile to come. Use it, sure - but do not yet go bananas vesting yourself unless you have plenty of cash to burn in which case knock yourself out. Bitcoin is a good idea and that is what worries me about it. To say there is no large conspiracy is not sound, IMO. But perhaps my tin hat needs polishing.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm indifferent. Trendon Shavers (pirate@40) is a gigantic piece of shit. I personally wouldn't mind seeing him behind bars. He stole from people and stealing is a form of aggression against another human being. In a Republic this can still be protected. Otherwise he could create a new username and start a new scam all over again.

But at the same time, people should take responsibility for their own actions and not give their value for someone else to hold without some sort of insurance.

No shit, captain obvious. Deep thinker, you are.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

When people attack bitcoins, do they attack the concept or the actual code and structure? I rarely see attacks on the ladder from those who have read the code.

It's latter, not ladder. It doesn't have steps on it.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I wrote: Bye bye Bitcoin, to which the following responses came:




Irrelevant from an operational/practical standpoint because as with any other currency/money bitcoin is a human artifact used by human beings who suffer under human tyrannies. I will elaborate on this in a bit.



Firstly, let me be clear: I am not attacking anyone or anything. If your words are referring to my comment, then they were ill-considered because you incorrectly assumed that I was attacking it. For the record, Bitcoin is not the problem at hand; government tyranny is.




Is this supposed to be clever? Is there supposed to be some tacit, "everybody is in on it, except maybe you" element at work here? If so, you're showing something of being off the rails and I will explain.



If you do not see the fundamental and serious problem with this, then you do not understand how things work in the world. Firstly, we are talking about a potential global currency and not something comparatively trivial such as a version of an operating system. I've been in the software R&D/development business for 30 years and have managed projects in the hundreds of millions of dollars and crewed directly by hundreds of people and indirectly by thousands. I have lunched with CEOs of some of the largest corporations on the planet and have had thousands of very illuminating conversations and other encounters and experiences in the course of my time in the biz. I have worked on projects for private companies, defense organizations, state governments, and have had fairly intimate doings with federal agencies such as FCC and DoJ, having reported DIRECTLY to them in the course of my duties as an alpha-dog project manager.

For example, if you go do a search for Southwestern Bell's 271 project in 1999 where they went for approval to enter long distance (interLATA) markets, you will see that it was no trivial affair. I was the senior project manager. Companies such as AT&T, SWB, and so forth moved in accord with the findings of the team of which I was the chief.

I list all of this not to brag but to simply illustrate that my fingers do not move over the keyboard as they do willy nilly. I've been all over this industry and the politics of humans that invariably drive it. I've even been called on the carpet and read the riot act by people who would likely have you near wetting yourself were they to turn their ire upon you. This is not bullshit my pal. Believe as you wish, of course, but I know whence I write on certain topics because I've been there and seen and felt and heard and smelled and tasted it all in pretty stiff measures.

Bitcoin is a currency - it may even be money. I have NO problem with bitcoin per se. I do, however, recognize the nature of the bitcoin beast and it is fundamentally no different from that of any other currency in operational terms save in one respect: counterfeiting. I have not read any proofs of the impossibility of counterfeiting a bitcoin, but have taken it on faith for the time being that they are correct, so that is not my issue.

It is the environment in which the currency is used that poses the problem, not the currency itself. This is key to understanding why bitcoins are not safe from the tyrants. So long as Theye have the material means of placing their hands on something material, including magnetic impulse signals on a storage device, they can manipulate it. The reasons should be obvious, but let me state the major one anyway: they hold the power (by whatever virtue) to mandate behavior and the means of punishing those who do not comply with fiat. People on the whole will comply because they are on the average rotten with lassitude, apathy, fear, cowardice, and rank ignorance. Were this not so, the world would be a significantly different place than what we find it to be at this time. This is simple observational reporting.

The US courts have just stuck its nose in the bitcoin tent, and that is all that is needed. So long as the daily operational role of bitcoin activity does not interfere with the power structure, it may be left alone. But if and when Theye decide it is time to intervene, what exactly do you think will get in their way? Joe Mean? Moral principle? Conscience? What? I contend that Theye will be readily able to legislate their ways into the middle of bitcoin operations and effectively take over without so much as giving the appearance of it to Joe and Jane Mean. Theire propaganda machine will do its job and the average dolt will accept the "necessity" of change and that will be the end of it as a pure and untainted currency commodity.

If worse came to worst, they will simply ban the use and attach truly draconian punishments to possession as has been the case in the drug war. But if the issue is significant enough, Theye can ramp up the wick significantly and most people will comply so long as they have the means of feeding and housing themselves. Nature of the beast my friend.



Well, if I am reading your tacit elements right, then apparently you cannot tell because in my case no such thing is the case. Success of bitcoin is not guaranteed by its structure just as the success of our Constitution or the one I wrote as an academic exercise to replace it cannot. The US Constitution contains most of what is needed for good and free living. Ignoring its obvious weaknesses, the contents are in their spirit pretty good, if not perfect. My rewrite is as close to perfect as humanly possible and that is no shit. And yet, were we to adopt it today as the supreme law of the land it would avail us nothing unless we adopted the correct attitude to go along with it. Without the right behaviors in place, structure has no meaning.

Gold can fail as a currency/money because of government regulation and counterfeiting/debasement - both HUMAN activities driven by human attitude and desire.

Paper money can and HAS failed for precisely the same reasons. There is NOTHING about bitcoins that is so fundamentally different that the same fate cannot be realized there as well, save perhaps counterfeiting and that predicates largely on who is in control of the code.

It isn't currency and money that fails - it is HUMANITY that does. Human weakness - the drive to get something for nothing or to wield power over others for whatever ultimate goals one may have in mind. THAT is the hazard that threatens bitcoin, not bitcoin itself.

Doubt me still? What about that 600 tons of "gold" that was heavily salted with tungsten? How safe was that? The point is that anything can be subverted. ANYTHING.




I can speak for nobody else, but in my case you are dead wrong. It would be wonderful to see something emerge that Theye are unable to place hands upon, but thus far there is no indication that that has happened. When bitcoins weather years of sustained regulatory attack, then I will begin to believe otherwise. Until then it remains unproven.



And adept analysis in this particular case is apparently not yours.

Osan, I think you fail to see the point. The code will not allow more bitcoins to be generated. It's simply impossible, so the government can't mandate it. The people arguing with you were simply trying to point out the fact that you obviously don't understand the first thing about bitcoin.

 

[osan]

Well, you can't exactly demonstrate the future, now can you.

That isn't what I asked to demonstrate, but rather the basis of your assertions that provide convincing evidence that the claims are true or at least reasonably likely. That's pretty different from the crystal ball.

Suffice it to say that the internet itself has become an existential threat to TPTB,

Potential existential threat - I agree. I don't think Theye are quite that stupid, though. The manifestations I have seen indicate an almost compulsive thoroughness to explore the possibilities - the strategies and tactics for getting what is desired.

but locking the whole thing down commando style just has not been an option so far.

With "so far" being the key concept. If things get "interesting" enough in some region, those stops can be pulled out. Consider the "Arab spring" - one of the first things done was to squelch the internet. Luckily, those dummies forgot about the phone networks, but next time they may do a better job of sewing things up.

I'm sure that "they" would like to do that, but "they" have clearly weighed their options and decided that it just will not be that simple for the time being.

Difficult to know specifically what is in their minds, but there is little doubt Theye weigh the cost/benefit ratios versus the perceived or even calculated risks and decide largely based on that. But one never wants to pull out such trumps until doing so stands to make the biggest return on the investment. Quashing the internet may be a one-time deal because people might be prepared the next time. Therefore, if Theye are going to play that trump they will want to use it to very profitable effect. I don't see this happening unless as I earlier wrote a actual existential threat presented itself to the self-styled rulers of the globe. I am not suggesting Theye are going to break out the nukes every time some tin-horn protester says something they don't like. That what the Stalins and similar low-rent, two-bit tyrants do and look at how those usually turn out.

I am going to say that the genie is thoroughly out of the bottle, and there is no reversing this epoch.

I certainly agree with you on this point, but what does that ultimately mean? If the genie does not get in Theire way, let him be - otherwise try to control him. Failing that, eliminate him. This is pretty much the standard procedure.

 

[osan]

Osan, I think you fail to see the point. The code will not allow more bitcoins to be generated. It's simply impossible, so the government can't mandate it. The people arguing with you were simply trying to point out the fact that you obviously don't understand the first thing about bitcoin.

And you apparently do not understand the first thing about code. What is put into place can be changed. This is fundamental to software.

 

[kcchiefs6465]

It's latter, not ladder. It doesn't have steps on it.

You are so smart.