Update on Bible Study Shutdown

BeFranklin

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They now have a legal team on their side.

Note: The purpose of this thread is to discuss this news article. It is not to say Christians deserve it, blowback from supporting traditional marriages,
WND is a terriable news source because they report stories like this, etc.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=99455
UPDATE: Deadline set in banned Bible study case
Demand letter warns of 'irreparable' harm from First Amendment violation

Bob Unruh
WorldNetDaily

Code enforcement officials in San Diego who banned a pastor and his wife from holding Bible studies in their home or face fines have taken less than 24 hours to respond to a demand letter from a legal team representing the couple in what could be a major First Amendment dispute.

And now they have a deadline to withdraw statements that lawyers believe already have created an irreparable violation of the First Amendment.

Dean Broyles, the chief of the Western Center for Law & Policy, told WND today the letter was dispatched to Pam Elias, chief of the land use division for the county of San Diego, on Tuesday, and a meeting was held among the parties yesterday.

(Story continues)
 
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Good for them.

They need to fight this, and make it an issue to be heard.
 
"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

This still floors me.
 
Just saw local news coverage of this.

Apparently the reason for the complaint that brought in the county was that all the cars from the people going to the house were blocking up the entire street.

The home owners contest this stating that there were usually around 15 or so people that attend.

However the footage on the news tonight showed the street in question, and it looked like having even 10 cars on it near where the house is would easily block it.

We really have no way of knowing the truth here.

Either way, this is about feuding neighbors and traffic not about the govt persecuting religion
 
Just saw local news coverage of this.

Apparently the reason for the complaint that brought in the county was that all the cars from the people going to the house were blocking up the entire street.

The home owners contest this stating that there were usually around 15 or so people that attend.

However the footage on the news tonight showed the street in question, and it looked like having even 10 cars on it near where the house is would easily block it.

We really have no way of knowing the truth here.

Either way, this is about feuding neighbors and traffic not about the govt persecuting religion

I would agree, except that isn't the line they first took. And so what? Are they blocking driveways? That's easily fixed by calling a toy truck, if not, SOL.
 
I would agree, except that isn't the line they first took. And so what? Are they blocking driveways? That's easily fixed by calling a toy truck, if not, SOL.

I'm not sure how calling a tow truck would work when dealing with a "country" road in comparison to a city road.

Sheriff might have to be there to convince the tow truck it was legit.
 
I'm not sure how calling a tow truck would work when dealing with a "country" road in comparison to a city road.

Sheriff might have to be there to convince the tow truck it was legit.

Not if it's blocking your drive way. I live in the country. I probably wouldn't call a tow truck though, just push the vehicle out of the way. But then again where I live, I could fit 15 cars in my driveway, so no need to park on the street. ;)
 
Well I'm sure cars were not blocking driveways...but perhaps the neighbors were pissed about so many cars being there..and they might have been on the grass...BUT..does this mean you can't have guests at your home that might park 15 cars along the road?

I read a story about a church that was threatened by NOISE ORDINANCE from neighbors who could hear them singing hymns on sundays...this is our ole enemy the devil at work..both of these issues. tones
 
Well I'm sure cars were not blocking driveways...but perhaps the neighbors were pissed about so many cars being there..and they might have been on the grass...BUT..does this mean you can't have guests at your home that might park 15 cars along the road?

I read a story about a church that was threatened by NOISE ORDINANCE from neighbors who could hear them singing hymns on sundays...this is our ole enemy the devil at work..both of these issues. tones

I have worked as an audio engineer for a few churches and I can tell you this isn't a minor issue. During youth/singles events the dB level sometimes got pushed over 110... and with a band including drums/bass that can have some serious impact on the noise for quite a distance.
 
as Paul Harvey says: and now for the rest of the story

Check the the video in the right hand column that says "County Responds To Bible Study Controversy" at this link. http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html#

The house is in a cul de sac, so I would imagine having 15 cars parked there might be an issue with some neighbors gaining access to their driveways and could easily hinder emergency vehicles entering.

The county official interviewed stated the questions asked of the home owners was an attempt to find out what was going on at the house and determine if the event was something that fell under county regulations.

In the defense of the homeowners, it does appear the county might be back pedaling a bit since the home owner was served by the county a month earlier inquiring about the possible business use of their home. The article did not say if the home owners replied to the letter sent by the county.
 
Apparently the reason for the complaint that brought in the county was that all the cars from the people going to the house were blocking up the entire street. The home owners contest this stating that there were usually around 15 or so people that attend. However the footage on the news tonight showed the street in question, and it looked like having even 10 cars on it near where the house is would easily block it.

Block, as in make impassable? If so then the city should have some "No Parking" signs there. But if there's no law about parking there, then it's a city street.
 
Original complaint is about religion, not noise, cars, etc

as Paul Harvey says: and now for the rest of the story

Check the the video in the right hand column that says "County Responds To Bible Study Controversy" at this link. http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html#

The house is in a cul de sac, so I would imagine having 15 cars parked there might be an issue with some neighbors gaining access to their driveways and could easily hinder emergency vehicles entering.

The county official interviewed stated the questions asked of the home owners was an attempt to find out what was going on at the house and determine if the event was something that fell under county regulations.

In the defense of the homeowners, it does appear the county might be back pedaling a bit since the home owner was served by the county a month earlier inquiring about the possible business use of their home. The article did not say if the home owners replied to the letter sent by the county.

The original county complaint was not about too many cars or noise. This also isn't a church, its a bible study.

The letter from Broyles said the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that the loss of First Amendment freedoms, "even for minimal periods of time, unquestionably constitutes irreparable harm."

And it provided a deadline for the county to respond.

"As a result, time is of the essence, and both the Joneses and the WCLP respectfully demand that written confirmation of the county's agreement to permit the Joneses to continue holding their regularly scheduled Bible study in their home without further threat of sanction be provided within five business days of the date of this letter. Should the county fail or refuse to comply, the Joneses are prepared to pursue all available legal remedies, including litigation."

"On April 10, 2009, Good Friday, a female county employee came to the Joneses' residence. The county employee appeared in the front yard and proceeded to take pictures of our clients' home," the letter said. "She noticed the Joneses' daughters in the front yard and asked to speak with their mother. Although she did not provide any paper work or identification, subsequent information obtained by the WCLP leads us to believe that the county employee who went to the Joneses' residence was Code Enforcement Officer Cherie Cham."

"Do you have a regular weekly meeting in your home? Do you sing? Do you say 'amen'?" the official reportedly asked. "Do you say, 'Praise the Lord'?"

She says she was then told, however, that she must stop holding "religious assemblies" until she and her husband obtain a Major Use Permit from the county, a permit that often involves traffic and environmental studies, compliance with parking and sidewalk regulations and costs that top tens of thousands of dollars.

If they fail to pay for the MUP, the county official reportedly warned, the couple would be charged escalating fines beginning at $100, then $200, $500, $1000, "and then it will get ugly."

"Four things become clear when this case is legally analyzed," said the letter. "First, the Joneses' weekly Bible study is not a 'religious assembly' as defined by the county's ordinances rendering the requirement of an MUP inapplicable. Second, the county's order to stop hosting the weekly Bible study is a blatant violation of the Joneses' First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion.

"Third, the order also violates their First Amendment right to peaceably assemble. Fourth, the county's action is a substantial burden on the Joneses' ability to practice their religion in violation of the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act of 2000," the letter said.

He also said the county appeared to be "backing off" the religious assembly angle in favor of considering "other issues," such as parking, to apply in the case.

"Our concern with that is that they're trying to change the aspects of the case," he said. "They want to back out gracefully."


Instead, Broyles said, the citations should be withdrawn and the county should apologize.

"They were targeting our clients' religious exercise," he said.
 
The original county complaint was not about too many cars or noise. This also isn't a church, its a bible study.

I do not understand why you quoted me. Nothing you say contradicts anything I said. I did not say the initial complaint was about cars or noise. I did say it looks as if the county is back pedaling because the initial complaint was concerning if their residence was being used for business use.

Also I never said it was a church. Since you opened this door, it appears the county was trying to determine if they were using their house as a church. Services do not have to be on Sunday for them to be considered church services. This is why the county was asking the questions that they did. They were attempting to identify what was going on in the residence to see if it fell within county regulations.

The county is not witch hunting. They received a complaint and were investigating.
 
Well I'm sure cars were not blocking driveways...but perhaps the neighbors were pissed about so many cars being there..and they might have been on the grass...BUT..does this mean you can't have guests at your home that might park 15 cars along the road?

I read a story about a church that was threatened by NOISE ORDINANCE from neighbors who could hear them singing hymns on sundays...this is our ole enemy the devil at work..both of these issues. tones

No what this is, is a bunch of busy body's trying to stick their nose into the privacy of an individual. Christians are guilty of the same thing, there isn't an innocent group.

I've had so called Christians call the cops on me with a noise complaint several times, they were using them to harass me. It wasn't even me making the noise, I got woke a few times by police knocking on my door, yes woke up I was sound asleep and had to work the next day.
 
What happened to knocking on your neighbors door and asking them what they have going on?

Why automatically bring in the county into it? We have many cars parked in our cul-de-sac, all the time. We've filled up every driveway and the sides of the street before. But we all know each other, and know what is going on with our neighbors. If they have something going on, I usually know and will help(we have extra space so people can park on our property if need be).

I just don't see where the county has a leg to stand on as far as citing them. This should have never been their business in the first place. This could be taken care of with a knock on the door and friendly conversation.

What kind of neighbors do the Pastor and his wife have?
 
I have worked as an audio engineer for a few churches and I can tell you this isn't a minor issue. During youth/singles events the dB level sometimes got pushed over 110... and with a band including drums/bass that can have some serious impact on the noise for quite a distance.

That is just bull.

One of my friends worked as a sound engineer for Metallica, It was his first sound engineering job after he graduated from Columbia. The average Metallica concert produces continuous DB levels of 114-118 DB

I have seen Metallica in concert, my ears rang for 24 hours after it.

I have NEVER seen a church that comes close to Metallica in DB level.
 
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