Universal Healthcare

[SeanEdwards]

Sean, you can catch a nasty disease and die if you are in a hospital, getting treatment forcefully paid for by people you will never know, too. Hospitals are some very nasty places, and some 200,000 people die from infections <i>at</i> hospitals in the US every year.

That's true. Are you trying to argue that we should abandon hospitals and modern medicine because it doesn't work perfectly every time?

You can drink, just don't risk hurting others in the process. You might get cancer from drinking too much, just don't ask me to foot your bill.

And if someone coughs on you, and you catch SARS and die, will you be worried about who pays the bill?

Contagions are the exception, not the rule. In such circumstances, the community should band together and form a defense. There is no reason to give up your health freedom (others pay for your health care --> subject to laws stipulating what you can and cannot do --> only some health care is allowed/payed for) to protect yourself from the small possibility of catching some contagion. When you give up liberty for protection, ...

No, contagions are not the exception. Infectious disease kills millions of people every year. And the real threat of emerging diseases, like avian flu, is infinitely more threatening than any number of cave dwelling towel heads. I saw an estimate, based on fatality figures for avian flu, that a human communicable strain could kill up to 1 billion people worldwide. That virus could mutate any day, and our only defense would be from our health care system.

So your comment about the community banding together to form a defense is exactly right. That is the only hope we have for combatting infectious disease.

This society we have demands that I help pay for the education of other people's children. That's not exactly fair, since they're not technically my responsibility. However, the alternative of creating a society where some segment of the population did not have access to education was deemed harmful to everyone. I see medicine the same way. It's not exactly fair to make me pay for some homeless guy's TB treatment and isolation, but the alternative of letting these infectious people spread plague is not acceptable.

And it's also worth keeping this discussion in perspective. We probably spend more in one month of Baghdad adventures than it would cost to give every person in America reasonable access to medical care for a year or more.

If we can be taxed to pay for schools, fire departments and police, then what is so wrong about being taxed to pay for hospitals?

 

[jjockers]

It's easy. Find a doctor.

Going to a doctor for health is like going to the MSM for news. Take it with a grain of salt, because you're only going to hear partial truths.

Depends on your doctor, of course.

 

[Paul10]

...

 

[jjockers]

That's true. Are you trying to argue that we should abandon hospitals and modern medicine because it doesn't work perfectly every time?

Nope, hospitals have their place. Outbreaks, broken bones, terrible accidents, diseases, etc. High cost procedures and diagnostics. My point was that hospitals are not necessarily the best place to go for all your ailments. There are alternatives.

And if someone coughs on you, and you catch SARS and die, will you be worried about who pays the bill?

Fear tactics do not work on me. I am not living afraid of some potential terrible circumstance.

Should all buildings above 3 stories high have nets surrounding them at various depths so as to protect people in the unfortunate incident that they fell or were pushed? Should I refuse to drive due to the risk associated with it? Should we have our credit cards implanted in our foreheads to reduce the risk of identity theft? Should gps units be installed on all people so, if anything happens, we can be found? The list goes on and on...

Please don't let yourself get caught up by fear tactics.

No, contagions are not the exception. Infectious disease kills millions of people every year. And the real threat of emerging diseases, like avian flu, is infinitely more threatening than any number of cave dwelling towel heads. I saw an estimate, based on fatality figures for avian flu, that a human communicable strain could kill up to 1 billion people worldwide. That virus could mutate any day, and our only defense would be from our health care system.

Again, just fear tactics. How many people die from suicides every year? Should I be concerned for my well-being?

So your comment about the community banding together to form a defense is exactly right. That is the only hope we have for combatting infectious disease.

It can only be done successfully at the local level, not 300million federal level.

And it's also worth keeping this discussion in perspective. We probably spend more in one month of Baghdad adventures than it would cost to give every person in America reasonable access to medical care for a year or more.

That is exactly the attitude that democrats will use to argue for universal health care and more economical turmoil. Two wrongs don't make a right.

If we can be taxed to pay for schools, fire departments and police, then what is so wrong about being taxed to pay for hospitals?

Three wrongs don't make a right.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Insurance is regulated because the companies that start up would just be taking your money and wouldn't be able to fund whatever they promised to.

Then go in and shoot them up. Or sue them.

How about just making all the states good by implementing my plan.

How about...no state?

A GED is easy to get although this again is the STATES that are doing it. Not the federal government. I didn't know how good the GED was until I graduated. I think in New York you need to be 18 to take it but I'm not sure. The hick states at 16. Right now, it's frowned upon by students but in reality it's the best route. You just take the same classes again in college.

So? Who is government to tell me what I need?

What about the poor people?

Find a doctor. Make a payment program. Go to a charity.

Also, obviously elementary school and middle school should still be needed.

According to you.

Do you think most middle schoolers are mature enough to do it themselves if their parents don't care.

Do what themselves?

If ya want to, I got another plan. Make it online classes and it's even less teachers and junk. lol Beat that. Wait, make it so ALL job that are the regular 40 hours switch over to 10 hours for 4 days and teaching at schools 7 hours 4 days a week. Beat that.

How about... nothing

How isn't there enough competition among apartments?

More people than apartments.

The owner of the apartment I live in will try to lower costs to gain profits but still rent it for almost the same amount as everyone else. The whole foundation of this shit has water leaking and molds grow everywhere. I'm surprised the place hasn't been bulldozed. He's a multi-millionaire with tons of well-paid lawyers on his side. Some people here have tried to sue him but failed. The only thing that can fix it is an LVT.

How do you know what he does?

Inflation is only 3% and the tax system is PROGRESSIVE.

Nah. It's much more than 3%. Where are you getting this figure from?

 

[SeanEdwards]

I'd just like to say that that is probably the saddest thing I have ever read on these forums. You can take care of yourself. How do you think people have survived for thousands of years? How do you think we are arguably the most evolved species known to exist? Should we thank our doctors and tax-payer money for keeping us afloat, when our bodies are surely designed to fail? Come on. Your body is a masterpiece that no doctor will ever understand. You can expect no doctor to understand your body better than you can. If you only knew half of what your body was capable of doing on its own, you would skip to the moon and back smiling knowing how independent you truly are from the pharmaceutical industrial complex.

So your prescription for the homeless guy with SARS, is that he should pray? And the unfortunate people who walk to close to him should pray also?

I don't find that a compelling argument at all. And I have to wonder if you've ever been to see a doctor, or taken any medication at all, because if you have, that would make you a giant hypocrite.

I just don't see the jehova's witness health care plan being a viable option.

Oh yeah, and thousands of years ago, people died horrible agonizing deaths to ailments that are today easily treatable. You may see 3000 BC as a golden age for healthcare, but I don't.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Going to a doctor for health is like going to the MSM for news. Take it with a grain of salt, because you're only going to hear partial truths.

Depends on your doctor, of course.

In the systemless society Find a doctor now? If you don't have insurance, you're screwed. I don't have insurance myself. It's a pathetic system. Anyone that calls this system a free market is a god damn idiot.

 

[jjockers]

If we can be taxed to pay for schools, fire departments and police, then what is so wrong about being taxed to pay for hospitals?

They should all be programs which you can opt to give towards, but not force everyone against or unbeknownst to their will.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

So your prescription for the homeless guy with SARS, is that he should pray? And the unfortunate people who walk to close to him should pray also?

I don't find that a compelling argument at all. And I have to wonder if you've ever been to see a doctor, or taken any medication at all, because if you have, that would make you a giant hypocrite.

I just don't see the jehova's witness health care plan being a viable option.

Oh yeah, and thousands of years ago, people died horrible agonizing deaths to ailments that are today easily treatable. You may see 3000 BC as a golden age for healthcare, but I don't.

You've been watching a little bit too mich sicko. Want a doctor? Find one. That's the prescription in the systemless society. In this one? Yeah, we're screwed. I don't have insurance, yet I'm still not a shill for communism. Have some dignity.

 

[SeanEdwards]

Should all buildings above 3 stories high have nets surrounding them at various depths so as to protect people in the unfortunate incident that they fell or were pushed?

A bogus slippery slope argument.

In reality, building codes do exist to provide a reasonable mitigation of risk. Or are you also saying that buildings should not have fire escapes and sprinkler systems? I mean, after all, somebody has to pay for a fire escape, and it might not ever be used! OMG! That makes the building developer into a slave!

Should I refuse to drive due to the risk associated with it?

I bet you have the expectation though that when you do go driving that bridges don't collapse underneath you. I mean hell, how can we force people to PAY TAXES to maintain shared infrastructure! That would be an insane infringement on liberty!

Again, just fear tactics. How many people die from suicides every year? Should I be concerned for my well-being?

I had no idea that suicide could be a contagious disease. Perhaps you could provide a link to corroborate that amazing fact?

 

[jjockers]

So your prescription for the homeless guy with SARS, is that he should pray? And the unfortunate people who walk to close to him should pray also?

Didn't say anything about prayer, but if it works, sure, why not. Anyway, you simply can't hold me accountable for someone else's health problems. I care too much for your personal freedoms. I would never vote to take away your freedoms, because they represent your humanity, and without your humanity, it doesn't matter if you live forever, you're dead. Now, I could be convinced to help someone in trouble, but forcing my hand is downright wrong.

I don't find that a compelling argument at all. And I have to wonder if you've ever been to see a doctor, or taken any medication at all, because if you have, that would make you a giant hypocrite.

I've not been to a doctor since I was 7. I've seen a chiropractor and my mom is a massage therapist. Doubt those 'count'. My fiancee went to the doctor for two diagnostic procedures. I've never in my life taken any prescription medicine, and I've never been prescribed anything.

Hospitals have their place, as I said before. We shouldn't be forced to pay for them. Then we subsidize a certain branch of healthcare, which makes all other forms of healthcare unable to compete. My chiropractor won't be able to compete since he won't be covered on insurance, and all his patients are forced to pay for insurance that they "might as well use" somewhere else.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

A bogus slippery slope argument.

In reality, building codes do exist to provide a reasonable mitigation of risk. Or are you also saying that buildings should not have fire escapes and sprinkler systems? I mean, after all, somebody has to pay for a fire escape, and it might not ever be used! OMG! That makes the building developer into a slave!

Who says we have to live in buildings? Open your mind.

I bet you have the expectation though that when you do go driving that bridges don't collapse underneath you. I mean hell, how can we force people to PAY TAXES to maintain shared infrastructure! That would be an insane infringement on liberty!

So we can't have bridges without taxes? Just can't happen? LOL. We will look upon the other side of a big lake and dream about crossing over. "Oh, if only we had government to do it for us."

 

[jjockers]

A bogus slippery slope argument.

Convenient how you forgot to address the more pertinent issue:

Should we have our credit cards implanted in our foreheads to reduce the risk of identity theft? Should gps units be installed on all people so, if anything happens, we can be found?

In reality, building codes do exist to provide a reasonable mitigation of risk. Or are you also saying that buildings should not have fire escapes and sprinkler systems? I mean, after all, somebody has to pay for a fire escape, and it might not ever be used! OMG! That makes the building developer into a slave!

The key there is reasonable mitigation of risk. Contagions are not common. They are the exception. The burden of proof is on you to convince me otherwise in order to get me to pay for said risk mitigation. Don't use fear tactics. Show me the numbers.

I bet you have the expectation though that when you do go driving that bridges don't collapse underneath you. I mean hell, how can we force people to PAY TAXES to maintain shared infrastructure! That would be an insane infringement on liberty!

Should be an optional fee. People who aren't effected by the bridge should not be forced to pay.

I had no idea that suicide could be a contagious disease. Perhaps you could provide a link to corroborate that amazing fact?

You missed my point: fear tactics can work in many levels. We are convinced via fear to give up our personal freedoms so others can profit and rule indefinitely.

 

[SeanEdwards]

You've been watching a little bit too mich sicko. Want a doctor? Find one. That's the prescription in the systemless society. In this one? Yeah, we're screwed. I don't have insurance, yet I'm still not a shill for communism. Have some dignity.

Shill for communism? Please.

Get some perspective. Our government has put each and every one of us $16,000 in debt in order to run a ridiculous nation building exercise in some desert shithole that I will never visit, and could not possibly care less about. The government builds bridges to nowhere, and hands billions to farmers so they WON'T grow crops.

But you want to cry and pull your hair out over the mere possibility that some poor person might get to see a doctor on your dime? You'd rather that poor person hack TB on you than contribute some taxes so that they get appropriate medical care? That seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

"Ooh I showed that bum! No way he's gonna get any of my money to pay for a doctor! He can just slink away and die, miserable beggar scum! *cough* *cough* Hmm, what's this? Bloody phlegm? Guess I better take care of myself like a real macho anarchist guy! Doctors, pfft. Who needs em! If prayer was good enough medicine for Jesus, then it's good enough for me!"

 

[SeanEdwards]

Anyway, you simply can't hold me accountable for someone else's health problems.

It isn't me that would be holding you accountable. The drug resistant TB bacteria would be holding you accountable. Or the drug resistant staph infection would hold you accountable. While I may be an argumentative internet forum jerkface, I think you'll find me eminetly more reasonable than any of these deadly contagious microorganisms.

Go ahead and tell the SARS virus that you won't be held accountable. I hope that works for you.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Shill for communism? Please.

Get some perspective. Our government has put each and every one of us $16,000 in debt in order to run a ridiculous nation building exercise in some desert shithole that I will never visit, and could not possibly care less about. The government builds bridges to nowhere, and hands billions to farmers so they WON'T grow crops.

But you want to cry and pull your hair out over the mere possibility that some poor person might get to see a doctor on your dime? You'd rather that poor person hack TB on you than contribute some taxes so that they get appropriate medical care? That seems like cutting off your nose, to spite your face.

"Ooh I showed that bum! No way he's gonna get any of my money to pay for a doctor! He can just slink away and die, miserable beggar scum! *cough* *cough* Hmm, what's this? Bloody phlegm? Guess I better take care of myself like a real macho anarchist guy! Doctors, pfft. Who needs em! If prayer was good enough medicine for Jesus, then it's good enough for me!"

What makes you think the quality of care will be any good? Public education currently sucks. You're arguing for communism here, yes, what your proposing is a major focal point of the communist philosophy. Socialized medicine will hand us nothing but a burdensome healthcare system and no way out of it. Then we can all say.. "at least it isn't how it was before," even though many Americans will travel abroad for medical care.

Who said I'm trying to hurt the poor people? A systemless society is what is best for the "poor people."

Here's a scenario in a systemless society:

You get sick. You go out and find yourself a doctor. You make a deal. You get treated. You walk away.

Or you go to the store and buy yourself some Tylenol. Who knows.

People that go to doctors in a free market society are actually contracting freelance doctors for a job. Yes, we may not think of it along these terms now, but yes, that is what you'd be doing. If you don't like one doctor, then go to a different one. Are we going to have a shortage without government? LOL

Live in an anarcho-communist commune? Then visit your local medicine man, or whatever ha

Live in an anarcho-syndicalist society? Go find your uhh local "medical syndicate."

Live in the middle of nowhere? Treat yourself or find a doctor.

Point I'm making: Government is not a necessity in order for people to have medical care. Prove me wrong.

My rhetoric is not anti-poor, it's anti-government. Let's get past your communist propaganda now, okay? To them, if you're not pro-government, you're anti-poor. Don't believe me? Go to the democratic underground or some communist forum. You'll see.

 

[SeanEdwards]

Convenient how you forgot to address the more pertinent issue:

Should we have our credit cards implanted in our foreheads to reduce the risk of identity theft? Should gps units be installed on all people so, if anything happens, we can be found?

Those are unreasonable measures to address a minor threat. Infectious diseases are not a minor threat, and minimal healthcare is not an unreasonable measure.

The key there is reasonable mitigation of risk. Contagions are not common. They are the exception. The burden of proof is on you to convince me otherwise in order to get me to pay for said risk mitigation. Don't use fear tactics. Show me the numbers.

According to this webpage there were 14.7 million deaths due to infectious diseases worldwide in 2002:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease

Now how much money have we spent fighting 'terrorists'? And how many people are terrorists suspected of killing?

Get some perspective.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

Those are unreasonable measures to address a minor threat. Infectious diseases are not a minor threat, and minimal healthcare is not an unreasonable measure.



According to this webpage there were 14.7 million deaths due to infectious diseases worldwide in 2002:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infectious_disease

Now how much money have we spent fighting 'terrorists'? And how many people are terrorists suspected of killing?

Get some perspective.

Oh, really? Then I guess they have failed. Maybe they should have stormed the government buildings with guns.

 

[SeanEdwards]

What makes you think the quality of care will be any good?

What makes you think 'no care' would be better?

Public education currently sucks.

And it's still infinitely better than no education at all.

You're arguing for communism here, yes, what your proposing is a major focal point of the communist philosophy. Socialized medicine will hand us nothing but a burdensome healthcare system and no way out of it. Then we can all say.. "at least it isn't how it was before," even though many Americans will travel abroad for medical care.

And now you've gone down the slippery slope to total government managed healthcare, which was never what I argued for.

Look, we have public schools, paid for with taxes, and there is still a vibrant selection of private schools available. People don't have to leave the country to find an education environment that they find acceptable. I'm saying we need something similar in regards to hospitals. Some of our taxes, instead of being spent on super-stealth-death-bombers, should be spent building community hospitals, and paying doctor's salaries, so that healthcare is more widely available. Because keeping the community free of plague and untimely death is in everyone's self-interest.

I think it's a national defense issue personally. I think TB, SARS, and all that other nasty shit is way more scary than Iran. Crazed mullahs ain't got nothing on these microbes.

Who said I'm trying to hurt the poor people? A systemless society is what is best for the "poor people."

Here's a scenario in a systemless society:

You get sick. You go out and find yourself a doctor. You make a deal. You get treated. You walk away.

Or you go to the store and buy yourself some Tylenol. Who knows.

People that go to doctors in a free market society are actually contracting freelance doctors for a job. Yes, we may not think of it along these terms now, but yes, that is what you'd be doing. If you don't like one doctor, then go to a different one. Are we going to have a shortage without government? LOL

So why not apply that to police? You get robbed, you contract with a cop to track down the guy who robbed you.

Oh yeah, it's because then only wealthy people would have access to justice.

Just try thinking about TB microbes as a kind of criminal, and the doctors are kind of like germ cops. Maybe then you'll understand.

Live in an anarcho-communist commune? Then visit your local medicine man, or whatever ha

Live in an anarcho-syndicalist society? Go find your uhh local "medical syndicate."

Live in the middle of nowhere? Treat yourself or find a doctor.

Point I'm making: Government is not a necessity in order for people to have medical care. Prove me wrong.

My rhetoric is not anti-poor, it's anti-government. Let's get past your communist propaganda now, okay? To them, if you're not pro-government, you're anti-poor. Don't believe me? Go to the democratic underground or some communist forum. You'll see.

And your utopian anti-government vision is just as worthless as their utopian big-government vision. There are very few absolutes in the real world, and while I may respect your liberty, and right to not be bothered, contagious diseases do not.

SARS is not a libertarian microbe.

 

[JosephTheLibertarian]

What makes you think 'no care' would be better?

No government care. However you find your treatment is entirely up to you.

And it's still infinitely better than no education at all.

People are completely and utterly incapable of finding their own pathways in life? We need an assemblyline of bullshit?

And now you've gone down the slippery slope to total government managed healthcare, which was never what I argued for.

Sounds like what you're arguing for.

Look, we have public schools, paid for with taxes, and there is still a vibrant selection of private schools available.

Now they're elitist. Why? Government has been dumbing down the people for a long time now. For a reason.

People don't have to leave the country to find an education environment that they find acceptable.

Most people hate the current system. Americans are becoming increasingly ignorant every year.

I'm saying we need something similar in regards to hospitals.

Same worthless system in hospitals? So, great for cuts and scrapes, horrid for everything else? That pretty much describes our education system. Everyone gets the basics. The rationing out of education, eh?

Some of our taxes, instead of being spent on super-stealth-death-bombers, should be spent building community hospitals, and paying doctor's salaries, so that healthcare is more widely available. Because keeping the community free of plague and untimely death is in everyone's self-interest.

Free of the plague? You're the one living in another century lol.

I think it's a national defense issue personally. I think TB, SARS, and all that other nasty shit is way more scary than Iran. Crazed mullahs ain't got nothing on these microbes.

Oh yeah? I think it's an individual issue. If you know that some disease is going around some community, you get up and you move. Or try to be everyone's savior with your time, money, or both. Your choice.

So why not apply that to police? You get robbed, you contract with a cop to track down the guy who robbed you.

Why even have police? I didn't ask for them.

Oh yeah, it's because then only wealthy people would have access to justice.

Define wealth. All of the Bill Gates in the world would no longer be so privileged once their dollars (or some other currency) are converted into toilet paper.

Just try thinking about TB microbes as a kind of criminal, and the doctors are kind of like germ cops. Maybe then you'll understand.

I don't really care about your pro-statism analogies. Government corrupts, absolute government corrupts absolutely lol. People live. People die. People are born. People fall of cliffs. Welcome to fate. What is the point of involuntary taxation to provide socialized healthcare? You are handing people shit and for what reason? To make yourself feel better? Worry about yourself, then worry about others, preferrably with your own dime.

And your utopian anti-government vision is just as worthless as their utopian big-government vision. There are very few absolutes in the real world, and while I may respect your liberty, and right to not be bothered, contagious diseases do not.

SARS is not a libertarian microbe.

Who said I envision a utopia? I'm talking about reality. Everyone should get up (including me) and go outside to find their own doctors. That's natural. And that's how it should be. And no, I'm not arguing FOR anarcho-capitalism, either I'm just telling you that we don't need more government, I believe the people will be just fine with less. Leaving it to the states is a fine decision.