Two Reformed Baptist arguments against paedobaptism refuted

You're taking me way too seriously. :)

Welcome back BTW.

Nice to be back, I longed for more reasonable company than what I was encountering over at the now defunct DailyPaul.

I'm not a terribly serious person, except when it comes to doctrinal study, so my response was something of an automatic reaction. I know that writing essays (and not the kind that work at U-Haul) is an odd automatic response.
 
I was only arguing in terms of the sacrament of Baptism, and again, I'm approaching this from a Reformed Presbyterian perspective, as I think most of the Reformed presence on RPF that I've seen is Reformed Baptist. As far as mediation in a general sense, you're thinking more like about a millennium ago, since the Protestant Reformation was not successfully able to bridge the gulf between the Western and Eastern Church (which I would argue that the Papacy created, and then further aggravated by forcing the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist upon Sicilian Eastern affiliate churches) on such issues as 2nd Nicaea, certain divergences in Trinitarian doctrine, and so on. We had high hopes that Patriarch Cyril Lucaris (Cyril I) would be successful in mending the divide, but he met with an untimely end, probably by Jesuit assassins.

I am far more of a Historicist than others of the Reformed position, but I think I will probably still be treated with skepticism by my Eastern brothers, if for no other reason than my staunch Augustinian stance on Grace and Predestination.

I would have identified as Reformed Baptist until very recently. But then I decided to write a research paper on infant baptism. The OP is the result :p
 
I would have identified as Reformed Baptist until very recently. But then I decided to write a research paper on infant baptism. The OP is the result :p

It is a very complex subject, but I would definitely argue that scripture, and also the tradition observed by those early church figures in close proximity to the Apostolic Era, heavily favor Infant Baptism where one or both parents are Christians and make a profession to raise the child in the faith.

There is a lot of good literature on Infant Baptism from the Reformed Presbyterian position that has come back into print thanks to the efforts of Still Waters Revival Books, if you have a few bucks to spend, you might want to check out their selection. I would definitely recommend checking out the tract "A Plea For Infant Baptism" (1818) by James Milligan, as it is only $1 and is the most concise source offered on this subject.
 
CHURCH HISTORY

  • Polycarp stated at his martyrdom (167/8 A.D.) that he had been in the "service of Christ" for eighty-six years. Other recorded dates from Polycarp's life make it likely that eighty-six years was his age from birth. Joachim Jeremias, in The Origins of Infant Baptism, concludes the following from these facts: "This shows at any rate that his parents were already Christians, or at least were converted quite soon after his birth. If his parents were pagans at his birth, he would have been baptized with the 'house' at their conversion. But even if his parents were Christians, the words 'service of Christ for eighty-six years' support a baptism soon after his birth rather than one as a child of 'mature years'...for which there is no evidence at all."

  • Jeremias supposes something similar for Polycrates of Ephesus. In 190/91, when writing to Rome concerning the dispute over Easter, Polycrates states that he is "sixty-five years in the Lord." Since this reference to his age is made "because of his concern for his long unimpeachable Christian standing," Jeremias postulates that his baptism "took place soon after birth, rather than that there was an age limit for baptism."

  • Justin Martyr gives still another testimony to the practice of infant baptism by stating that many old men and women of sixty and seventy years of age had been disciples of Christ from childhood.

  • No incident is recorded in the earliest of Christian history which gives evidence that baptism was forbidden to any person on the basis of an age limit, or that the right of a Christian parent to have his children baptized had ever been challenged or renounced.

  • Although several examples exist from the third century of the children of Christians being baptized as infants, in all of the literature and collections of inscriptions from that century there is not a single example of Christian parents delaying the baptism of their children.

  • Neither the Ebionites, Novatians, Arians, Donatists, Montanists, nor any other early heresy refuted infant baptism; many were even noted as practicing it.

  • A significant parallel exists between Jewish proselyte baptism (when pagans were converted to Judaism) and early Christian baptism. The contacts between early Christian baptism and proselyte baptism, with the similarities in terminology, interpretation, symbolism, and the rite itself, are especially notable. What is of greatest interest, however, is that the baptism of the early Church followed that of proselyte baptism, in which children and infants were baptized with the convert's family. This is especially significant when one realizes that the very early Church was made up primarily of converted Jews.

  • There is no evidence of anyone being against infant baptism in the early Church on the grounds that you must first "believe" and be baptized. Tertulian (160-230 A.D.) was the only one who questioned infant baptism. The bulk of his objection, however, was due to his heresy that sin after baptism was almost unforgivable.

  • Cyprian, a leading bishop of North Africa, convened a synod of sixty-six bishops at Carthage to discuss whether or not they felt that infant baptism should be delayed until the eighth day after birth instead of the usual second or third day. Their unanimous decision upheld the universally accepted practice which they had always followed.


EARLY CHURCH FATHERS

A very early Christian teacher, Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.), wrote the following:

"He came to save all through Himself-all I say, who through Him are reborn in God-infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore He passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age, and at the same time becoming for them an example of piety, of righteousness, and of submission; a young man for youths, becoming an example for youths and sanctifying them for the Lord."

Here we read that Jesus Christ came that all might be reborn in God. "How can an infant be reborn if he cannot believe?" a person may ask. I ask in return, "How can an infant be reborn if his Christian parents have refrained from baptizing him?" Is a child who has not reached the "age of accountability/reason" not reborn until he reaches the age of thirteen when he then needs to be reborn?

Origen's (185-254 A.D.) view of baptism is direct and transparent:

"For what is sin? Could a child who has only just been born commit a sin? And yet he has sin for which it is commanded to offer a sacrifice, as Job 14:4 and Psalm 51:5-7 show. For this reason the Church received from the Apostles the tradition to administer baptism to the children also. For the men to whom the secrets of divine mysteries had been entrusted knew that in everyone there were genuine sinful defilements, which had to be washed away with water and the Spirit."

In his Homily on Luke, he again states his beliefs on infant baptism:

"Infants are baptized for the remission of sins. What sins? Whenever have they sinned? In fact, of course, never. And yet: 'No one is free from defilement.' (Job 14:4) But defilement is only put away by the mystery of baptism. That is the reason why infants too are baptized."

Hippolytus' (170-236 A.D.) perception of infant baptism is clear and straightforward as well:

"And first baptize the little ones; and if they can speak for themselves, they shall do so; if not, their parents or other relatives shall speak for them."

There is not one Church Father who denies or even questions the validity of infant baptism. It was in no locality and at no time viewed as something that was created after New Testament times.
 
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SCRIPTURE

Peter's Sermon

The first time the Gospel was ever proclaimed was on the day of Pentecost by the Apostle Peter. In his Spirit-inspired sermon, he made it clear that the blessing and promise of salvation was not just for adults, but for children as well.

"And Peter said to them, 'Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself." (Acts 2:38, 39)

It is also interesting to note that this quote from Peter's Pentecostal sermon does not merely state "...the promise is for you and children," but "for you and your children," which makes it clear that the children mentioned here were young enough to still be considered under the protection and authority of their parents. This is underscored when one understands that it was common for women and men to marry at the very young ages of twelve and thirteen, respectively. From this it becomes reasonable to assume that these children to whom Peter refers were young juveniles or, at the very least, in their preadolescence.

The Baptism of Households

Although this is only indirect Scriptural evidence, the fact that the Bible mentions that entire "households" were baptized does make it seem probable that children and infants were included. "Now I did baptize the household of Stephanas..." (1 Corinthians 1:16) An angel spoke to Cornelius saying, "Send to Joppa, and have Simon, who is called Peter, brought here; and he shall speak words to you by which you will be saved, and all your household." Later, when Peter arrived at Cornelius' household, "...he ordered them to be baptized."(Acts 11:13b, 14; Acts 10:48a) "And when she [Lydia of Thyatira] and her household had been baptized..." (Acts 16:15a) "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household...and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household." (Acts 16:31, 33b) We know that the Greek word "oikos," translated "house" or "household," has traditionally included infants and children in its meaning for several reasons. There is no evidence of this word being used either in secular Greek, Biblical Greek, or in the writing of Hellenistic Judaism in a way which would restrict its meaning only to adults. The Old Testament parallel for "house" carries the sense of the entire family. The Greek translation of the original Hebrew manuscripts (completed in 250 B.C.) uses this word when translating the Hebrew word meaning the complete family (men, women, children, infants). Similarly, we know that the phrase "he and his house" refers to the total family; the Old Testament use of this phrase clearly demonstrates this by specifically mentioning the presence of children and infants at times.

No Baptism of Older Children of Christian Parents Recorded

If the baptism of infants was not acceptable during New Testament times, then when does Scripture mention the alternative-the baptism of the children of Christian parents once they have matured out of infancy? The Bible never gives one example of the baptism of a Christian child as an adult. It is important that Scripture also does not speak of an "age of accountability or reason" (which many pinpoint at 13 years) when a child's capacity to believe the Gospel is developed enough so that he can receive baptism. Neither does the Bible state that every child is in a "suspended state of salvation" until they have reached this age, which one would have to believe if he held to the "age of accountability" theory.

The Saving Power of Christ's Presence in Holy Baptism

Although an opponent of infant baptism, Dr. Jewett, in his book Infant Baptism and the Covenant of Grace, makes a very logical conclusion about baptism if it is understood to be a release of supernatural power:

"...one believes that baptism washes away the guilt of eternal sin, so that any one departing this life without it is in danger of eternal damnation, he will have good reason to conclude that infants should be baptized. In fact, the question of infant baptism can hardly be raised without such a sacramental theology, since an affirmative answer is a foregone conclusion."

Certainly if there were a taint of sin upon each who is born in this world, there would be a need for every person to be cleansed from this impurity before leaving the temporal life. The Bible's "sacramental theology" states that there is such a need since "...through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men." (Romans 5:12) For this reason, "...there are none righteous, not even one" (i.e. not infants). (Romans 3:10) How are these young ones saved from the sin they have received from Adam's race? They are saved through the regenerative power of baptism and the faith of the Church (i.e. the Christian faithful):

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration (baptism) and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)

"Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins." (Acts 2:38)

"Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.'" (John 3:5)

"...when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water, and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." (1 Peter 3:20, 21)

Baptism is not just a symbolic testimony of what God has done in the heart of an adult believer, but is in itself a dynamic means of actually effecting the power of the Gospel (the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ) in a life (Romans 6:4). Christian baptism is the means whereby we encounter and identify with Jesus Christ Himself. This is one of the reasons why Paul explains baptism as the manner in which we genuinely "put on" or "clothe" ourselves with Christ (Galatians 3:27). This is not just a metaphor; the Lord actually transforms a person through his baptism.

The Old Testament Symbols of Salvation and Baptism Include Infants:

Circumcision, the sign of God's covenant between the people of Abraham and Himself, was performed on every male child who was eight days old (Genesis 17:12). Many see a direct parallel between circumcision and Christian baptism in Scriptural passages such as Colossians 2:11, 12: "And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism..." If baptism is the "New Testament circumcision," there can definitely be no objection to "sealing" the infant of a consecrated Christian family in Christ's New Covenant.

Moses' leading his people through the Red Sea is seen as an Old Testament foreshadowing of Christian baptism. The following New Testament passage clearly points to this: "For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them, and that rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:1-4) It is worthwhile to note that "all were baptized" through Moses' leadership in crossing over the Red Sea. He did not leave the infants or children on the shores of Egypt to become prey to the angry armies of Pharaoh because they were not old enough to believe in the promise of the Old Covenant. Rather, entrusted to the arms of their parents' faith, they were carried through the "baptism of Moses."

The saving of Noah's entire family by the ark can also be seen as a prefigurement of a baptism which includes infants. All that needs to be said, as in the case of Moses' passing through the Red Sea, is that the entire family was on board the ark. Why should we leave infants out of the ark of baptism?

Secular Philosophy Redefines "Faith" and "Personhood"

Larry Christenson, in his pamphlet "What About Baptism?", quotes Edmund Schlink (author of The Doctrine of Baptism) as stating that the rejection of infant baptism was based on the secular philosophy of the sixteenth century, which assured man's individuality, and was not the result of a new Scriptural inquiry:

"Belief was seen in rationalistic and volitional terms, as an act of the mind and the will. 'Because an infant cannot think or decide, it cannot have faith, and therefore should not be baptized.' To this day, that is the only argument raised against the validity of infant baptism. One tosses off the sentence as though it were self-evident truth: 'A child can't believe.' But that 'truth,' upon examination, is neither self-evident, nor is it Biblical."

As Christenson goes on to say, faith is not merely a product of reason but relation. It is a relationship of love and trust, a relationship which is not limited to the mind. Some Scriptures which support the possibility of an "infant faith" are these:

"Yet Thou art He who didst bring me forth from the womb; Thou didst make me trust when upon my mother's breast." (Psalm 22:9)

"And whoever causes one of these little ones who believe to stumble, it would be better for him if with a heavy millstone hung around his neck, he had been cast into the sea." (Mark 9:42)

"For behold, when the sound of your greeting [Theotokos] reached my ears [Elizabeth], the baby [John the Baptist] leaped in my womb for joy." (Luke 1:44)
 
It is a very complex subject, but I would definitely argue that scripture, and also the tradition observed by those early church figures in close proximity to the Apostolic Era, heavily favor Infant Baptism where one or both parents are Christians and make a profession to raise the child in the faith.

Not only heavily favor, but it was unanimous! It was not until the sixteenth century in the spirit of rationalism (when faith and belief was unfortunately put on a pedestal of the human mind over the heart) was the validity of infant baptism ever questioned. Anyone of us living prior to then and all the way back to the Apostolic times would have never questioned the grace and validity of infant baptism. Yet, when one strays from the orthodox faith and teachings as handed down by our Christian fathers, then completely new religions emerge which would dumbfound the generations of believers which preceded them.
 
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I was only arguing in terms of the sacrament of Baptism, and again, I'm approaching this from a Reformed Presbyterian perspective, as I think most of the Reformed presence on RPF that I've seen is Reformed Baptist. As far as mediation in a general sense, you're thinking more like about a millennium ago, since the Protestant Reformation was not successfully able to bridge the gulf between the Western and Eastern Church (which I would argue that the Papacy created, and then further aggravated by forcing the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist upon Sicilian Eastern affiliate churches) on such issues as 2nd Nicaea, certain divergences in Trinitarian doctrine, and so on. We had high hopes that Patriarch Cyril Lucaris (Cyril I) would be successful in mending the divide, but he met with an untimely end, probably by Jesuit assassins.

I am far more of a Historicist than others of the Reformed position, but I think I will probably still be treated with skepticism by my Eastern brothers, if for no other reason than my staunch Augustinian stance on Grace and Predestination.

Welcome back!

I would question your statement that the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to bridge the gap between the East and West. The Reformers barely had the East in mind when it branched off from the Roman Church and they certainly did not take a position of trying to reconcile the East and West or bridge any gap (at least, not in practice). In their efforts to curb the Papal abuse of authority and doctrinal errors, they began to formulate their own. The Filioque is one example where they latched onto a Roman error, while Calvinism is one example of how far many strayed from the orthodox and apostolic faith.
 
1. Baptism is not repentance, nor is it exclusively for the purpose of repentance. It is the covenant sign and seal of discipleship (Matthew 28:19-20), and also the New Testament replacement for circumcision (Galatians 3:7-9, 14, 16, 18, 25-26; codified in Acts 8:12). It is also interesting to note that according to Cyprian's account of the Council of Carthage, that an issue was raised specifically regarding whether Baptism should be withheld until the 8th day of a child's life since that was the appointed day for circumcision, or to offer baptism to infants at any time following birth. The decision was unanimously in favor of the latter position.

2. All are fallen in Adam, for all are his seed (save Christ, incarnate of a virgin and the seed of The Father), hence indwelling/original sin. (1 Corinthians 15:22; Romans 5:12)

3. If children are sinless, there would be no stillbirths and all of them would survive abortive attempts by sinning parents. (Romans 6:23; Genesis 2:17)

4. If Baptism does not confer any real spiritual benefit, it has no purpose regardless of age. If there is no sign, there can be no seal, and likewise a sign with no seal is empty. Furthermore, if children are automatically saved from perdition because of one bible verse, the abortion industry is going to have a lot of business once the rest of the world gets wind of this novel revelation.

Excellent post!
 
Not only heavily favor, but it was unanimous! It was not until the sixteenth century in the spirit of rationalism (when faith and belief was unfortunately put on a pedestal of the human mind over the heart) was the validity of infant baptism ever questioned. Anyone of us living prior to then and all the way back to the Apostolic times would have never questioned the grace and validity of infant baptism. Yet, when one strays from the orthodox faith and teachings as handed down by our Christian fathers, then completely new religions emerge which would dumbfound the generations of believers which preceded them.

I should actually revise my original statement, as the point regarding Infant Baptism was unanimous prior to the 16th century, even among schismatic groups like the Donatists and the Manichean heretics. What was not unanimous was the method/mode of Baptism (this is what I had in mind, but it didn't come out correctly, I tend to post via stream of consciousness), as I would argue the scriptures don't expressly command either immersion (the Eastern method) or aspersion/affusion (sprinkling or pouring, the Western method), but I would argue that it tilts towards the latter based on both OT precedent for the sprinkling of the blood of the lamb and also ceremonial washing, though I would argue that immersion is a valid method as it does satisfy the need for the outward signs of water and the expression of orthodox Trinitarian faith.

I would question your statement that the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to bridge the gap between the East and West. The Reformers barely had the East in mind when it branched off from the Roman Church and they certainly did not take a position of trying to reconcile the East and West or bridge any gap (at least, not in practice). In their efforts to curb the Papal abuse of authority and doctrinal errors, they began to formulate their own. The Filioque is one example where they latched onto a Roman error, while Calvinism is one example of how far many strayed from the orthodox and apostolic faith.

The Filioque doctrine is a standing issue between East and West that has not been resolved. I would argue there are some problems with the Eastern objection to it as they end up making The Son overly subordinate to The Father, furthermore the West never denied that the Father has an officially superior role above The Son in terms of office, in fact I believe there was an attempt to accommodate this issue by stating that the Holy Spirit proceeds from The Father, "through" The Son, which denotes the subordinate nature of The Son and also reinforcing Christ's role as mediator between The Father and the church, though this was prior to the Protestant Reformation.

Cyril I (Lucaris) of Constantinople had established close ties with Calvinist Western churches, particularly in Geneva, The Netherlands and England. One could argue that he was primarily interested in creating a bulwark against Jesuit slime who were trying to encroach on the eastern church via Kiev, and I would argue that they had at least some involvement in Cyril's death at the hands of murdering, idolatrous Mohammedans. Calvinists were very interested in in closer ties with the Eastern Church, just as they were interested in encouraging the efforts of Jansenist theologians to reform the Roman Church of her grave errors, but the whole thing fell apart.

As far as Calvinism goes in doctrine, I understand that the Eastern Church has an ingrained hostility towards Augustine of Hippo, and that this hostility feeds into their views on Calvin. My elder has been working on his own English translation of the Cappadocian Fathers, and while this is still an ongoing process, what he has found thus far indicates that there was not a consequential divide between their position on Grace and Atonement and that of Augustine, and that most of this is rooted at a misunderstanding of language since Latin, by its very nature, has a legalistic tone that is not necessarily implicit in the intended meaning of the Latin Fathers in general and Augustine in particular. The confusion of tongues since Babel has made a full reconciliation of language impossible, so analogy is the only means for doctrine to be discerned, and analogies are always going to carry inherent flaws that will no doubt lead to controversy.
 
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I should actually revise my original statement, as the point regarding Infant Baptism was unanimous prior to the 16th century, even among schismatic groups like the Donatists and the Manichean heretics. What was not unanimous was the method/mode of Baptism (this is what I had in mind, but it didn't come out correctly, I tend to post via stream of consciousness), as I would argue the scriptures don't expressly command either immersion (the Eastern method) or aspersion/affusion (sprinkling or pouring, the Western method), but I would argue that it tilts towards the latter based on both OT precedent for the sprinkling of the blood of the lamb and also ceremonial washing, though I would argue that immersion is a valid method as it does satisfy the need for the outward signs of water and the expression of orthodox Trinitarian faith.

Thank you for the informative posts! :) I have a few questions to pick your brain if you don't mind...

Why is it that you believe the sprinkling form of baptism tilts towards the OT practice when traditionally and scripturally full immersion was the method most often used? The Jewish practice of water purification rites were at times with sprinkling with water and other times with full immerision, especially true in the sects at the time of Christ, for example the Essenes. Indeed, the very word 'baptism' means 'immersion' and not sprinkling, and as is seen in the Gospel accounts of St. John the Baptist and every New Testament account of baptism, the practice was universally not with sprinkling but with immersion. I don't discount the validity of the sprinkling method and neither does the Orthodox Church, but why would you believe that the early Church used this method more when the Scritures and the testimony and practice of the early Church was with full body immersion?
 
Thank you for the informative posts! :) I have a few questions to pick your brain if you don't mind...

Why is it that you believe the sprinkling form of baptism tilts towards the OT practice when traditionally and scripturally full immersion was the method most often used? The Jewish practice of water purification rites were at times with sprinkling with water and other times with full immerision, especially true in the sects at the time of Christ, for example the Essenes. Indeed, the very word 'baptism' means 'immersion' and not sprinkling, and as is seen in the Gospel accounts of St. John the Baptist and every New Testament account of baptism, the practice was universally not with sprinkling but with immersion. I don't discount the validity of the sprinkling method and neither does the Orthodox Church, but why would you believe that the early Church used this method more when the Scritures and the testimony and practice of the early Church was with full body immersion?

The reason why I've come to this position is pretty well hashed out at this site, but to get into a few specific examples, the sacramental function of OT sacrifice is accomplished via sprinkling, namely when Moses used the blood of lambs and calves with water, scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book and all the people. This is laid out in Hebrews 9 and 1 Corinthians 10, as noted on the website sourced.

There is a dispute over whether the Greek word Baptizo actually implies immersion as a mode or simply denotes a spiritual effect or process, which is also covered at this website. Granted, the Reformed position does not discount the validity of the immersion method, but challenges the notion of requiring it, which is a common position in Baptist circles, and also argues that practicality would suggest that sprinkling or pouring is a preferred method, particularly in parts of the world where water is scarce. Practicality figures particularly into the matter of the 3,000 baptized at Pentecost, given that it would have polluted Jerusalem's entire water supply.

Inferences of history play pretty heavily into these matters, including the interpretation of scripture. This is generally why I tend to view the Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura through a systematic lens of subordinate authorities, rather than a Biblicist concept of simply quoting the bible without further reference to any authority apart from one's own judgment, something fairly common in American churches of late.
 
The reason why I've come to this position is pretty well hashed out at this site, but to get into a few specific examples, the sacramental function of OT sacrifice is accomplished via sprinkling, namely when Moses used the blood of lambs and calves with water, scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book and all the people. This is laid out in Hebrews 9 and 1 Corinthians 10, as noted on the website sourced.

But that is one instance you are mentioning. There are also plenty of Old Testament accounts which are of complete immersion and submersion, (Noah's flood and the Red Sea parting of Moses quickly comes to mind). Indeed, the Jewish traditions through the ages as was understood during the days of the Messiah was of full immersion and cleansing of the entire flesh. This was the way of the Essenes which was a Jewish sect at the time of Christ, as well as other examples in the Jewish writings.

Until we see the last prophet of the Old Covenant in the person of John the Baptist baptizing faithful men in the Jordon River, and the Apostles doing the same into the regeneration into Christ, immersed in water, as instructed by the Lord. Indeed, in every instance of the entire span of the New Testament historical times, baptisms were done in full immersion and every account of the Gospels and the Epistles is one which is full immersion. This is the apostolic way.

As for the Greek word baptizmo, the word means immersion. There is no controversy to anyone who reads the writings in Greek. As a Greek, I can affirm that the word baptizmo means immersion, (the words for sprinkling is something else) and the historical records dictate this is what it has meant (namely, immersion) since the days the Evangelists wrote about it in the New Testament. Study the etymology and you will find this to be the case.

Granted, the Reformed position does not discount the validity of the immersion method, but challenges the notion of requiring it, ...

But this is where there is the problem. No one is saying that it is required as a rule, but by what authority and/or tradition do the Reformers, especially the later ones, define the mystery of this regeneration? By whose interpretations and authority did many of them change the very doctrines regarding baptism and in particular, infant baptism? Bodily submersion into water was the established sacramental ritual, even though God's grace is not limited or bounded to our rituals. God can save whomever He will through whichever way He wills. Yet, even so, the Biblical way as practiced by the Apostles is bodily immersion into water and rising from the waters.

Of course, sprinkling water, and indeed, their own blood in martyrdom, can give the transformative grace needed in the regeneration in Christ if God so wills.

..which is a common position in Baptist circles, and also argues that practicality would suggest that sprinkling or pouring is a preferred method, particularly in parts of the world where water is scarce. Practicality figures particularly into the matter of the 3,000 baptized at Pentecost, given that it would have polluted Jerusalem's entire water supply.

Oh my dear Christian! Can you believe that the water of Baptism can be polluted!? The 3,000 were baptized in either a lake or a river, as it was practiced for generations after that, until it was more regularly done indoors within baptismal fonts, for the protection of the faithful who would be cut down for simply worshiping publicly as Christians. Later, the Church routinely performed the sacrament in a font and indoors, out of oikonomia for the benefit of the Church and those initiating members of the Church. (For example, for the modesty of the women and out of mercy for those who were just starting in the faith). It was not for lack of pollution, but in order to more efficiently immerse in the graceful waters of the sacrament the masses who began joining the Church in the third and later centuries.

We must remember that the water on the day of Pentecost did not pollute the lands around Jerusalem, but sanctified them and blessed them and prepared them for the Church.

Inferences of history play pretty heavily into these matters, including the interpretation of scripture. This is generally why I tend to view the Protestant concept of Sola Scriptura through a systematic lens of subordinate authorities, rather than a Biblicist concept of simply quoting the bible without further reference to any authority apart from one's own judgment, something fairly common in American churches of late.

No one is saying don't look to a greater authority or telling you not to seek 'apart from one's own judgment'! That is exactly the point and you are much closer to the truth than many, and may the Lord and Savior bless you all the days of your life! :)
 
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But that is one instance you are mentioning. There are also plenty of Old Testament accounts which are of complete immersion and submersion, (Noah's flood and the Red Sea parting of Moses quickly comes to mind). Indeed, the Jewish traditions through the ages as was understood during the days of the Messiah was of full immersion and cleansing of the entire flesh. This was the way of the Essenes which was a Jewish sect at the time of Christ, as well as other examples in the Jewish writings.

In the interest of anyone else reading this who may want to have the different cases of OT sprinkling/pouring spelled out without leaving this website, I will list more of them, though all of them are listed in the website that I linked, and I intended to only offer a small point or two out of said site for purposes of brevity. I will link the site again just of good measure.

1. Hebrews 9:10-22) -- "sprinkling the unclean" even with "the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer" (v 13)
2. 1 Corinthians 10:2 -- Indeed, "he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book and all the people" (v 19). Also, "he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry" (v 21). For "without shedding of blood, is no remission" of sin (v 22)
3. Regarding The Hebrews and the Red Sea, and Noah, neither case involves the Hebrew figures in question being dipped into a body of water, rather they are covered by rain (rain sprinkles, and is occasionally referred to as pouring) or spay and splashes from the water of the Red Sea. The world was condemned in the flood and all of the condemned were submerged, as was the case with Pharaoh's army.
4. Regarding the traditions of the Jews, I think it is important to cite some sources close to the Apostolic Period for the counterpoint.
a. The (42 A.D.) hellenised Jew Philo commented on Numbers 19:2-19 as to how "persons are sprinkled with pure water." There -- "having previously prepared ashes" -- Moses commanded "to pour water upon them." And then -- "moistening some branches of hyssop with the mixture of ashes and water" -- he further commanded "to sprinkle it over those who were to be purified." See too Heb 9:13. Philo also declared that "reason is baptized with the things that come upon it." Then again further: "Outside the outer vestibule [of the 42 A.D. Jewish Temple], at the entrance, is a brazen laver.... Let him who is about to be sprinkled with the water of purification from this laver, remember!"
b. Similarly, around 75 A.D., the Judaist Josephus commented on Ex 29:10-18. Said he: "Within these gates [to the tabernacle], was the vessel for sprinkling ... Therefrom, the priests washed their hands and poured water on their feet.... Moses took some from the blood of the sacrifices, and sprinkled the robes of Aaron himself and his sons -- and sanctified them with spring water." Josephus also declared that in Num 19:4-20 the red "heifer was slain by the high priest, and her blood sprinkled with his finger.... When therefore any persons were defiled by a dead body, they put a little of these ashes into spring water, with hyssop." Then, "baptizing part of these ashes in it, they sprinkled them with it." With this, we may compare the (400f A.D.) Christian Patriarch Cyril of Alexandria. Wrote he: "We have been baptized not with naked water nor with the ashes of the heifer, but with the Holy Spirit!"

Until we see the last prophet of the Old Covenant in the person of John the Baptist baptizing faithful men in the Jordan River, and the Apostles doing the same into the regeneration into Christ, immersed in water, as instructed by the Lord. Indeed, in every instance of the entire span of the New Testament historical times, baptisms were done in full immersion and every account of the Gospels and the Epistles is one which is full immersion. This is the apostolic way.

It should be stated that when I state "immersion", I am referring specifically to the act of dipping/submerging the entire body in a pool of water, not necessarily the act of fully covering with water, which can also be accomplished by pouring. Anyhow, allow me to offer this perspective on the matter:

1 Kings 18:33 involves Elijah, whom John The Baptist is likened to, pouring water onto his sacrifice and then prevails over the priests of Baal, after which comes a great rain.

As for the Greek word baptizmo, the word means immersion. There is no controversy to anyone who reads the writings in Greek. As a Greek, I can affirm that the word baptizmo means immersion, (the words for sprinkling is something else) and the historical records dictate this is what it has meant (namely, immersion) since the days the Evangelists wrote about it in the New Testament. Study the etymology and you will find this to be the case.

The problem is that the original source for the OT is not Greek, furthermore, there are points of interest regarding this translation as it pertains to the oldest Septuagint sources. Consider the following:

In his famous Biblical Thesaurus, Rev. Dr. Hellmuth -- the well-known Professor of Hebrew and Rabbinical Literature -- discusses the meaning of the Hebrew word taabal in the Old Testament. There, he renders it: "dabble, i.e. wetting by little dips or by sprinkling."

Also Dr. Robert Young offers a similar definition of this Biblical word taabal. In his famous Analytical Concordance to the Holy Bible, he renders it: "to moisten" or "besprinkle."

Now this Hebrew word taabal is often translated either as baptein, or as its cognate baptizein. Indeed, taabal is so rendered even in the LXX. That latter work, reputedly compiled by some 'seventy' erudite scholars, is the (270 B.C.) old Greek Septuagint translation of the ancient Hebrew Scriptures.

Those many eminent Hebrews who then produced the Septuagint, all professed the one true religion of Ancient Israel! It is thus very significant that precisely they often used the word baptein -- as their own Greek translation of the Hebrew word taabal.

They did so in many places of Holy Scripture. In some of those places, the word taabal cannot possibly imply even partial im-mersion. Still less can it there imply complete sub-mersion! Nowhere is this clearer than in the Septuagint's translation of Josh 3:15f.

For there, we are told that when the priests came to the Jordan river -- they 'bapt-ed.' The Hebrew here has: ni-tebel-oo. The Greek Septuagint renders this: e-baph-eesan -- 'they bapt-ed.' However, we are also told that the Israelites at that very time "passed through" the Jordan -- "on dry ground." Consequently, they 'bapt-ed' without being submersed!

In almost all Bible texts where it occurs, taabal is consistently associated with dyeing or painting or pouring or sprinkling. Take, for example, Ezk 23:15. There, Ezekiel uses the phrase "dyed attire" -- alias the 'painted turbans' which people then often wore "upon their heads." Now "dyed" translates the Hebrew word tebuul-iym -- derived from taabal. Rightly, the Septuagint itself renders this derivative -- bapt-os!

The word baptein itself -- which frequently translates taabal -- often means "to dye." Indeed, the latter is frequently associated with painting -- by way of sprinkling. Compare too the frequentative baptizein (in Isa 21:4) -- with the word "sprinkle" in Isa 52:15 and 63:3. With the two latter verses, also compare Mt 28:19's "baptize" and Rev 19:13-16's "vesture dyed with blood" (or himation bebammenon haimati). There, "baptize" and "dyed" translate derivatives from baptizein and baptein!

And also consider:

We have seen that the Septuagint often uses the Greek word baptein to translate the Hebrew word taabal. However, it also uses baptein -- often to translate several other Hebrew words tool. Thus, baptein is used to translate boo, (or "put") at Lev. 11:32f.

Baptein is again used to translate the Hebrew word maachats -- at Ps 68:23f. In that context, this implies 'sprinkled' or 'poured out' or 'shed forth.' For just compare Ps 68:18f -- with Acts 1:4-5; 2:1-3; 2:16-18; 2:33 & Eph. 4:4-8f!

Indeed, the Septuagint again uses baptein to translate the Aramaic word yitsetabba' -- at Dan 5:21. There, the latter verb is translated moistened or "[made] wet" -- namely from or by or "with the dew." This is "the dew of heaven" -- the dew from above!

Baptein is further used in the Septuagint's version even of the Apocrypha. The latter was written between the end of the Older and before the beginning of the Newer Testament. Though not infallible like Holy Scripture, the Apocrypha is nevertheless instructive.

Thus, in II Maccabees 1:19-36, we are told that Neemias (alias the great Hebrew leader Nehemiah) commanded that water "be drawn up." The latter phrase translates apo baphantas (from the verb baptein). Nehemiah is said to have done this -- so that the priests could "sprinkle." Indeed -- so that they could "sprinkle with the water" (errhanai tooi hudati).

But this is where there is the problem. No one is saying that it is required as a rule, but by what authority and/or tradition do the Reformers, especially the later ones, define the mystery of this regeneration? By whose interpretations and authority did many of them change the very doctrines regarding baptism and in particular, infant baptism? Bodily submersion into water was the established sacramental ritual, even though God's grace is not limited or bounded to our rituals. God can save whomever He will through whichever way He wills. Yet, even so, the Biblical way as practiced by the Apostles is bodily immersion into water and rising from the waters.

Of course, sprinkling water, and indeed, their own blood in martyrdom, can give the transformative grace needed in the regeneration in Christ if God so wills.

My point regarding the requirement or preference of Baptism by submersion/immersion pertains more to Baptists. This is one of the points that I think needs to be made clear since you may be assuming that the entire "Reformation" was a monolithic group. My very point in constantly using the Baptist position as a counterpoint is to illustrate that the "Reformed" position needs to be further qualified before it can be criticized.

The Anabaptists, who were the first to fly off the reservation on the Baptism of Infants and were a forerunner of the Baptists, were not considered part of what was dubbed the "Magistrate Reformation" and were actually enemies of it that were at war with Luther's Reformation and the concurrent reformers of the same tradition, which was aimed specifically at correcting Papal errors and various non-orthodox superstitions and legalistic additions that Rome had either declared dogma or was otherwise tolerating. The Lutheran Reformation and the following Reformed Churches of England, The Netherlands, Germany, the French Huguenots, the Scottish and Irish Presbyterians, The Waldensians, and Geneva were all mostly on the same page regarding maintaining those points of orthodoxy that were always held throughout the history of the church age. Concurrently, John Calvin, Knox, and the Reformed Presbyterian reformation corrected the Roman error of using unleavened bread in the Eucharist, something that was partly informed by the wisdom of Eastern fathers of the church.

I would like to reiterate that while there are examples of immersion in the Old Testament and that the Westminster Confession of Faith does not condemn the practice, my position is that aspersion/affusion is preferred and that the preference bears out in scripture, though I understand that there is a lengthy tradition of immersion in the East, as noted by Turtillian, Cyprian and several other prominent Eastern fathers.

Oh my dear Christian! Can you believe that the water of Baptism can be polluted!? The 3,000 were baptized in either a lake or a river, as it was practiced for generations after that, until it was more regularly done indoors within baptismal fonts, for the protection of the faithful who would be cut down for simply worshiping publicly as Christians. Later, the Church routinely performed the sacrament in a font and indoors, out of oikonomia for the benefit of the Church and those initiating members of the Church. (For example, for the modesty of the women and out of mercy for those who were just starting in the faith). It was not for lack of pollution, but in order to more efficiently immerse in the graceful waters of the sacrament the masses who began joining the Church in the third and later centuries.

We must remember that the water on the day of Pentecost did not pollute the lands around Jerusalem, but sanctified them and blessed them and prepared them for the Church.

Which river were they dipped in? There is no mention of a specific one used in Acts 2, and it is further not mentioned that they were in the vicinity of a particular lake or pool. It would be just as reasonable to assume that water was drawn and poured or sprinkled on those being baptized, and this bears more similarity to baptismal fonts than the river or pool immersion practice, and was a common practice of Hebrews when washing in their homes.

Furthermore, don't infer that I find something unclean about Baptism in its spiritual sense regardless of the method, my intent was to deal solely with the element of water, not with the promise that it seals. The element itself retains the dirt of the body, and if it is stagnant, will hold it for the next person being washed. This is why showers tend to clean the body better than baths, especially ones where water is shared by multiple persons. The spiritual seal of baptism of cleansing the spirit, is tied to the element of water, but the water still cleans the flesh and does so while living (aka being in motion).

No one is saying don't look to a greater authority or telling you not to seek 'apart from one's own judgment'! That is exactly the point and you are much closer to the truth than many, and may the Lord and Savior bless you all the days of your life! :)

You're not saying it, nor is the Eastern Church stating this, but others on this website have argued this to me via a corrupt understanding of Sola Scriptura, and so my words are intended for them, as they are likely reading our conversation, even if they are not participating.

I thank you for the blessing and return the desire for the Lord to bless your life, and that we both grow in our faith and understanding. :)
 
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I must confess, friend, that I am little schooled on the history of the Presbyterian Church. I haven't much time to delve into the study as inundated I am with work and life's issues and of course in my own living before God. I appreciate your perspective and I welcome and enjoy this discussion we are having. :)

In this spirit I tell you, my brother, that the historical Church which was spread everywhere in the days of the New Testament and which has endured over the course of centuries exists and has alway existed. The belief of that Church is that the Aposltes baptized in immersion just as Christ submerged into the waters and was baptized. Baptism in immersion in water is the apostolic method. This is the faith which was known everywhere, across nations and kingdoms and what the word baptism has meant in the world since those days.

For this reason they baptized in rivers and lakes, and later, in pools and large stone fonts. In the days of the great martyrs, such as under Diocletius and other Roman rulers, the churches which were spread everywhere, in eucharistic and sacramental communion, accepted different variation, due to local customs and traditions. This is the oikonomia of the Church to the struggling people of that day, acting not as a rigid rule maker but as the communion for healing and spiritual grace.

And so, sprinkling very many centuries later was held to have grace as well, out of love of the eastern brothers and the western brothers, by putting all faith in God above as the source and giver of our joy and love in this life.

Around the common Cup, in unity of faith and mind, they did, however, continue to hold certain unifying beliefs, which have endured the ages while the other heretical groups have withered and disappeared except in history books and the vain imaginations of men.

Were there differences in factions, in evangelism and works? Were there nationalists and selfish members? Yes, to all of these, yes! This is the reality of what the Body of Christ must endure, struggling in a fallen and dying world. Tertullian is the first to say that a person should be baptized later, but that is because he heretically thought that if someone does a great sin after Baptism, they were to be excommunicated from the Church and had no hope for repentance and forgiveness and salvation. This heresy was condemned early in the history of the Church.

In this instance, again, God's love and mercy is shown greater then the sin of man. For a man can gravely sin, and still yet die in this world as one of the saved and elect through his repentance and his tears, which are indeed the second and even greater baptism. For this reason humans tear when they cry, so that what might be immersed and submerged in water would come from the very windows of the soul, the eyes. This water too is a vehicle in which the Spirit can cleanse a man from defilement and give forgiveness of sins. This too is the apostolic faith.

And in relation to the original topic of this thread, Tertullian did not discredit infant baptism (which I am happy we agree on, which is of course the orthodox truth).

In the days of Tertullian, the normal practice was immersion in water, not sprinkling. Before him and after him.

We mustn't ignore this consistent witness and this historical truth.

The Church has as Her only Head Jesus Christ.

The faith which is apostolic, orthodox, and katholico (that is, spread everywhere as a whole of the faith of the Church) is the faith which has always been centered around the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ, as the bearers of the Cup and the holy priests of the holy God, both with the clergy and the laity who are the royal priesthood.

There may be political differences, and even opinions regarding the faith, but there are beliefs and practices which have endured the ages and demonstrated truth and proven authority, and for this reason we labor to look into the historical truths and personalities and major events which the body of believers have overcome and professed from the beginning and on. We mustn't ignore the historical Church.

And for this reason I know that the Greek word for baptism has been used and understood (since the days the Gospels were first written) to mean the word "immersion". The Gospels were written in Greek. And the reality is that the Greek word used in the earliest writings Greek Fathers, and in such writings as the Didache and the Cappadocian Fathers, has meant 'immersion'. All the way up until this day. And this is the practice of the earliest Christian cities to this day. Show me where the first mention of 'sprinkling' of water in Christian baptism is found.

We must also remember that there were bodies of water involved in every Scriptural account of baptism that is described. Why do you think Christ the Fisherman spent so much time in His ministry by the shores of Lake Galilee and the Jordan River?

Did the Christians of the first generations all spread everywhere suddenly forget what the apostolic way was or what was meant by the word baptism as written in the Gospels?

After long study and prayer, I can tell you I do not believe the earliest martyrs and leaders were so bla'zai or weak in the faith, especially under the guidance and benefit of the first great Saints of the Church and the Life-Giving Spirit of God. Impossible the Holy Spirit failed! The Church has been since then and has always been! This is not so great a glory to the Church as it is to the glory of God Who has made this so!

Man cannot know or understand in this life fully, and until the Book of Life is opened and the sins of men will be revealed before the entire history of creation, we journey through this world learning to love our neighbor and even our enemies. This too is a death, though not in the waters but in the spirit, but in the grace of self-giving and sacrifice.

Now, we both agree that sprinkling can confer spiritual grace all the way up to transformation and the grace of rebirth in the death and resurrection of Christ. God is not limited to our limitations and works, especially with regards to the mystery of Baptism. He will save whomever He wills and can bring water out of rock, and even out of stones children of Abraham. But the truth is that the method of sprinkling was a western innovative practice that came later. For the earlier practice of immersion of the Christians in the East has remained the same. The New Testament writings prove this, the archeology proves this, as does the iconography, the patristic witness, the hymnology, the prayers, in fact, the worship itself proves it. And so has the meaning of the word baptism in the Greek remained the same. :)

I think you should be a little wary of what you fill your eyes with, which is also what you fill your mind with and eventually your heart. And this is true for me and for everyone else who is reading. Our service to God is one done in love, mercy, and charity for others. This, I believe, we can both agree upon. :). Whatever milliliter amount of water is involved in the ritual, and its purity and temperature, and the total surface area of the human body washed etc, etc, are secondary and certainly not what makes the mystery divine. Rather it is the faith of the Church and the love and power of God
 
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I must say, seeing an Eastern Orthodox Church member arguing for both paedobaptism and immersion is a bit odd to me, since I'm so used to the people who argue for immersion only being baptists who don't believe infant baptisms are valid.

Personally, I think either immersion or sprinkling/pouring are fine.
 
I must say, seeing an Eastern Orthodox Church member arguing for both paedobaptism and immersion is a bit odd to me, since I'm so used to the people who argue for immersion only being baptists who don't believe infant baptisms are valid.

It is funny how there are various combination of beliefs amongst the different faiths, so that you get Orthodox Christians sharing certain doctrines with Baptist while at the same time being in complete opposition with other aspects of the same doctrines! This is a sad reality which divides the Church which should be of one mind and faith, as St. Paul was exhorting to the early Christians. We should follow the teachings handed down by the Apostles and entrusted by the grace-filled ordained Church they instituted through the Holy Spirit.

Paedobaptism and immersion are apostolic practices of the Church and, therefore, they naturally would be the Orthodox position since this Church traces back to the beginning and has survived and passed down these teachings.

Personally, I think either immersion or sprinkling/pouring are fine.

This too is the Orthodox faith, although when conditions allow it, the more proper and traditional method is immersion.
 
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After doing a research paper for school on the subject, I came to the conclusion that infant baptism actually is legitimate. Before reading up on it, there were two potentially compelling baptist arguments that held me back. Here is why I ultimately rejected them, in case this helps anyone who may be thinking about this issue.

The first baptist argument that I have encountered is that circumcision is replaced with regeneration, and not with baptism. Thus, we shouldn't presume that we should baptize our babies based on covenantal continuity, as baptism isn't the covenant sign. Regeneration is otherwise known as "circumcision of the heart". The problem with this argument is that there is an OT command to circumcise the heart, Deut. 10:16. It doesn't make sense to say that the unique sign of the New Covenant existed in the Old Covenant.

The second baptist argument is that the promises to Abraham were really just of a land, and not really spiritual in nature. But Romans 4:11 says that circumcision was a sign of FAITH. The promises to Abraham were spiritual, not just physical.

And then, of course, there's Colossians 2:11-12, which in the light of the above, teaches that circumcision was replaced with baptism. We know from the NT account that both men and women are now included covenentally. But, there's no reason to assume that infants are no longer included covenantally. In fact, Luke 18:15-17 would logically lead us to the conclusion that they are still included covenentally. In addition, we don't need an NT verse to assert that they are included, rather, the burden of proof is on the baptist to prove that they are no longer included.

actually the argument is not one baby was baptized in the bible. NOT ONE. Secondly, babies don't know they are in need of a Savior AND cannot accept Jesus as their personal Savior.
 
It is funny how there are various combination of beliefs amongst the different faiths, so that you get Orthodox Christians sharing certain doctrines with Baptist while at the same time being in complete opposition with other aspects of the same doctrines! This is a sad reality which divides the Church which should be of one mind and faith, as St. Paul was exhorting to the early Christians. We should follow the teachings handed down by the Apostles and entrusted by the grace-filled ordained Church they instituted through the Holy Spirit.

Paedobaptism and immersion are apostolic practices of the Church and, therefore, they naturally would be the Orthodox position since this Church traces back to the beginning and has survived and passed down these teachings.



This too is the Orthodox faith, although when conditions allow it, the more proper and traditional method is immersion.

I am curious what the physical effects of a baby being immersed is, but otherwise I don't strongly disagree.
actually the argument is not one baby was baptized in the bible. NOT ONE. Secondly, babies don't know they are in need of a Savior AND cannot accept Jesus as their personal Savior.

This is the dispensational argument. But this doesn't work covenentally. Especially since multiple households were baptized :p

Plus, the Bible specifically teaches that infants can believe in Christ. See Psalms 22:9.
 
I am curious what the physical effects of a baby being immersed is, but otherwise I don't strongly disagree.

Baptism is a mystery of the Christian faith which involves the acts of men, although it is God Who completes the miracle. It is the death of the old man into the new man and in newness of life. It is the washing away of the ancestral sin and it is for the forgiveness of sin. It is a purification, both physically and spiritually, into one clothed in Christ and graced by His Holy Spirit. We do not know how God does this, we only confess that God does indeed do this, and this is the witness of the Church.

God can do all things and complete all things, and this He does every time a person is baptized in Christ. Thus if there is little water, or a lot of water, it has no bearing by itself on the effectiveness of the regeneration of the baptizand. Water isn't even necessary if it is an emergency and there is no water available.

Faith alone, for example, can be enough for a regeneration in Christ, if the faith is stronger enough and tied to obedience. For if there is water, and it is a little, then sprinkle it on the faithful. If there is much water, then immerse completely in. If there is no water and just sand, then pour the sand over them. God's power is not limited to man's imperfections and immediate surroundings.

The important thing is that we do it with faith, love, and obedience. This is what it means to be a beloved servant.
 
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