Turkey Shoots Down Russian Military Plane Near Syrian Border

[Brian4Liberty]

There are several facts here;

1. Turkey would never shoot down a Russian aircraft if it didn't have NATO backing.

2. The violation was 17 seconds how COULD they viable have been warned for 5 minutes. Look at the radar track Turkey released.. They fly along the border all the time so either Turkey knows exactly what route Russian planes will fly in advance or they are lying.

3. Russian jets pose NO threat AT ALL to Turkey.

Leading me to conclude that Turkey is willingly dragging the rest of the world into a horrible and further escalating conflict.

Not so sure about the first item. Turkey may have done this on their own.

 

[osan]

Wow, Obama just said that Russia and Iran are a coalition of two. He's calling out Russia.

Hooboy. I hope you all have your provisions well stocked. This will probably go nowhere, but the potential is very bad if it does.

Keep your powder dry. You may need it.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

Not so sure about the first item. Turkey may have done this on their own.

So you don't think this is a deliberate attempt of Turkey, not the downing of this aircraft per se but the general shoot-down orders, to get more involvement from NATO countries in a way Turkey likes ? Because that's essentially what you are saying, that it's not related to any further plans they might have or at least without putting words in your mouth, that's what I'm reading.

I think they definitely have a motive way beyond simply defending their airspace/country. They damn well know it's going to have serious consequences.

 

[jllundqu]

So you don't think this is a deliberate attempt of Turkey, not the downing of this aircraft per se but the general shoot-down orders, to get more involvement from NATO countries in a way Turkey likes ? Because that's essentially what you are saying, that it's not related to any further plans they might have or at least without putting words in your mouth, that's what I'm reading.

I think they definitely have a motive way beyond simply defending their airspace/country. They damn well know it's going to have serious consequences.

Agreed. The article says the order to shoot came directly from the Turkish PM.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

Agreed. The article says the order to shoot came directly from the Turkish PM.

Yep, well guys, in case nukes go flying tonight... It's been nice knowing you all. Duck and cover.

 

[Uriel999]

Hooboy. I hope you all have your provisions well stocked. This will probably go nowhere, but the potential is very bad if it does.

Keep your powder dry. You may need it.

Provisions don't matter when you've been vaporized.

I've prepped for hurricanes and unemployment, not nuclear war!

 

[TheTexan]

Yep, well guys, in case nukes go flying tonight... It's been nice knowing you all. Duck and cover.

May the best country win.

(America, obviously)

 

[wizardwatson]

Provisions don't matter when you've been vaporized.

I've prepped for hurricanes and unemployment, not nuclear war!

This is pretty much the only book you need. Blast shelters that can be constructed in less than 3 days and even an ion chamber radiation detector that can be made from stuff around your house.

Nuclear War Survival Skills - Cresson Kearny
www.oism.org/nwss/

If you get the an actual hardcopy of the book, the ion chamber schematics simply need to be photocopied.

 

[TheTexan]

Provisions don't matter when you've been vaporized.

I've prepped for hurricanes and unemployment, not nuclear war!

Should have voted harder. Or prepped harder.

One of the two.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Attacks on parachutists

Attacks on parachutists, in term of the law of war, is when pilots, aircrews, and/or passengers are attacked while descending by parachutes from disabled aircraft during a war. This practice is considered by most militaries around the world to be inhumane, barbaric, and unchivalrous, that it is unnecessary killing (i.e., they would eventually become prisoners of war if parachuted over enemy territory), that it is contrary to fair play, and that military pilots have to be held to a higher standard. Attacking people parachuting from an aircraft in distress is a war crime under Protocol I in addition to the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

So you don't think this is a deliberate attempt of Turkey, not the downing of this aircraft per se but the general shoot-down orders, to get more involvement from NATO countries in a way Turkey likes ? Because that's essentially what you are saying, that it's not related to any further plans they might have or at least without putting words in your mouth, that's what I'm reading.

I think they definitely have a motive way beyond simply defending their airspace/country. They damn well know it's going to have serious consequences.

Agree. I misinterpreted your first point. I read "backing" as prior permission. Reader error.

Yeah, Turkey is pushing the issue, and is depending upon us backing them up after the fact. So far, it seems to have worked perfectly.

 

[luctor-et-emergo]

Attacks on parachutists

Attacks on parachutists, in term of the law of war, is when pilots, aircrews, and/or passengers are attacked while descending by parachutes from disabled aircraft during a war. This practice is considered by most militaries around the world to be inhumane, barbaric, and unchivalrous, that it is unnecessary killing (i.e., they would eventually become prisoners of war if parachuted over enemy territory), that it is contrary to fair play, and that military pilots have to be held to a higher standard. Attacking people parachuting from an aircraft in distress is a war crime under Protocol I in addition to the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

And Erdogan just said that the Turkmens who are fighting in Syria are doing good work... (Heard that on the news here a couple minutes ago)

 

[jllundqu]

In Soviet Thanksgiving....

Turkey Shoots You!

 

[Jan2017]

Attacks on parachutists

. . .considered by most militaries around the world to be inhumane, barbaric, and unchivalrous, that it is unnecessary killing (i.e., they would eventually become prisoners of war if parachuted over enemy territory), . . .

everywhere is someone's enemy territory around there

What about shooting down a rescue helicopter -
after the emergency landing with one lost Russian life the rest are evacuated then the Turkish supported rebels blow it up ?



.

 

[Cleaner44]

Attacks on parachutists

Attacks on parachutists, in term of the law of war, is when pilots, aircrews, and/or passengers are attacked while descending by parachutes from disabled aircraft during a war. This practice is considered by most militaries around the world to be inhumane, barbaric, and unchivalrous, that it is unnecessary killing (i.e., they would eventually become prisoners of war if parachuted over enemy territory), that it is contrary to fair play, and that military pilots have to be held to a higher standard. Attacking people parachuting from an aircraft in distress is a war crime under Protocol I in addition to the 1949 Geneva Conventions.

Pilots that are parachutists are non-combatants. They don't become combatants until they hit the ground, unless they are shooting while coming down. Shooting and killing non-combatants is a war crime. This shit is bad. Entangling alliances are going to be a huge problem here.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Escalation! Two Russian Aircraft Downed in Syria!

Escalation! Two Russian Aircraft Downed in Syria!
Written by Daniel McAdams - Tuesday November 24, 2015

In a sudden and dramatic escalation of the Syria conflict, two Russian aircraft -- a SU-24 fighter jet and a rescue helicopter -- have been downed in Syria. The fighter was shot down by the Turkish military after it claimed an airspace violation, and the rescue helicopter was reportedly shot down by US-backed rebels with US-made and supplied TOW missiles.

The Turks claim the Russian fighter had ventured over Turkish airspace and that it had been warned ten times in five minutes before it was shot down by two US-made F-16 fighters. For its part, the Russian defense ministry denies any Turkish airspace violation and claims it can prove there was no violation. The Russian fighter crashed in Syrian territory and reports suggest at least one pilot is dead. The other may have been captured or killed by US-backed rebels in the area.
...
Even if Turkey's claim of a brief Russian violation of its airspace turns out to be true, we should not forget that Turkey has violated Syrian airspace and territory many times since it decided to participate in the fight to overthrow Syrian president Assad. Turkish fighters have routinely flown over Syria, attacking Syrian territory, against the wishes of the Syrian government. Turkish troops have crossed into Syrian territory on military operations as well. It is also a violation of Syria's sovereignty for Turkey to actively support armed forces seeking to overthrow the legitimate Syrian government -- whether Turkey likes Syria's current leadership or not.
...
Warmongers in the United States have repeatedly called for Russian military planes attacking ISIS and al-Qaeda to be shot down and now it appears they have gotten their wish. Presumed Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton has called for a "no-fly" zone in the region where the Russian plane was shot down, so had she gotten her wish the plane would have been downed with her approval. A "no-fly" zone would only apply to the Russian and Syrian air force attacking ISIS, as ISIS and al-Qaeda have no aircraft.
...
More: http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/arc...alation-two-russian-aircraft-downed-in-syria/

 

[TheNewYorker]

CNN reported about an hour ago on TV that the US had an AWACS plane in the air. My guess is the US knew that the Russians entered Turkish airspace and gave them the green light to shoot it down.

 

[tod evans]

Obama points finger at Russia over jet shoot-down by Turkey

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-at-russia-over-jet-shoot-down-by-turkey.html

President Obama pointed the finger at Russia over its warplane being shot down by Turkey, suggesting the incident might not have happened if Moscow were more concerned with hitting ISIS targets than moderate opposition to Syria’s Bashar Assad – a campaign that puts them dangerously close to the Turkish border.

The president, speaking Tuesday alongside visiting French President Francois Hollande in Washington, stressed that officials are still gathering details on the international incident.

He and Hollande both said they want to prevent an “escalation,” as Obama urged the Russians and Turks to talk to one another.

But Obama also suggested the nature of Russia’s air campaign is contributing to such confrontations.

“I do think that this points to an ongoing problem with the Russian operations,” Obama said. “In the sense that they are operating very close to a Turkish border, and they are going after moderate opposition that are supported by not only Turkey but a wide range of countries.”

He said that if Russia directed its efforts toward the Islamic State, “some of those conflicts, or potentials for mistakes or escalation, are less likely to occur.”

Obama also said Turkey “has a right to defend its territory and its airspace.”

The French president arrived in Washington 11 days after the Paris terror attacks. Part of the purpose of the trip was to urge Obama to work with Russia to build a new coalition to fight the extremists.

Obama said Tuesday he would like to have Russia’s cooperation in the fight against ISIS.

“Them cooperating would be enormously helpful,” Obama said.

But Obama said the challenge right now is Russia’s focus on “propping up Assad” rather than going after ISIS. He called Iran and Russia a “coalition of two” supporting Assad.

The Turkey-Russia incident complicated Hollande’s visit, and his effort to build a broader coalition.

Russian President Vladimir Putin said earlier that Turkey’s decision to shoot down a Russian warplane near Turkey's border with Syria is a "stab in the back" and would have “significant consequences” for its relations with Turkey.

Even before the incident, Hollande faced a tough challenge in getting Obama to agree to a partnership with Moscow. The U.S. is deeply skeptical of Putin's motivations, given his long-standing support for Assad.

The U.S. appeared to be keeping its distance from the overall disagreement. Col. Steve Warren, a spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition, said the jet downing is an "incident between the Russian and Turkish governments."

As for the incident, he said: “We were able to hear everything that was going on. Obviously, you know, these are on open channels. I'm sure there's others who heard it all as well.”

At the press conference, Obama also defended his controversial plan to admit thousands of Syrian refugees into the U.S. The president cited France’s plans to admit 30,000 refugees and suggested the U.S. stay on course to admit thousands as well.

“There have been times in our history, in moments of fear, when we have failed to uphold our highest ideals, and it has been to our lasting regret,” Obama said. “We must uphold our ideals now.”

Obama defended the plan to bring in 10,000 Syrian refugees through next year a week after the House, with support from dozens of Democrats, voted to significantly tighten screening for Syrian and Iraqi refugees amid security concerns. The Senate has not yet voted on the measure.

But Obama defended the current vetting process, saying: “Nobody who sets foot in America goes through more screening than refugees.”

Meanwhile, Obama vowed to be vigilant while urging Americans not to change how they live their lives, in the wake of the Paris terror attacks. “Americans will not be terrorized,” he said.

He also said the U.S. and France “stand united” and said ISIS “cannot be tolerated” and “must be destroyed.”

Given the rash of attacks, Obama is now facing increased pressure at home and abroad to ramp up U.S. efforts to destroy the militants. So far, Obama is resisting calls to either change or significantly escalate his approach, and instead is focused on getting other countries to offer more counterintelligence, humanitarian and military assistance.

The U.S. campaign has centered largely on launching airstrikes, while training and assisting security forces on the ground in Iraq. Efforts to train and equip moderate rebel groups in Syria have struggled, and Obama has authorized the deployment of 50 special operations forces to the country to jumpstart the program.

France has stepped up its airstrikes following the Paris attacks, relying in part on U.S. intelligence to hit targets in Raqqa, the Islamic State group's stronghold in Syria.

Last week, Hollande called for the U.S. and Russia to set aside their policy divisions over Syria and "fight this terrorist army in a broad, single coalition." But his office acknowledges that "coordination" sounds like a far more realistic goal.

From Washington, Hollande will travel to Moscow for meetings with Putin.

While Russia is backing a new diplomatic effort in Syria, Moscow still refuses to support steps that explicitly call for removing Assad from power.

 

[TheNewYorker]

Russia just deployed two missile cruisers in the Syrian sea .. they have been ordered to take down any target that posing danger regardless of their origin nation.

All military contacts with Turkey has been suspended effectively immediately.

Moscow is also recalling it's non-essential staff from the Embassies in Turkey.

This is a very serious situation here. Especially since it's moving so fast. US Intelligence radar now indicates that the Turkish F-16 have entered Syrian Airspace in order to take down the Russian bombers.

I don't think Turkey is getting out of this easily. They really screwed themselves. NATO should temporarily suspend their allegiance with Turkey in order to prevent what it looks like a direct conflict.

 

[Jan2017]

CNN reported about an hour ago on TV that the US had an AWACS plane in the air. My guess is the US knew that the Russians entered Turkish airspace and gave them the green light to shoot it down.

Earlier it was mentioned that the US heard it all . . .(didn't mention AWACS)

Russians were bombing pretty close to the border and came through once/first time and were warned and
circled around and came back around ( even lower at 6100 ft ?) -

Re-entering Turkish airspace again they were shot on in something like 17 seconds