Trump to go after H1B visa abuse next.

[Brian4Liberty]

And what about those of us with real world experience that contradicts the claims you are making? Our experience doesn't count?

You'll have to be more specific. I wasn't aware that you and I had a contradiction.

 

[jmdrake]

You'll have to be more specific. I wasn't aware that you and I had a contradiction.

Sure. My experience is that native born Americans are a tiny minority of graduate students in certain fields. That suggests that H1B visas might really be needed.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Sure. My experience is that native born Americans are a tiny minority of graduate students in certain fields. That suggests that H1B visas might really be needed.

It is probably true that native born Americans are a tiny minority in many graduate programs. I won't disagree with that. But that fact does not mean that H1B visas are necessary.

Why would there be more of a specific groups in graduate programs? Several reasons:

- Graduate programs have never been as popular or required in the US
- Graduate programs are more popular in nations where education is valued and competition is fierce.
- Going to a US University is a foot in the US door for a foreign student. Thus, they have extra incentive.
- Native born Americans assume that those fields will be dominated by specific foreign groups, thus they have a disincentive to go into those specific fields.

As far as demand for H1Bs, most jobs that are taken by H1Bs do not require a graduate degree, but it has become a convenient excuse for preferential hiring of H1Bs or other visa holders over US citizens with a sufficient degree or experience.

I will add that foreign born professors are not usual. It has been part of public University policy and culture for quite a while. I had professors from Taiwan, Egypt, Mexico, Israel, Russia and probably others I can't remember.

 

[jmdrake]

It is probably true that native born Americans are a tiny minority in many graduate programs. I won't disagree with that. But that fact does not mean that H1B visas are necessary.

I said it suggests it. And I gave a specific example. Have you ever tried to build a speech recognition program from scratch? I don't mean making a call to a Google API. I mean actually building the dog gone thing, collecting the training data, building the epochs etc. I have made the attempt. In fact I wasn't even trying to build from scratch so much as I was trying to make a build of the Carnegie Mellon CMU Sphinx library. I gave up after multiple attempts. Some of the stuff Microsoft, Google and others are hiring people for is cutting edge high tech that your average BS in comp sci simply isn't ready to handle. Sure there are H1B visas used for lesser stuff. After all apparently super models come under H1B. So you have your example where H1B may be being abused (not sure if I agree but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) and I have a counter example. Fine.

Why would there be more of a specific groups in graduate programs? Several reasons:

- Graduate programs have never been as popular or required in the US
- Graduate programs are more popular in nations where education is valued and competition is fierce.
- Going to a US University is a foot in the US door for a foreign student. Thus, they have extra incentive.
- Native born Americans assume that those fields will be dominated by specific foreign groups, thus they have a disincentive to go into those specific fields.

Ummmmm.....so? It's doesn't matter whether or not there is a reason for the phenomenon only that it exists. If you are looking for a chemistry phd and most of the are foreign born, that's your pool to pick from.

As far as demand for H1Bs, most jobs that are taken by H1Bs do not require a graduate degree, but it has become a convenient excuse for preferential hiring of H1Bs or other visa holders over US citizens with a sufficient degree or experience.

Here is the other counter fact that I have for you. When I left graduate school I worked for a computer consulting firm here in Nashville. I only met one foreign born programmer out of the 100 I worked for. So....from my experience most of the tech jobs are not going to H1B visa holders. And the one that I met, east Indian, demanded as high of a salary as anybody else. Seriously he was a playboy driving a sports car and spending his money on pretty women. Having a suppressed salary was not at all acceptable to him. Again, not taking away from your experiences. They just don't happen to be mine.

I will add that foreign born professors are not usual. It has been part of public University policy and culture for quite a while. I had professors from Taiwan, Egypt, Mexico, Israel, Russia and probably others I can't remember.

Of course not. Students would complain and enrollment would drop. Like I said nobody wanted to be in a foreign born physics, chemistry or comp sci graduate student's lab because, as smart as they were and as nice as most of them were, you just couldn't understand a freaking word they said. You can get away with that in a lab. You can't get away with that in a lecture class.

 

[juleswin]

I remember when I worked for a mortgage bank and the IT floor was about 50% americans, 50% H1-B visa holders. They were having a big round of layoffs and I found out that every single person being laid off was an American, no visa holders. I asked my boss why, he said because if the H1-b visa holders were laid off, they would have to return home and that was unfair AND the company would have to pay for the plane tickets for them and their families... It wasn't because they were better or indispensable. That company folded after the mortgage bust. good riddance, but I imagine that attitude has only gotten worse in corp America.

fwiw: I was not laid off because I was indispensable, but I saw the way the wind was blowing and quit a few weeks later.

This is a weird story because if what your boss said was true then your boss is a really dumb person. First of all, if there is a contract that says the company has to buy the employees plane ticket back to their home country, then they would have to buy it regardless of when the company closes down. Delaying the inevitable doesn't change a thing.

Also, it is well know that the H1b workers when and if they actually go back to their country, go home with a better looking CV which makes them that much employable and at a higher pay rate. Terminating their contracts is not the worst thing you can do to them, just write them a good referral letter and they be on their way.

 

[juleswin]

80% of people with degrees in any field, are NOT working in that field.

AND- a degree does not mean someone actually has the talent to do a job. A degree in the arts means NOTHING; tech even less. Degrees mean that you have sat in a seat for 4-8 years; it does not mean you're any good in that profession.

Degrees were actually invented to prove that someone who really didn't have the skills/talent could do the job. They could wave a piece of paper that said they knew what they were doing, instead of having any real experience/skill/talent.

Having a degree means that one has the fundamental skills to do a job. With the fundamentals skills and some on the job training, most competent people can be good enough to do the job for their degree. Also talent is not a requirement, ability and knowledge to do a job is really all that is required for most professions.

A degree in art means something, same with a degree in tech or any other field. Contrary to what people without degrees say, a degree means more than the fact that you sat in a classroom for 4 - 8 yrs. It means that for 4 - 8 yrs, your professors have been bombarding you with information and exercises related to your degrees. These are information that you would find very useful while practicing in the field. Information that would help you troubleshoot a problem when there are no specific written instructions to solve your problem. Information that helps you understand why you are doing what you are doing at work

The truth is that degrees has to come with some time spent doing an internship/residency/apprenticeship program to round it up. This is because class room and real life work are not the same thing. A student needs some time to blend the the worlds so he/she can be a professional worker.

Lastly, skill and talent are not the same thing. You can gain skill by sheer hard work and dedication. Talent comes naturally and if only people with natural ability worked in the field that matched their talents, they would be loads of sex workers running around and very few accountants, lawyers, nurses, engineers etc.

 

[Ender]

Having a degree means that one has the fundamental skills to do a job. With the fundamentals skills and some on the job training, most competent people can be good enough to do the job for their degree. Also talent is not a requirement, ability and knowledge to do a job is really all that is required for most professions.

A degree in art means something, same with a degree in tech or any other field. Contrary to what people without degrees say, a degree means more than the fact that you sat in a classroom for 4 - 8 yrs. It means that for 4 - 8 yrs, your professors have been bombarding you with information and exercises related to your degrees. These are information that you would find very useful while practicing in the field. Information that would help you troubleshoot a problem when there are no specific written instructions to solve your problem. Information that helps you understand why you are doing what you are doing at work

The truth is that degrees has to come with some time spent doing an internship/residency/apprenticeship program to round it up. This is because class room and real life work are not the same thing. A student needs some time to blend the the worlds so he/she can be a professional worker.

Lastly, skill and talent are not the same thing. You can gain skill by sheer hard work and dedication. Talent comes naturally and if only people with natural ability worked in the field that matched their talents, they would be loads of sex workers running around and very few accountants, lawyers, nurses, engineers etc.

I have 3 degrees and I don't think they are anything special.

As far as the arts go, I'd rather learn the real business of film or music from someone that is out there and has their butt on the line, than from someone that has only "taught" and never experienced.

 

[juleswin]

58% of H1B visa holders have a masters degree or higher. 100% hold at least a Bachelor's degree or its equivalent.
Contrary to the argument that tech companies are seeking cheap labor, H1B costs employers more. H1B visa engineers earn $5,000 more than their American born engineer counterparts. Additionally, the employer must spend an additional $10,000+ per visa holder for legal fees and costs. Additionally they pay all or a portion of travel and housing relocation to obtain the talent. They pay the added costs because that is what the individual's specialized knowledge, skill, experience commands. That is what the market will bear for the specialized talent. It is also no secret that the bulk of the H1Bs go to individuals form China and India - both very large countries with great science and engineering programs and focus. Together their populations are 1.4 billion. From such a large population to draw upon you will inevitably find exceptionally talented individuals. The H1B visa allows the US to compete for the very top .001% the rest of the world has to offer, and the capped restricted availability of H1Bs means any US company must use the H1B very selectively, which is what we find.

Where are you getting your information from? Do you have a link where it says H1B employees are more expensive than native workers. Also, the $10,000 in legal fees and costs sounds very fishy. This is because most of these companies have legal teams that process these papers for them. I doubt they would pay that much for one employee in legal fees. But again, I reserve judgement until I see your links.

Lastly, I know from experience working in a hospital that employees seem to pay extra for traveling employees to come work for us. Take for example, the hospital pays travel nurses $50 maybe $55 per hour to come in and work for them and they pay regular full time staff an average of $30 per hr. Now, looking at the numbers, it seems like they are over paying the travelers compared to their regular workers. But to the hospital is saving money by not paying the regular worker overtime of $60 per hr and no benefits to the traveler.

So in a weird way, they are saving money by paying a little more for travelers to come in. So I believe this is the sort of deal going on with H1b workers. The companies are still saving money by paying the extra in recruiting fees for their relocation and legal fees. I believe that no company goes out of their way to hire more expensive foreign workers if there are cheaper native workers available for them to hire. It is just simple logic, if they are going through all that trouble to hire them, they are a cheaper alternative.

 

[juleswin]

I have 3 degrees and I don't think they are anything special.

As far as the arts go, I'd rather learn the real business of film or music from someone that is out there and has their butt on the line, than from someone that has only "taught" and never experienced.

Maybe not special but I don't think you consider those degrees as nothing. Also, why do you have 3 degrees at 26? Also, was that before or after you took you vow of poverty as a minister?

 

[Ender]

Maybe not special but I am nothing you don't see them as nothing. Also, why do you have 3 degrees at 26? Also, was that before or after you took you vow of poverty as a minister?

Not sure what you mean about the "nothing" remark- I certainly don't see you as "nothing". You are on of my fav posters.

Got my HS diploma and a BA in Music Dance Theater at 16; Got a Masters in Music at 18; Masters in English at 21.

Unofficially took on a VoP at 18 and became officially ordained at 21.

 

[juleswin]

Not sure what you mean about the "nothing" remark- I certainly don't see you as "nothing". You are on of my fav posters.

Got my HS diploma and a BA in Music Dance Theater at 16; Got a Masters in Music at 18; Masters in English at 21.

Unofficially took on a VoP at 18 and became officially ordained at 21.

Fixed the typo. The reason why I asked about you vow of poverty is that taking the vow can limit the way you utilize your degree. You could have been very aggressive after getting all those degrees and maybe could have started a dance studio, started performing yourself or even gone back into academia. But you ended up not using it for employment.

I am still amazed that you achieved all of that before 22. I was still without a degree at age 22 .

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I said it suggests it. And I gave a specific example. Have you ever tried to build a speech recognition program from scratch? I don't mean making a call to a Google API. I mean actually building the dog gone thing, collecting the training data, building the epochs etc. I have made the attempt. In fact I wasn't even trying to build from scratch so much as I was trying to make a build of the Carnegie Mellon CMU Sphinx library. I gave up after multiple attempts. Some of the stuff Microsoft, Google and others are hiring people for is cutting edge high tech that your average BS in comp sci simply isn't ready to handle. Sure there are H1B visas used for lesser stuff. After all apparently super models come under H1B. So you have your example where H1B may be being abused (not sure if I agree but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) and I have a counter example. Fine.
...
Here is the other counter fact that I have for you. When I left graduate school I worked for a computer consulting firm here in Nashville. I only met one foreign born programmer out of the 100 I worked for. So....from my experience most of the tech jobs are not going to H1B visa holders. And the one that I met, east Indian, demanded as high of a salary as anybody else. Seriously he was a playboy driving a sports car and spending his money on pretty women. Having a suppressed salary was not at all acceptable to him. Again, not taking away from your experiences. They just don't happen to be mine.
...

I still don't think there is a disagreement, Both scenarios exist. There are very good people imported on H1Bs. You have illustrated that. I have seen that (such as the ones I have personally hired, when directed from higher above that the only option was H1B, and that no open worker search was allowed). But it's like the old blind men and the elephant analogy. You are touching the tail and saying it is a snake. Others touch the leg and say it's a tree.

You have seen a few PhD-level H1Bs, integrated into high level working groups. That's appropriate use. Others of us have seen large rooms and entire departments, filled with nothing but H1B workers from India, with very questionable skills and work product. This occurs because of lesser costs, and a pipeline of favoritism. If you are evaluating a program like H1B, and it is being used as intended 1% of the time, it's time to re-evaluate.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Are you in favor of protectionism for goods also? Or just services?

Are humans identical to TVs?

 

[jmdrake]

I still don't think there is a disagreement, Both scenarios exist. There are very good people imported on H1Bs. You have illustrated that. I have seen that (such as the ones I have personally hired, when directed from higher above that the only option was H1B, and that no open worker search was allowed). But it's like the old blind men and the elephant analogy. You are touching the tail and saying it is a snake. Others touch the leg and say it's a tree.

You have seen a few PhD-level H1Bs, integrated into high level working groups. That's appropriate use. Others of us have seen large rooms and entire departments, filled with nothing but H1B workers from India, with very questionable skills and work product. This occurs because of lesser costs, and a pipeline of favoritism. If you are evaluating a program like H1B, and it is being used as intended 1% of the time, it's time to re-evaluate.

I didn't only mention the PhDs. I also mentioned that in my experience on the college level tech workers I only ran into 1 H1B out of 100 native born programmers. You've run into the opposite. Okay. One question that you still haven't answered is this. If H1B mostly a way to get cheap workers then isn't it even cheaper to just offshore? Seriously what can an H1B programmer do living in the U.S. that he can't do remotely living in India? Answer? Not much. And someone living in India can afford to take a much lower salary. Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language, blend in with the culture, (not miss my kids), and live in India and work remotely.

 

[juleswin]

Are humans identical to TVs?

Considering that no 2 humans are identical, even identical twins are not identical considering that they will not experience the same mutations after they start growing. The word you are looking for is analogous and yes TVs and human labour are analogous to each other. The price of both are affected by the same law of demand and supply.

Goods, services, they are all in the same broad category when you are dealing with economics.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

I didn't only mention the PhDs. I also mentioned that in my experience on the college level tech workers I only ran into 1 H1B out of 100 native born programmers. You've run into the opposite. Okay. One question that you still haven't answered is this. If H1B mostly a way to get cheap workers then isn't it even cheaper to just offshore? Seriously what can an H1B programmer do living in the U.S. that he can't do remotely living in India? Answer? Not much. And someone living in India can afford to take a much lower salary. Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language, blend in with the culture, (not miss my kids), and live in India and work remotely.

They have outsourced. Massively. Importing them here is more about control and coordination. Easier to work with people that can meet in person at a moments notice. There is added control when they are here, as they are tied to the employer that provides the visa. And they can supervise them live. Some employers do, and have been caught abusing H1B holders, for example making them work overtime, but telling that not to put it on their time-card, otherwise bye-bye. And when they are working in India, the employer has a retention problem. Having a major US tech company on a resume leads to a better job, so they jump ship quite often.

Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language

English is the universal language in India.

 

[Ender]

Fixed the typo. The reason why I asked about you vow of poverty is that taking the vow can limit the way you utilize your degree. You could have been very aggressive after getting all those degrees and maybe could have started a dance studio, started performing yourself or even gone back into academia. But you ended up not using it for employment.

I am still amazed that you achieved all of that before 22. I was still without a degree at age 22 .

Thanks! I was home-schooled by some brilliant parents who "unschooled" me. I shall be forever grateful.

I am strongly in the arts and especially work with youth, as arts connect the brain and help with whole thinking. I wanted to help my fellowman and not be living in The Matrix- looked like the best option.

 

[Brian4Liberty]

Considering that no 2 humans are identical, even identical twins are not identical considering that they will not experience the same mutations after they start growing. The word you are looking for is analogous and yes TVs and human labour are analogous to each other. The price of both are affected by the same law of demand and supply.

Goods, services, they are all in the same broad category when you are dealing with economics.

Yes, supply and demand does apply.

But does a TV drive to work? Live in a house? Stand in line at the grocery store? Can a human be thrown away when no longer needed? Does a TV get welfare when it's unemployed? Does a TV get free emergency medical care when needed?

The greatest failure in the intersection of society and economics is the attempt to convert everything, included humans, into simple commodities.

 

[jmdrake]

They have outsourced. Massively. Importing them here is more about control and coordination. Easier to work with people that can meet in person at a moments notice.

Sure. But with the higher cost of living employers have to pay more to people who live in the U.S. versus in India.

There is added control when they are here, as they are tied to the employer that provides the visa. And they can supervise them live. Some employers do, and have been caught abusing H1B holders, for example making them work overtime, but telling that not to put it on their time-card, otherwise bye-bye.

You can supervise your foreign workers live by simply moving to India yourself or hiring someone you trust to be in India. Not a problem. As for overtime, what the hell is that? I've never gotten paid overtime as a tech worker and I'm native born and always lived in the U.S. I got comp time when I worked in a university environment. When I worked as a computer consultant they had massively expanded so much that if a project looked like it might require overtime they just threw more employees at it who otherwise would have been "on the bench" taking internal coursework to self improve. When the tech bubble burst they just started laying off people left and right and paired down to a manageable size.

And when they are working in India, the employer has a retention problem. Having a major US tech company on a resume leads to a better job, so they jump ship quite often.

And when that happens viola'! A slot is open for an American born worker if he's positioned to apply for the job.

English is the universal language in India.

Then why can't I understand the people with Indian accents who work call centers? Seriously I used to believe that "everybody speaks English" nonsense before I visited Japan. I don't know if all of those Japanese people were just pulling my leg and acting like the didn't understand what I was saying. India I'm sure is different having been an British colony and all, but I also don't like the idea that they can talk to each other in a language I don't understand. "Hey. Let's pull a prank on the stupid American programmer who never bothered to learn our language."

 

[AZJoe]

Where are you getting your information from? Do you have a link where it says H1B employees are more expensive than native workers. Also, the $10,000 in legal fees and costs sounds very fishy. This is because most of these companies have legal teams that process these papers for them. I doubt they would pay that much for one employee in legal fees. But again, I reserve judgement until I see your links.

Sure. Here's some data links. IT H-1B workers earn more than similarly skilled Americans, and H-1B engineers are paid $5,000 more a year than American born. And for the legal costs, compliance costs with regulations prior to hiring an H-1B can cost a firm $10,000, filing and other fees can cost additional thousands of dollars, and legal fees are steep. While some companies have internal legal departments, most visa processing is outsourced to firms with immigration and visa specialization. Even were a company to utilize an internal legal department, those departments are not free. How many attorneys, legal staff, office space, overhead etc. Even were a company to get as many as 20 H-1Bs a year, allocating the legal costs of a legal department is still very large.

You offer doubt as to why an employer would pay more for specialized talent, but the question is inherently silly. All workers are not identical. The more specialized the position, the more an employer is willing to pay extra for talent. Businesses pay more for specialized talent all the time as routine. Sure for mundane activities like assembling papers, filing, prepping stock ingredients, it may not be cost effective to pay extra for specialized talent. But the more specialized the field and more important to the business' advancement, they will pay top dollar. For instance, companies routinely pay up to $50,000 to high end headhunters and recruiters to find high level executive talent. They pay high level executives 9 figure salaries when they could certainly find executive workers willing to work for a fraction of that. Why would a company pay $600 an hour for a lawyer, when they can certainly find a plethora of lawyers willing to work for $150 per hour. It is because they want the specialized talent. For defense of routine $60,000 injury case, they will find a firm that will bill $120 an hour. For an intellectual property suit that may be worth lots to the company's future, they will pay the $600 an hour or more. It is silly to think that a company that relies on its technical innovation for success would not pay extra to recruit high level engineering talent.