Trump to go after H1B visa abuse next.

CaptainAmerica said:
slave labor contracts going bye bye????? wow. This is incredibly surprising. How many people are aware that visas are issued because corporations know they have special laws imposed on foreigners to make them basically slaves?
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I have a lot of questions about this. Are H1Bs are here against their will? How do H1Bs hurt the economy? Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.
 
Madison320 said:
...Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.
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Good question. Faith in businesses doing what is actually best for the business is totally overblown. Nine out of ten businesses fail. There is a reason for that.

As far as H1Bs hurting a business, I have personally witnessed the following at two different, large tech companies: An H1B is hired at a management/hiring level, and one of their first actions is to hire ~10 H1Bs to work under them. No advertised open positions, no real search for the best employees, just 10 new bodies. Were there kick-backs involved? That was never proven. There is no doubt this was not a standard hiring process. In both instance, these hired H1Bs provided little if any benefit to the business.

At one company, this type of action was common place. That large company went out of business. At the other company, this was "discovered" after ~6 months, and the manager and employees were let go. That company is still in business.

Is this good for business? It depends. There is certainly no hard and fast rule that it is good. The fact that IT is dominated by H1Bs from a specific nation is no accident. It is the result of non-market favoritism and a massive PR campaign by ignorant executives.
 
Brian4Liberty said:
Good question. Faith in businesses doing what is actually best for the business is totally overblown. Nine out of ten businesses fail. There is a reason for that.

As far as H1Bs hurting a business, I have personally witnessed the following at two different, large tech companies: An H1B is hired at a management/hiring level, and one of their first actions is to hire ~10 H1Bs to work under them. No advertised open positions, no real search for the best employees, just 10 new bodies. Were there kick-backs involved? That was never proven. There is no doubt this was not a standard hiring process. In both instance, these hired H1Bs provided little if any benefit to the business.

At one company, this type of action was common place. That large company went out of business. At the other company, this was "discovered" after ~6 months, and the manager and employees were let go. That company is still in business.

Is this good for business? It depends. There is certainly no hard and fast rule that it is good. The fact that IT is dominated by H1Bs from a specific nation is no accident. It is the result of non-market favoritism and a massive PR campaign by ignorant executives.
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Shouldn't we let the business decide what's best for them?
 
Madison320 said:
Shouldn't we let the business decide what's best for them?
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Certainly they are free to make as many bad business decisions as they want until their doors close. But there are limits. If they want to dump toxic waste into the street because that's the cheapest way to do it, a lot of other people will be affected, and will have a problem with it.
 
Madison320 said:
I have a lot of questions about this. Are H1Bs are here against their will? How do H1Bs hurt the economy? Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.
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In the presence of H1B is hard to see an actual salary increase if the corp has an option of bringing in an H1B at the current or even lower rate. Salary suppression by eliminating market forces.
 
Brian4Liberty said:
Your question was "Do they hurt the businesses that hire them?" I gave you an example of where it does hurt them.
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I'm not seeing any rights violations here. And I don't see how it harms the economy in general. This is the classic broken window fallacy. Yes, it's bad for the US programmer who loses his job, but it's good for the business and good for the consumer. Many businesses would go bankrupt if they couldn't hire H1B workers. Or illegal workers for that matter. At least this preserves some US jobs.

Are you in favor of banning H1B visas?
 
timosman said:
In the presence of H1B is hard to see an actual salary increase if the corp has an option of bringing in an H1B at the current or even lower rate. Salary suppression by eliminating market forces.
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Who's rights are being violated by H1Bs?
 
Madison320 said:
I'm not seeing any rights violations here. And I don't see how it harms the economy in general. This is the classic broken window fallacy. Yes, it's bad for the US programmer who loses his job, but it's good for the business and good for the consumer. Many businesses would go bankrupt if they couldn't hire H1B workers. Or illegal workers for that matter. At least this preserves some US jobs.

Are you in favor of banning H1B visas?
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You are changing the subject again. You asked, and I gave an example of how hiring H1Bs had hurt some businesses. It has nothing to do with "rights" violations. As far as hurting the economy in general, I'd say that when a large company goes bankrupt due to poor management, it does effect a wider portion of the economy. Perhaps only locally, but it does have a ripple effect when that many people lose jobs all at once.
 
I'm with Specsrgood on this one. Just another open borders/globalization argument. The middle class has been destroyed in this country because of globalization and endless immigration. I've read for several decades how American programmers are being screwed by these H1b's: people in their late 50's / early 60's who worked hard for a company their whole lives and, as a result, their salaries increased and benefits increased. Then, before retirement, the companies fire them and the only way they can at least even get a month or so of severance pay is if they completely train the foreigners who will be taking their jobs at half the salaries and hardly any benefits.

So older workers then lose their pensions, their jobs, and eventually their homes.

The Disney programmers who all lost their jobs weren't even older I don't think, yet they all were replaced by foreigners willing to work for so much less. The endless influx of foreigners not only fires American tech workers, but for those Americans continuing to work in the field, it drives down wages.

There's almost 3 billion humans in China and India -- many of whom would work for less if they could get a U.S. programming job. In the mean time competent U.S. programmers are being fired, our middle class is shrinking, our coastlines where most of these jobs exist are overpopulated. Open borders for greedy businesses is not the answer.
 
Brian4Liberty said:
You are changing the subject again. You asked, and I gave an example of how hiring H1Bs had hurt some businesses. It has nothing to do with "rights" violations. As far as hurting the economy in general, I'd say that when a large company goes bankrupt due to poor management, it does effect a wider portion of the economy. Perhaps only locally, but it does have a ripple effect when that many people lose jobs all at once.
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Ok, forget about whether it may hurt some businesses. That's irrelevant to where I was going.

My point is you sound like you're against H1Bs. If there are no rights being violated why are you against it? In other words what libertarian basis is there for banning foreigners from legally working here?
 
charrob said:
There's almost 3 billion humans in China and India -- many of whom would work for less if they could get a U.S. programming job. In the mean time competent U.S. programmers are being fired, our middle class is shrinking, our coastlines where most of these jobs exist are overpopulated. Open borders for greedy businesses is not the answer.
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Greedy businesses? Is this still a Ron Paul forum? Did I take a wrong turn?
 
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