Warrior_of_Freedom
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College isn't a scam per se, it's a ripoff.
Tonight on Stossel: The College Scam
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Napoleon's Shadow
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You'll learn things at college hopefully. But mostly it's just gaining credentials from a respected organization to show someone else that you have a specific knowledgebase and the ability to work towards long term goals. In otherwords, someone is lending you their reputation.
Distance learning over the Net and the fluidity of knowledge is now putting everyone into a situation where the cost of a degree for majors that don't require lab time have dropped to almost nothing. Cost will continue to drop until most brick-and-moarter schools close down most of their physical space.
Distance learning over the Net and the fluidity of knowledge is now putting everyone into a situation where the cost of a degree for majors that don't require lab time have dropped to almost nothing. Cost will continue to drop until most brick-and-moarter schools close down most of their physical space.
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surf
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in WA State we have a guaranteed education tuition program (that the state paid $100k to trademark "GET"). in 2000 i ran for state treasurer as a libertarian and teamed up with the republican candidate to challenge the constitutionality of the program because it invested these funds in equities. long-story-short: state just approved a 20% tuition increase that is far outpacing any returns these funds have had and, bottom line, taxpayers will be on the hook for these shortfalls. but who-the-fuck cares, it's for the kids!
back to the original topic - it seems bassackwards that tuitions are rising so fast in this "digital age." technology should lead to cheaper text books, less need for "infrastructure" - i.e new cathedrals of learning, more off-campus housing, etc. instead when i go back the UW i see wonderful workout facilities, beautiful new "wired" dorms, cafeterias open at all hours, and massive construction erecting new buildings to replace the "old" classrooms that i attended.
edit: missed the two posts above prior to writing this. my bad.
back to the original topic - it seems bassackwards that tuitions are rising so fast in this "digital age." technology should lead to cheaper text books, less need for "infrastructure" - i.e new cathedrals of learning, more off-campus housing, etc. instead when i go back the UW i see wonderful workout facilities, beautiful new "wired" dorms, cafeterias open at all hours, and massive construction erecting new buildings to replace the "old" classrooms that i attended.
edit: missed the two posts above prior to writing this. my bad.
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This is the point of making a case for the education bubble, is it not?
Rael
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It annoys me to see so many articles that make the statement that college is not worthwhile. If you choose the right type of degree and a reasonably priced school, college can definitely be worth it. Studies show college educated people make more money and live longer. Instead of just saying college is not worth it, we ought to be teaching people that it is stupid to pay $50,000 to get a sociology degree.
I feel like a broken record.... College isn't a scam; however, the problem is education inflation. The problem is that you need a bachelors degree (in anything) just to qualify for many positions. This leads to everyone getting bachelors degrees—which in turn, drives the value of that education down. Yes, there are some shitty schools; however, there are a lot of very good accredited institutions which teach a great deal. Most of the classes that I have taken used a very interesting learning technique... it's called discussion. Rather than the professor just rambling on incoherently, my classes have involved discourse—taking on the topics in a open discussion which furthers the understanding of the concepts being taught.
Having a bachelors degree—from a general standpoint—means that you are able to think critically, research, and communicate commensurate with four years of higher academics.
—2011 graduate of Indiana University
Having a bachelors degree—from a general standpoint—means that you are able to think critically, research, and communicate commensurate with four years of higher academics.
—2011 graduate of Indiana University
cordscords
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I graduated from high school as a C student. I was lazy, unmotivated, more interested in a number of other things. I took a job as a cashier at a wholesale club after I graduated. I took a half semester off doing that job, and decided to go to my local community college because that's what my parents and friends encouraged me to do. I kept the job getting only 10-15 hours a week, and in between semesters the hours jumped to 20-25 a week. My fiancee was just like me, and ended up doing the same thing I did. It took us 3 years to graduate from 2 year schools. I have a degree in business administration, and my fiancee has one in visual communication. She graduated in the fall of '09, and I graduated in the spring of '10.
Today? We both have our cashier jobs. We didn't make contacts, and our grades were as average as they were in high school. Plus the job market isn’t too friendly right now even if we did earn higher grades and contacts.
Sound sad? Well we're both REALLY big savers. I'm 22, she's 23, and in March we just bought a condo. We were able to get pell grants to cover a good chunk of our college costs so we weren't saddled with a lot of debt (Yes I took a handout. Please don't crucify me!). We still went 5 days a week which meant gas money, overpriced campus food, etc. If we hadn't had those 3 years slowing us down, we could have been more independent much sooner! We could have gotten more hours at work, and not wasted the time & money at college. In fact we now get 30-35 hours a week, have more responsibilities at our job, and got raises because we handled it just fine. That just happened last year. We likely would have gotten the bump in hours and pay if we were able to demonstrate how valuable we were right after high school.
Now we don't live a very luxurious lifestyle. But we pay the mortgage, the gas & electric, cable & internet, and groceries just fine. We're simple. We don't have a desire to travel, move into a mansion, buy an expensive sports car, etc. For us being 30+ hour a week cashiers fits our lifestyle just fine. It's definitely not the most glamorous job in the world, but we actually like the work more than most. We know how to talk to people, get along with our co-workers, and get respect from management.
It's worth noting though that Stossel admitted at the end of his program that the word, "scam", was just TV hype. He said college may indeed be the best fit for you. Maybe you got great grades in high school, have enough family money to pay for college and not be burdened with debt, land a professor who actually does teach you some skills, land a contact, and make it in life due to your college education. It does happen, and might be better than the alternative of just jumping into the workforce and hoping everything works out. But it’s a personal decision everybody has to make. Every individual is different and unique.
For me college was a waste of time & money. But I don’t suggest everybody follows the same path I took. My fiancee and I are ok with working in retail for the foreseeable future to get by fairly comfortably for the lifestyle we’re content with. You might say, “Content? Retail? Is that all you aspire for and to do with your life?” The answer is no, but I honestly wouldn’t be sad if that’s what happens. I personally don’t consider cashiering degrading, I come home to a fiancee who I love, and a condo with a select few things that I enjoy. What’s so terrible about that? I want a job in baseball, but won’t consider myself a failure if I don’t get there.
It’s worth noting that the time I spent working after graduating HS proved to be incredibly helpful paying for the expenses in my first semester. Taking some time off after high school isn’t terrible. You don’t HAVE to go to college right away, which is of course what schools and society try to brainwash you into thinking. They want your $ ASAP. Jumping into a minimum wage job for a year or two and going to college after is perfectly acceptable. You can start paying for school right away and not worry about climbing out of too much debt. In fact I plan on going back to school at some point for sports management, and I will have enough $ saved up for that. If I could go back in time I’d keep my job after high school (graduated from HS at 17), earn the 30-35 hours and the raise much sooner, and do that until I’m 25. I would have had a home sooner, started paying down my mortgage sooner, have even greater savings than I have now, etc. 8 years to save and actually own some stuff. Then at 25, still pretty young, start trying to reach my dreams and accomplish much more. If I fall flat, college didn’t work for me, didn’t start working my way towards my dream job, then things wouldn’t be too bad. I would already own some things, and have very little/no debt.
Today? We both have our cashier jobs. We didn't make contacts, and our grades were as average as they were in high school. Plus the job market isn’t too friendly right now even if we did earn higher grades and contacts.
Sound sad? Well we're both REALLY big savers. I'm 22, she's 23, and in March we just bought a condo. We were able to get pell grants to cover a good chunk of our college costs so we weren't saddled with a lot of debt (Yes I took a handout. Please don't crucify me!). We still went 5 days a week which meant gas money, overpriced campus food, etc. If we hadn't had those 3 years slowing us down, we could have been more independent much sooner! We could have gotten more hours at work, and not wasted the time & money at college. In fact we now get 30-35 hours a week, have more responsibilities at our job, and got raises because we handled it just fine. That just happened last year. We likely would have gotten the bump in hours and pay if we were able to demonstrate how valuable we were right after high school.
Now we don't live a very luxurious lifestyle. But we pay the mortgage, the gas & electric, cable & internet, and groceries just fine. We're simple. We don't have a desire to travel, move into a mansion, buy an expensive sports car, etc. For us being 30+ hour a week cashiers fits our lifestyle just fine. It's definitely not the most glamorous job in the world, but we actually like the work more than most. We know how to talk to people, get along with our co-workers, and get respect from management.
It's worth noting though that Stossel admitted at the end of his program that the word, "scam", was just TV hype. He said college may indeed be the best fit for you. Maybe you got great grades in high school, have enough family money to pay for college and not be burdened with debt, land a professor who actually does teach you some skills, land a contact, and make it in life due to your college education. It does happen, and might be better than the alternative of just jumping into the workforce and hoping everything works out. But it’s a personal decision everybody has to make. Every individual is different and unique.
For me college was a waste of time & money. But I don’t suggest everybody follows the same path I took. My fiancee and I are ok with working in retail for the foreseeable future to get by fairly comfortably for the lifestyle we’re content with. You might say, “Content? Retail? Is that all you aspire for and to do with your life?” The answer is no, but I honestly wouldn’t be sad if that’s what happens. I personally don’t consider cashiering degrading, I come home to a fiancee who I love, and a condo with a select few things that I enjoy. What’s so terrible about that? I want a job in baseball, but won’t consider myself a failure if I don’t get there.
It’s worth noting that the time I spent working after graduating HS proved to be incredibly helpful paying for the expenses in my first semester. Taking some time off after high school isn’t terrible. You don’t HAVE to go to college right away, which is of course what schools and society try to brainwash you into thinking. They want your $ ASAP. Jumping into a minimum wage job for a year or two and going to college after is perfectly acceptable. You can start paying for school right away and not worry about climbing out of too much debt. In fact I plan on going back to school at some point for sports management, and I will have enough $ saved up for that. If I could go back in time I’d keep my job after high school (graduated from HS at 17), earn the 30-35 hours and the raise much sooner, and do that until I’m 25. I would have had a home sooner, started paying down my mortgage sooner, have even greater savings than I have now, etc. 8 years to save and actually own some stuff. Then at 25, still pretty young, start trying to reach my dreams and accomplish much more. If I fall flat, college didn’t work for me, didn’t start working my way towards my dream job, then things wouldn’t be too bad. I would already own some things, and have very little/no debt.
BamaAla
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I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to college, but I wouldn't encourage anyone to borrow tons of money to pay for a degree that doesn't (almost) guarantee a decent income.
I loved my time at the University of Alabama especially after we hired Saban and won a national championship; Tuscaloosa has to be the best place on planet Earth during the fall when Bama is playing good ball. I met tons of great people, learned a lot, and got the opportunity to study abroad in Sweden. I wouldn't change a thing about my college experience.
With that said, my parents paid for every thing. I lived in the nicest apartments, took tons of electives, partied hard, and never had to have a job. For people in my situation, I think college is a great thing; however, if you're not in that position, borrowing and working for a political science/history degree might not be the best thing.
I loved my time at the University of Alabama especially after we hired Saban and won a national championship; Tuscaloosa has to be the best place on planet Earth during the fall when Bama is playing good ball. I met tons of great people, learned a lot, and got the opportunity to study abroad in Sweden. I wouldn't change a thing about my college experience.
With that said, my parents paid for every thing. I lived in the nicest apartments, took tons of electives, partied hard, and never had to have a job. For people in my situation, I think college is a great thing; however, if you're not in that position, borrowing and working for a political science/history degree might not be the best thing.
Son of Detroit
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Second to Ann Arbor when the winningest college football team in America is playing well.
L
loveshiscountry
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Generally speaking, people who graduated high school with high GPAs earn more money than people who graduated with low GPAs.
libertarian4321
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College is NOT a scam, but you need to use your head before you go.
You can't fart around in college collecting a worthless degree that will get you no job or a low paying job (e.g. sociology)- especially if you are going to a private (expensive) school and don't have scholarships.
Go in with a PLAN.
Get a degree that will allow you to earn good money. Pay as little as you can while still getting a good quality education- get scholarships, work while in college, whatever it takes to NOT leave with ridiculous amounts of debt.
I've seen a lot of comments about starting at a community college or "testing out" (CLEP, etc). Be aware that those things may work if you go to a lower tier state school, but that your community college credits will likely NOT transfer into MIT (and there is almost no chance you are going to "CLEP" into a school of that caliber)- you need to know this stuff in advance- don't spend 2 years at Lower Bumscrew County Community College then find yourself unable to transfer any credits to a quality 4 year school.
You can't fart around in college collecting a worthless degree that will get you no job or a low paying job (e.g. sociology)- especially if you are going to a private (expensive) school and don't have scholarships.
Go in with a PLAN.
Get a degree that will allow you to earn good money. Pay as little as you can while still getting a good quality education- get scholarships, work while in college, whatever it takes to NOT leave with ridiculous amounts of debt.
I've seen a lot of comments about starting at a community college or "testing out" (CLEP, etc). Be aware that those things may work if you go to a lower tier state school, but that your community college credits will likely NOT transfer into MIT (and there is almost no chance you are going to "CLEP" into a school of that caliber)- you need to know this stuff in advance- don't spend 2 years at Lower Bumscrew County Community College then find yourself unable to transfer any credits to a quality 4 year school.
torchbearer
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college is a scam in the sense that everyone tells you that you need a degree to get a good job.
i got my degree, and all i've gotten is a huge bill. meanwhile, the guys who made below 16 on the ACT, went to trade school and are now making way more than i'll ever make. they don't have student loans. but they do have nice homes and plenty of assets.
no one was telling anyone, you need to go to trade school to get a good job.
think about it- every high school grad gets a bachelors- how much is that degree worth in the job market?
i learned more about my studies once i got out of college.
now i work on computers. a skill i had before i went to college. i feel like i got scammed.
i got my degree, and all i've gotten is a huge bill. meanwhile, the guys who made below 16 on the ACT, went to trade school and are now making way more than i'll ever make. they don't have student loans. but they do have nice homes and plenty of assets.
no one was telling anyone, you need to go to trade school to get a good job.
think about it- every high school grad gets a bachelors- how much is that degree worth in the job market?
i learned more about my studies once i got out of college.
now i work on computers. a skill i had before i went to college. i feel like i got scammed.
zerosdontcount
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That tube is not about college...
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thanks. fixed.
On the job learning and training is wonderful. I am a CSR for a massive facility management company. Entry level position plus some OT has me raking in 45K a year learning A LOT about maintining real estate and many other things.
I am 1/3 done a degree at the University of Toronto but I left. I could not continue raking up debt to finance it and I knew in my gut the massive debt would not be worth it. I may go back, but no time soon.
I'd like to work at this company or it's competitor for 5-15 years and accrue the needed capital so that I can run my own facility management company. By that I mean investment grade real estate to rent out and enter semi retirement by the time I'm 40, with mainting my rental properties as my sole real "job".
I'd say that roughly 2/3 of college/university students are walking themselves into a trap. The other 1/3 are going to the right way.
I am 1/3 done a degree at the University of Toronto but I left. I could not continue raking up debt to finance it and I knew in my gut the massive debt would not be worth it. I may go back, but no time soon.
I'd like to work at this company or it's competitor for 5-15 years and accrue the needed capital so that I can run my own facility management company. By that I mean investment grade real estate to rent out and enter semi retirement by the time I'm 40, with mainting my rental properties as my sole real "job".
I'd say that roughly 2/3 of college/university students are walking themselves into a trap. The other 1/3 are going to the right way.
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Rishinfreakapotamus
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Is college not similar to other types of lobbying? Colleges lobby for more funding and more subsidies and more guaranteed money form government in return for votes for the politicians that provide them it? It's a big market to garner votes, students and faculty included.
Yeah, because the majority of colleges are publicly-funded.
Wait, they aren't.
heavenlyboy34
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Got some statistics to back that up? I was under the impression that most brick and mortar universities/colleges are state schools and get public money. They do in Arizona. Even Ivy League schools get government grants, IIRC.
heavenlyboy34
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QFT, +a zillion
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