Tom Woods and Lew Rockwell tear into Rand

Ron is very libertarian on abortion.

Ron is against strong immigration barriers,

On gay marriage,

And you're going to have to be more clear about what Ron's "judiciary" issues are

Reasonable people can differ on the issue, but it is factually correct to say the standard libertarian view is to be pro-choice. That was Ayn Rand's view, Milton Friedman's view, and Murray Rothbard's view. That covers the leaders of the major wings of libertarianism.

He was all over the place on immigration. He voted for the border fence, favored restricting work visas, etc. More recently he has taken a more pro-immigration stance.

If you are going to use Constitutional arguments on gay marriage, then you have to include the 14th Amendment. which means you have to either be for no one getting marriage licences or allowing everyone to get them. It would be fine for Ron Paul to support no one getting married by government, but he supports DOMA which defined marriage at the federal level.

Ron Paul takes the view of the judiciary that rights can be abused as long as they are done at the state level. For example, he thinks states can make laws banning sodomy. That isn't even a debatable issue from a libertarian perspective. The libertarian answer is, no you cannot ban homosexual behavior. Period. The constitutional answer is banning sodomy at the state level violates the 9th Amendment as well as the 14th Amendment.

It is not that I think Ron Paul is bad. I think he is great. But it bothers me tremendously when people think Rand is so very terrible and Ron is so very pure.
 
"You are a nihilist, but not an amusing one; you're one of those worthless shits in The Big Lebowski..."

That's because it's league night. There are rules and regulations you know.

Shall I call your local police department and have put you on possible suicide watch by next April, just to be on the safe side?
 
Rockwell's website promotes AIDS denialism, race realism, among many other things. It's educational value is negative.
That's why I always direct people to Cato, Reason, or FEE whenever they want to learn the basics of libertarianism.
 
Reasonable people can differ on the issue, but it is factually correct to say the standard libertarian view is to be pro-choice. That was Ayn Rand's view, Milton Friedman's view, and Murray Rothbard's view. That covers the leaders of the major wings of libertarianism.
1) No it doesn't.
2) That doesn't cover the "major wings of libertarianism" that really only covers right-libertarianism.
 
Don't forget the LvMI.

Even if you don't like the current faculty, they have a fantastic library (see my sig).

umm...

Llewellyn Harrison "Lew" Rockwell, Jr. (born July 1, 1944) is an American libertarian author and editor, self-professed anarcho-capitalist, a promoter of the Austrian School of economics, and founder and chairman of the Ludwig von Mises Institute.
 
umm...

Llewellyn Harrison "Lew" Rockwell, Jr. (born July 1, 1944) is an American libertarian author and editor, self-professed anarcho-capitalist, a promoter of the Austrian School of economics, and founder and chairman of the Ludwig von Mises Institute.

And?
 
Ok, I've read through this bunch of nonsense. I'd like to chime in with my own self-professed, intellectually pure bullshit.

In 2007... I'm sitting in my barracks, part of the first deployment to Korea in 50 years. Just spent months with my unit fighting Congress to fix our pay because the guy 50 yards in the other building was taking home $500 more a month because his unit PCS to Korea.

I'm watching the Republican Debate.

Ron Paul raises the question, why are we in Korea? As I sit and listen to his answers, the man hits at my deeper mind. He passes the filters, the programming, and made me really think... probably for the first time in any true, fruitful way. I didn't give a shit about libertarianism. I didn't care about philosophical purity. I cared that someone was fighting for me, in my situation. I cared that someone else was bold enough to stand up and bring reasonable, meaningful discussion to the table. Something I had never seen or heard before.. and it was a ray of light for me.

It's easy for me 8 years later, well read and fortified in my libertarian ideals, to rail against those who are less pure libertarians, those who support democratic socialism or neoconservatism or some odd mixture of all three.. or none at all.

I think our path to enlighten ourselves has fundamentally stripped us of our humility. These battles against others... each other... over imaginary lines in the "bedrock of the liberty movement"... it's our downfall.

Had one of you been next to me watching that first debate and I said "I like this guy" and you responded "that guy is an isolationist, a racist, a kook".. I might not have had the intellectual fortitude to oppose you and maybe have just maintained the safe route of NOT thinking for myself. TRUMP 2016 could be my rally cry today.

Why is that? Have any of you stopped to consider it? We are at the forefront of an idea and I know 8 years seems a long time, but it's not. Some have been fighting for these same things their whole lives and gotten no where. We are lucky to be a part of something bigger than ourselves that has accomplished more in the last 8 years than libertarians have accomplished in the 20 years before Ron Paul 2008.

A small part of America is starting to finally sway our way.. the seeds have been planted and are just waiting to be nurtured. Now is not the time to be having battles over intellectual purity. Save that for when that debate stage is made up of all self-proclaimed Libertarians and we are fighting over the best flavor.

So, with that all said.. here is my opinion.

I DON'T want Rand to be Ron Paul 2.0. I want Rand Paul to be himself and to think for himself. To be inspired by all of us to take the baton and carry it in his own way. Ron Paul wasn't all that special. But we were. We banded together knowing Ron was an imperfect messenger and we at one point agreed to disagree what perfection means and stood behind him. It wasn't because he was intellectually pure. It was because he was bold. A brave old man with nothing to lose. Speaking truth to power. I know you all know in your hearts of hearts Ron was special.. but he was only special to us and we were special to him. It changed him. It inspired him. It gave him the courage to be unafraid, unapologetic, and uncompromising. I swear to you right now... what made Ron special is gone from him because it it lives or dies in us now.

I'd like nothing more than to just once in my life to feel what Ron Paul felt November 5, 2007. Imagine that raw inspiration flowing through that man's veins seeing something special be born.. the throwing of the clay on the table, ready to be molded. I'm sure how he inspired us paled in comparison to how we inspired him. That sort of energy that turns a 70+ year old man into an unstoppable engine of energy and passion like a kid. WE DID THAT, not Ron Paul. Take away us and Ron Paul wasn't special. So to sit here and cry that Rand Paul is not like his father or that he isn't pure or sold out or any of that nonsense... it is no excuse for your lack of effort to inspire HIM. Rand Paul isn't all that special. But we are.

So it begs the question. What do you want to accomplish? Ron Paul was about as good as it gets. You won't see another one like him in your lifetime... if we keep this up. We are all spoiled from the fruits of Ron's labor and some are acting out like teenagers against their favorite underground band because they signed with a label and got played on the radio.

The most damaging thing to the liberty movement isn't that Rand Paul isn't more like his father, but that WE aren't more like his father. That we fail to recognize Rand as a simple means to progress the idea that is OURS now.. not Ron Paul's any longer. The responsibility now falls on us to inspire others. There is nothing inspiring about any of this right now. You care so much about your beliefs, you will own it for yourself.. but move it partially forward through Rand. Mold the clay and don't expect it to mold itself or be anything less than a lump of clay.

There is nothing any better you could do for the movement than to get behind Rand and inspire him, like we did his father. I frankly don't care if you don't like the man or think he's sold out, hate his hair, whatever. Rand isn't like his father.. nor are we newcomers... ignorant of the idea any longer. How many of you opposed to Rand are afraid he's going to somehow sway your ideology wrong? Surely.. you aren't the clay you once were. So therefore Rand isn't the idea and he isn't responsible for inspiring us. We shape the world as we want it from here on out and this notion of purity and petty reasoning is something we should all be ashamed of. The goal now must therefore be... WE drive the inspiration for RAND to inspire the NATION to move 1 degree toward our beliefs. Nothing more.. nothing less.

I dare any one of you to claim to have a more efficient way to spread Liberty than through Rand in this moment in history and I'll call you a liar or a fool. Because Tom Woods ain't going to do it, nor is Lew Rockwell. Rand is your new imperfect messenger.. so I think you should get behind it or move out of the way. That goes for Tom, Lew, or any of these people more concerned for their own self-righteous purity than practical advancement of ideas.

If they aren't behind Rand 100%, then I'm not willing to listen to their ideas because I don't need them to replace Ron Paul. If they aren't willing to get behind this car and help push it down the road, they ain't getting a ride in my car.

So this is my act of anger against you all. I've got a daughter now that turns 3 years old in 2 days. This is about her for me now. You want to do something for the liberty movement? Put aside your differences with Rand and support him because he is the one out there doing what he thinks is best for us. He's the one traveling the country... still fighting even though many in this movement abandoned him. My sole mission in life is to convert people to the ideals we all relatively share. And like any smart company who is trying to increase sales.. I'm starting with the current customer base before I waste money trying to earn new ones. BECAUSE IF YOU WANT A FREE WORLD, YOU SHOULD BUY WHAT WE ARE SELLING.

Making just one of you rethink your lack of faith in Rand and FIGHT FOR HIM just to progress 1 degree more of freedom... that could be the difference for my daughter living in a disaster of a country or one that is a revival of the individual where she can thrive. So forgive my selfishness when I say this... stop being so damn selfish in your ideology and just help us play this side game of inches and you can still be free to bring purity to your own playground.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I've read through this bunch of nonsense. I'd like to chime in with my own self-professed, intellectually pure bullshit.

In 2007... I'm sitting in my barracks, part of the first deployment to Korea in 50 years. Just spent months with my unit fighting Congress to fix our pay because the guy 50 yards in the other building was taking home $500 more a month because his unit PCS to Korea.

I'm watching the Republican Debate.

Ron Paul raises the question, why are we in Korea? As I sit and listen to his answers, the man hits at my deeper mind. He passes the filters, the programming, and made me really think... probably for the first time in any true, fruitful way. I didn't give a shit about libertarianism. I didn't care about philosophical purity. I cared that someone was fighting for me, in my situation. I cared that someone else was bold enough to stand up and bring reasonable, meaningful discussion to the table. Something I had never seen or heard before.. and it was a ray of light for me.

It's easy for me 8 years later, well read and fortified in my libertarian ideals, to rail against those who are less pure libertarians, those who support democratic socialism or neoconservatism or some odd mixture of all three.. or none at all.

I think our path to enlighten ourselves has fundamentally stripped us of our humility. These battles against others... each other... over imaginary lines in the "bedrock of the liberty movement"... it's our downfall.

Had one of you been next to me watching that first debate and I said "I like this guy" and you responded "that guy is an isolationist, a racist, a kook".. I might not have had the intellectual fortitude to oppose you and maybe have just maintained the safe route of NOT thinking for myself. TRUMP 2016 could be my rally cry today.

Why is that? Have any of you stopped to consider it? We are at the forefront of an idea and I know 8 years seems a long time, but it's not. Some have been fighting for these same things their whole lives and gotten no where. We are lucky to be a part of something bigger than ourselves that has accomplished more in the last 8 years than libertarians have accomplished in the 20 years before Ron Paul 2008.

A small part of America is starting to finally sway our way.. the seeds have been planted and are just waiting to be nurtured. Now is not the time to be having battles over intellectual purity. Save that for when that debate stage is made up of all self-proclaimed Libertarians and we are fighting over the best flavor.

So, with that all said.. here is my opinion.

I DON'T want Rand to be Ron Paul 2.0. I want Rand Paul to be himself and to think for himself. To be inspired by all of us to take the baton and carry it in his own way. Ron Paul wasn't all that special. But we were. We banded together knowing Ron was an imperfect messenger and we at one point agreed to disagree what perfection means and stood behind him. It wasn't because he was intellectually pure. It was because he was bold. A brave old man with nothing to lose. Speaking truth to power. I know you all know in your hearts of hearts Ron was special.. but he was only special to us and we were special to him. It changed him. It inspired him. It gave him the courage to be unafraid, unapologetic, and uncompromising. I swear to you right now... what made Ron special is gone from him because it it lives or dies in us now.

I'd like nothing more than to just once in my life to feel what Ron Paul felt November 5, 2007. Imagine that raw inspiration flowing through that man's veins seeing something special be born.. the throwing of the clay on the table, ready to be molded. I'm sure how he inspired us paled in comparison to how we inspired him. That sort of energy that turns a 70+ year old man into an unstoppable engine of energy and passion like a kid. WE DID THAT, not Ron Paul. Take away us and Ron Paul wasn't special. So to sit here and cry that Rand Paul is not like his father or that he isn't pure or sold out or any of that nonsense... it is no excuse for your lack of effort to inspire HIM. Rand Paul isn't all that special. But we are.

So it begs the question. What do you want to accomplish? Ron Paul was about as good as it gets. You won't see another one like him in your lifetime... if we keep this up. We are all spoiled from the fruits of Ron's labor and some are acting out like teenagers against their favorite underground band because they signed with a label and got played on the radio.

The most damaging thing to the liberty movement isn't that Rand Paul isn't more like his father, but that WE aren't more like his father. That we fail to recognize Rand as a simple means to progress the idea that is OURS now.. not Ron Paul's any longer. The responsibility now falls on us to inspire others. There is nothing inspiring about any of this right now. You care so much about your beliefs, you will own it for yourself.. but move it partially forward through Rand. Mold the clay and don't expect it to mold itself or be anything less than a lump of clay.

There is nothing any better you could do for the movement than to get behind Rand and inspire him, like we did his father. I frankly don't care if you don't like the man or think he's sold out, hate his hair, whatever. Rand isn't like his father.. nor are we newcomers... ignorant of the idea any longer. How many of you opposed to Rand are afraid he's going to somehow sway your ideology wrong? Surely.. you aren't the clay you once were. So therefore Rand isn't the idea and he isn't responsible for inspiring us. We shape the world as we want it from here on out and this notion of purity and petty reasoning is something we should all be ashamed of. The goal now must therefore be... WE drive the inspiration for RAND to inspire the NATION to move 1 degree toward our beliefs. Nothing more.. nothing less.

I dare any one of you to claim to have a more efficient way to spread Liberty than through Rand in this moment in history and I'll call you a liar or a fool. Because Tom Woods ain't going to do it, nor is Lew Rockwell. Rand is your new imperfect messenger.. so I think you should get behind it or move out of the way. That goes for Tom, Lew, or any of these people more concerned for their own self-righteous purity than practical advancement of ideas.

If they aren't behind Rand 100%, then I'm not willing to listen to their ideas because I don't need them to replace Ron Paul. If they aren't willing to get behind this car and help push it down the road, they ain't getting a ride in my car.

So this is my act of anger against you all. I've got a daughter now that turns 3 years old in 2 days. This is about her for me now. You want to do something for the liberty movement? Put aside your differences with Rand and support him because he is the one out there doing what he thinks is best for us. He's the one traveling the country... still fighting even though many in this movement abandoned him. My sole mission in life is to convert people to the ideals we all relatively share. And like any smart company who is trying to increase sales.. I'm starting with the current customer base before I waste money trying to earn new ones. BECAUSE IF YOU WANT A FREE WORLD, YOU SHOULD BUY WHAT WE ARE SELLING.

Making just one of you rethink your lack of faith in Rand and FIGHT FOR HIM just to progress 1 degree more of freedom... that could be the difference for my daughter living in a disaster of a country or one that is a revival of the individual where she can thrive. So forgive my selfishness when I say this... stop being so damn selfish in your ideology and just help us play this side game of inches and you can still be free to bring purity to your own playground.

Cheers.

someone send this to lew and tom
 
I wouldn't direct anyone to anything associated with that bearded moron.

His stupidity doesn't negate the fact that the LvMI has a massive online library of Austrian and libertarian works.

The LvMI itself has always been largely apolitical (that's why Lew took his own bullshit to a separate site, LRC).
 
His stupidity doesn't negate the fact that the LvMI has a massive online library of Austrian and libertarian works.

The LvMI itself has always been largely apolitical (that's why Lew took his own bullshit to a separate site, LRC).

Or the fact that RP reads LRC daily. :)
 
There is a reason libertarian ideas aren't more mainstream and it's not because of the message. It has a lot to do with the so called "bedrock of the liberty movement" personalities.

Do you know how well all the milquetoast, PC, beltway-approved Koch libertarians did at spreading the message before Ron Paul showed up on the national stage?

The answer to that question is "Fucking God Awful" in case you weren't sure.

The message delivered by Ron Paul and his inner circle (who are the people you deride) is the one that took off. And that's the fact of the matter, no matter how butthurt you are that they aren't drinking the Rand kool aid.
 
The message delivered by Ron Paul and his inner circle (who are the people you deride) is the one that took off. And that's the fact of the matter, no matter how butthurt you are that they aren't drinking the Rand kool aid.

No. Wrong. The message that took off is the one delivered by Ron and Ron alone. Rockwell had nothing to do with it, and the more spotlight he gets the more damage he does. Even Ron's message didn't take off as well as we all thought with many of his former supporters now being fervent Bernie fans. This election cycle has proven this much.
 
No. Wrong. The message that took off is the one delivered by Ron and Ron alone. Rockwell had nothing to do with it, and the more spotlight he gets the more damage he does. Even Ron's message didn't take off as well as we all thought with many of his former supporters now being fervent Bernie fans. This election cycle has proven this much.

So true
 
Reasonable people can differ on the issue, but it is factually correct to say the standard libertarian view is to be pro-choice. That was Ayn Rand's view, Milton Friedman's view, and Murray Rothbard's view. That covers the leaders of the major wings of libertarianism.

This hardly covers all libertarian leadership. But more to the point, so what? Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, and Milton Friedman were wrong. There is no moral way to justify murdering children. It is a violation of both the NAP and the basic human right to Life. Do you always let other people do your thinking for you?

Side note: Ayn Rand wasn't a libertarian. She was an Objectivist. Libertarianism and Objectivism have places where they cross but they also have stark differences. Just because you're a capitalist doesn't mean you are a libertarian.


He was all over the place on immigration. He voted for the border fence, favored restricting work visas, etc. More recently he has taken a more pro-immigration stance.

Ron's stance hasn't changed. He has always been opposed to federal assumption of power in immigration. He opposed easy naturalization for immigrants but has always opposed federal intrusion in the matter. This stems form his libertarianism. Like most libertarians he believes problems can better be solved at the smaller level, such as the states, and lower really.

If you are going to use Constitutional arguments on gay marriage, then you have to include the 14th Amendment. which means you have to either be for no one getting marriage licences or allowing everyone to get them. It would be fine for Ron Paul to support no one getting married by government, but he supports DOMA which defined marriage at the federal level.

Did you ever actually read why he voted for DOMA? Because it prevented the federal government form forcing the various states and local governments to accept a federal definition of marriage while leaving it open for each state and community to decide for themselves. That is a very libertarian cause.

Also, the 14th Amendment is a bad argument for the simple fact that the Constitution doesn't apply to the states. The 14th Amendment means that states can't restrict federally granted rights, not that the federal government can't grant some privileges over others or that the states can't do the same. Marriage laws of any stripe alone are proof that they can because it creates a privileged married class with special tax breaks and other immunities not available to the single class.


Ron Paul takes the view of the judiciary that rights can be abused as long as they are done at the state level. For example, he thinks states can make laws banning sodomy. That isn't even a debatable issue from a libertarian perspective. The libertarian answer is, no you cannot ban homosexual behavior. Period. The constitutional answer is banning sodomy at the state level violates the 9th Amendment as well as the 14th Amendment.

More proof you simply have no idea what you're talking about or you're lying. Ron Paul is not in favor of sodomy laws. He was opposed to the Lawrence decision in 2003 not because he supports sodomy laws, which he labels "ridiculous." His problem is that the Supreme Court overstepped its boundaries in the Lawrence case, acting on what the SCOTUS thought the law should be and transgressing their constitutional limitations. Someone can be against a law and still have a problem with how it was over turned, which is the case here. Please educate yourself. https://www.lewrockwell.com/2003/08/ron-paul/the-imaginery-constitution/

It is not that I think Ron Paul is bad. I think he is great. But it bothers me tremendously when people think Rand is so very terrible and Ron is so very pure.

Ron isn't "pure" and no one other than you has made that claim. But he was a libertarian. Rand is not. He is much more of a paleoconservative than a libertarian. Which is fine if he were honest about it. Well, maybe he is honest about it and you aren't honest with yourself.

Answers in bold.
 
No. Wrong. The message that took off is the one delivered by Ron and Ron alone. Rockwell had nothing to do with it, and the more spotlight he gets the more damage he does. Even Ron's message didn't take off as well as we all thought with many of his former supporters now being fervent Bernie fans. This election cycle has proven this much.

Rockwell's many decades of thankless support in the trenches for Ron Paul certainly contributed to his eventual success. And Bernie intercepting some of Ron's support was the fault of his son, who alienated so many liberty-minded people by cozying up to the establishment and trying to be everything for everyone.
 
Rockwell's many decades of thankless support in the trenches for Ron Paul certainly contributed to his eventual success. And Bernie intercepting some of Ron's support was the fault of his son, who alienated so many liberty-minded people by cozying up to the establishment and trying to be everything for everyone.

You can't blame Rand for anyone going full retard/communist. Apathetic? maybe. Not a 180 degree ideological flip. Basically some gullible morons supported Ron and have now turned socialist. Not Rand's fault.
 
Rockwell's many decades of thankless support in the trenches for Ron Paul certainly contributed to his eventual success. And Bernie intercepting some of Ron's support was the fault of his son, who alienated so many liberty-minded people by cozying up to the establishment and trying to be everything for everyone.

You sound like you are butthurt about Rand. What did he do to you? This has nothing to do with Rand.

It has to do with how off putting and self destructive Lew Rockwell and crew can often be. It's not like I'm the only one who thinks it. Their approach is awful. If you honestly think his constant bashing of the some of our best champions of liberty (one of which is his "best friends" son, as you put it when neg repping me) simply because they don't meet his absurd purity test while he praises a narcissistic progressive isn't destructive to our cause, then I don't know what to tell you. Your head is obviously shoved so far in the sand that you're helpless.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top