Tom Tancredo calls for Paul's Inclusion at the ITR Forum in Iowa

[Korey Kaczynski]

Way to hold someones religious beliefs against them. That is very "progressive" of you.

Anyway, it's good to see Tancredo did this. Tancredo and Paul have many things they agree about, so it isn't suprising at all.

Well, considering most people are are conservatives, "progressive" means very little to this site's audience.

 

[Korey Kaczynski]

Actually Ben Franklin is one of the most celebrated as a Deist - and yet...

During the debates on getting various issues worked out, Ben Franklin suggested that they resort to prayer, as "Providence" had led them to victory in the War, so it should be also beseeched for Guidance. (that is my paraphrase but he DEFINITLEY suggested they pray). This is not the position of a Deist, who believed that there was a God but that he was an "absentee landlord" and did not concern himself with the dealings of humanity.

So how was Franklin a Deist? Sounds like revisionist history to me.

Regardless,we should not let the issue (evolution OR religion)) divide us, do you even know what Ron Paul's opinion is on evolution? I don't. and I don't care one way or the other, as Huckabee stated when he was asked in the debate, it really is an irrelevant question for a presidential candidate.

edit here is the actual quote, not my lame paraphrase:

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

You're pretty much correct. Franklin was initially a deist but eventually become a Christian later in his life.

 

[Bradley in DC]

I'm a bit cynical over Tancredo's benevelence. Ron Paul is getting all the fuss and press for being excluded, and it's clearly turned out sunny side up with RP providing food and his own forum, so Tancredo wants a piece of that action. Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't pretend to know everything about Tancredo, but I did hear he supported an anti-flag burning amendment to the Constitution, and that tells me enough. However, it would be lovely of him to support Ron Paul.

http://ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=20773&postcount=12

 

[CJLauderdale4]

You're pretty much correct. Franklin was initially a deist but eventually become a Christian later in his life.

This is true, and a very big problem with education in this country.

When you have journals of the Founders praying, fasting, starting Bible societies, etc., they don't do this to a deist God that is on vacation.

They were Christians who made sure that everyone had the freedom to believe and worship whatever they wanted. Thanks guys!!

 

[JoshLowry]

I think that is great news. Thanks goes out to Mr. Tancredo.

 

[kylejack]

Actually Ben Franklin is one of the most celebrated as a Deist - and yet...

During the debates on getting various issues worked out, Ben Franklin suggested that they resort to prayer, as "Providence" had led them to victory in the War, so it should be also beseeched for Guidance. (that is my paraphrase but he DEFINITLEY suggested they pray). This is not the position of a Deist, who believed that there was a God but that he was an "absentee landlord" and did not concern himself with the dealings of humanity.

So how was Franklin a Deist? Sounds like revisionist history to me.

Regardless,we should not let the issue (evolution OR religion)) divide us, do you even know what Ron Paul's opinion is on evolution? I don't. and I don't care one way or the other, as Huckabee stated when he was asked in the debate, it really is an irrelevant question for a presidential candidate.

edit here is the actual quote, not my lame paraphrase:

“ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech

“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]

In Benjamin Franklin's 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach "the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as "a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone."

Your definition of deism is far too narrow. A deist believes that God exists, period. They may indeed urge prayer, but typically don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or in Jesus as the Son. Yes, there were instances where he mentioned Christianity, but there's just as many that detract from the notion of Franklin as a Christian.

 

[JoshLowry]

Your definition of deism is far too narrow. A deist believes that God exists, period. They may indeed urge prayer, but typically don't believe in the Holy Trinity, or in Jesus as the Son. Yes, there were instances where he mentioned Christianity, but there's just as many that detract from the notion of Franklin as a Christian.

Keep the thread on topic por favor.

It would probably make a good thread in Issues for America.

 

[kylejack]

This is true, and a very big problem with education in this country.

When you have journals of the Founders praying, fasting, starting Bible societies, etc., they don't do this to a deist God that is on vacation.

They were Christians who made sure that everyone had the freedom to believe and worship whatever they wanted. Thanks guys!!

Have you ever heard of the Jeffersonian Bible? Jefferson released a Bible that removed all of Jesus' miracles because he didn't believe Jesus to be the Son of God.

 

[kylejack]

Keep the thread on topic por favor.

It would probably make a good thread in Issues for America.

K.

 

[JoshLowry]

K.

<3

 

[denvervoipguru]

Thanks Tom

Mr. Tancredo was my Congressmen until I moved from Colorado's Sixth District a few years ago...he's a great American.

I'll call tomorrow to say thanks.

 

[Revolution9]

Many were deists (like TJ and BF), some were Christians, some were atheists (like Thomas Paine), and some were agnostics.

Deists believe there is a God, and that this God created the universe, but then left it to function on it's own.

From what I have read, they all believed in the Christian principles. Hence, the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Many of them did not believe in organized religion.

Decent analysis.. I think for myself the best understanding I have of this is that they understood Natural Law and fashioned ideals around this. They used Christian moral principles as a bedrock foundation for societal mores. They were not organised religionists in the denominational church sense though they may have attended. I probably would have back then too.. The communities were spread out and everybody had work to accomplish. The chances of finding a wife/husband or getting business for your craft were easier upon attandance of the church as people from all around the county came at that time and place to gather.

As per Tancredo which this thread is about.. Good for him. A sense of fair play is contagious in this arena.

Best
Randy