Think About Yourself

[TortoiseDream]

This is something that puzzles me greatly. The title of my thread just doesn't make sense to me...it's so strange. Think about it, the idea of thinking about yourself (or, metaphorically, looking at yourself). Does this mean there are two me's? Does one look and one is looked at? How does this even work? And if there are two me's, then which one is the real me? Is it the one who looks or the one who is looked at? God this is confusing, let me know if I didn't do a good job of explaining this, because it might seem like nothing strange is going on.

My first thoughts are that existence is based on this dual relationship, and is equivalent to it, even. I believe I only exist because I perceive you, and you perceive me - a relationship is established, this is our existence. In the same way, if I were the only thing in the "room", I must exist because that same relationship is established with myself; I exist because I look at myself, and I am looked at by myself.

Does anyone else understand what the fuck I'm talking about? Because I'm lost.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

No, look at ME!

 

[Kludge]

Ramble ramble ramble

 

[zach]

Ego and conscious together are separated by physical reality by means of a body?

First, what is Self?

 

[TortoiseDream]

Ego and conscious together are separated by physical reality by means of a body?

No body is required for this question to form, though it still works with it.

First, what is Self?

That is the question we're trying to answer here. My short answer is that there is no boundary to where I end and the rest of the universe begins; self is all. It also seems that self must be a circular relationship between a thing. I really gotta think about this more...

 

[Oceania]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it does it make a sound?

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

This is something that puzzles me greatly. The title of my thread just doesn't make sense to me...it's so strange. Think about it, the idea of thinking about yourself (or, metaphorically, looking at yourself). Does this mean there are two me's? Does one look and one is looked at? How does this even work? And if there are two me's, then which one is the real me? Is it the one who looks or the one who is looked at? God this is confusing, let me know if I didn't do a good job of explaining this, because it might seem like nothing strange is going on.

My first thoughts are that existence is based on this dual relationship, and is equivalent to it, even. I believe I only exist because I perceive you, and you perceive me - a relationship is established, this is our existence. In the same way, if I were the only thing in the "room", I must exist because that same relationship is established with myself; I exist because I look at myself, and I am looked at by myself.

Does anyone else understand what the fuck I'm talking about? Because I'm lost.

you should read about Descartes 'I think therefore I am' idea.

 

[TortoiseDream]

you should read about Descartes 'I think therefore I am' idea.

I know all about "cogito ergo sum", and I disagree. I believe it is the relations with things seemingly external to me which mediate my existence, not some stripped down metaphysical concept. We create each other in our minds, in the subjective.

I have some ideas to my OP, I'll post them later, I want to sort them out precisely first.

 

[pcosmar]

Does anyone else understand what the fuck I'm talking about? Because I'm lost.

Nope.

Try gazing deeply into your navel.
Now say OOOOM several times.

 

[Eric Arthur Blair]

I know all about "cogito ergo sum", and I disagree. I believe it is the relations with things seemingly external to me which mediate my existence, not some stripped down metaphysical concept. We create each other in our minds, in the subjective.

I have some ideas to my OP, I'll post them later, I want to sort them out precisely first.

a lot of people think they get Descartes idea, but they don't.

Think of the movie the Matrix. If you were in the matrix everything around you may not exist it's all just CGI fakery. That would freak you out and you would wonder that maybe you don't exist. Maybe I'm just a CGI Hologram as well? The very process of having that idea and also the emotions that go with it imply that a thinking/emoting something be it a brain a soul or a computer chip has to exist to process it. That's you.

 

[TortoiseDream]

a lot of people think they get Descartes idea, but they don't.

Think of the movie the Matrix. If you were in the matrix everything around you may not exist it's all just CGI fakery. That would freak you out and you would wonder that maybe you don't exist. Maybe I'm just a CGI Hologram as well? The very process of having that idea and also the emotions that go with it imply that a thinking/emoting something be it a brain a soul or a computer chip has to exist to process it. That's you.

I understand Descartes' argument fine, I've read the meditations. The difference between Descartes and I is that he believes in an objective reality, whereas I believe reality to be wholly subjective. Cartesian doubt gets rid of the senses, understandable if you are an objectivist as I once was; I would now say, rather, that all of these things do exist precisely because I perceive them; that reality is created by perception, not the other way around. Existence is therefore not the equivalent of thinking, for a rock exists merely by my imagination; it is, rather, the equivalent of mutual relationships.

When I say "I think about myself", I've established a relationship with myself, and I therefore exist.

Even if you do assume an objective reality, though, I don't think Descartes' argument holds. He wanted to have an unshakable starting point, a piece of knowledge that he could be absolutely certain about. He removes the senses, he removes science, and he removes math, and he supposes for argument that some evil demon can confuse him. Although he doesn't explicitly say it, he has therefore lost reason completely. So how can he, by reason, conclude anything at this point? Yet he does, and it is the cogito. With reason gone we feel lost, and Descartes either didn't see that, or didn't want to confront it. Of course realizing that that we know nothing certain is derived from reasoning, and so we can't be sure of that either. I think the only place you can get to from the trail of doubt is skeptical skepticism.

 

[satchelmcqueen]

i think i know what you mean op. ive thought about this alot. now take this same thought process and imagine being blind. now! do you still see yourself the same way, or is it possible to have even had those thoughts to begin with? vision is a key factor in what you are describing. think about it.

 

[TortoiseDream]

i think i know what you mean op. ive thought about this alot. now take this same thought process and imagine being blind. now! do you still see yourself the same way, or is it possible to have even had those thoughts to begin with? vision is a key factor in what you are describing. think about it.

No, I disagree. When I mean "look" I mean it metaphorically. The issue is not a physical one.

 

[satchelmcqueen]

No, I disagree. When I mean "look" I mean it metaphorically. The issue is not a physical one.

oh, i dont get what you mean.

 

[Mitt Romneys sideburns]

TortoiseDream, can I ask you something? All of this philosophical nonsense you keep going on about. Do you actually apply any of this stuff to your thought process when going about your daily life? Because it seems to me you have constructed philosophical ideas that have no basis in anything tangible to your life.

 

[Oceania]

TortoiseDream, can I ask you something? All of this philosophical nonsense you keep going on about. Do you actually apply any of this stuff to your thought process when going about your daily life? Because it seems to me you have constructed philosophical ideas that have no basis in anything tangible to your life.

Cant speak for TortoiseDream but I know I dont..... haha its just fun and interesting mental masturbation

 

[akihabro]

You need to astral project to look at yourself.

 

[TortoiseDream]

TortoiseDream, can I ask you something? All of this philosophical nonsense you keep going on about. Do you actually apply any of this stuff to your thought process when going about your daily life? Because it seems to me you have constructed philosophical ideas that have no basis in anything tangible to your life.

I like to think, and I like to converse with others about my thoughts. Some of these things are an integral part of my life, especially in the art I create; some is just healthy exercise of the mind. They don't make sense to you because you have a different view, equally valid, but different; but to me they make a lot of sense. A lot of the things I talk about here are the results of lots of thinking and a long journey that started in a similar vein to the way you think now. Maybe I'll fully explain my philosophy somewhere here; for now I'm just putting out ideas without rigorous justification and seeing what people think.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

You need to astral project to look at yourself.

How do I do that.

Isn't looking in the mirror easier.

 

[TortoiseDream]

oh, i dont get what you mean.

Okay then forget the "looking", and focus strictly on thinking, since it's the same problem. Can you make sense of thinking about yourself?