The War on Religion

[KingNothing]

The idea that there are an infinite number of universes still doesn't answer the question of where the original cause of our existence came from. You can speculate all you want on the number of universes, but that doesn't mean any of them are actually infinite in that they had no beginning and no end.

Yes, ok?

To me there is no difference between an infinite universe and a finite universe with a Creator anyway. Each requires the same order of reverence.

 

[KingNothing]

That is the definition of an ad hominem attack. You are not actually refuting my reasoning with the correct reasoning. Instead, you are resorting to saying that I have the reasoning of a patient with Down's Syndrome, whatever that means.

The point is that you are not trying to convince me. You are simply insulting me.

It is most certainly not the definition of the ad hominem logical fallacy. I am not attacking your argument by attacking you. I'm just insulting you, because it is fun.

 

[KingNothing]

I'm going to bed, and I'm adding you to my ignore list. I find you to be a blithering idiot and want no more of this.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Here's how you're begging the question: you set the requirement that the universe must have a beginning, like you and I have a beginning. Why? If someone puts forth a belief that the universe is infinite and claims that it has always existed and will always exist, you can't defeat that argument by saying that the Universe must have a beginning. Why? Why must the universe have a beginning? Because other things do? Other things are not necessarily the same as the Universe.

Let me explain why: It is because everything that begins to exist must have had a cause. If you and I had a cause, then something must have existed before us to cause us to exist. Likewise, whatever existed before us must also have had a cause in order to exist. Therefore, there must have been an original cause. You can follow the causes of everything that existed before you back to the very cause of the universe itself because there had to be a first thing that existed in order to cause all the things that existed after it to lead to you and I existing. The universe is presumably the first thing that existed which led to us existing, so it, too, had to have had a cause in order to exist.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

It is most certainly not the definition of the ad hominem logical fallacy. I am not attacking your argument by attacking you. I'm just insulting you, because it is fun.

Thanks for admitting that you have little interest in knowledge and would rather just insult me. I think you have just demonstrated my point. You just insult people because you don't like what they believe.

You are insulting me because you are trying to avoid using a more intelligent response.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm going to bed, and I'm adding you to my ignore list. I find you to be a blithering idiot and want no more of this.

That's right. If you don't want to debate calmly and intelligently, just do what KingNothing does and insult people then run away from the debate. Everyone here has just seen what a typical atheist will do when pressed.

 

[tttppp]

Cause and effect is logic. So what you are arguing is that there is no logic, only the arbitrary "law" that you made up. I bet you can't even explain in coherent terms what you mean by "zero equal infinity". If you can, please do because you have not at all made that clear. You seem to just expect us to believe it.

I am arguing that God is infinite. What I am disagreeing with you on is that the universe can be infinite in and of itself without an original cause or source. I am not saying you can't use infinity to explain things other than God. I am saying that the universe is not infinite because it must have come into existence somehow. Even if the universe itself did not come into existence, there must have been an original cause that led to it producing life as we know it.

This is really a pointless discussion when you keep making up a bunch of bullshit just to win an argument. You keeping making up two separate requirements for infinity to exist. It must have a cause and effect for it to exist here, but when kt comes to God, you grant God a special exemption to those rules.

I have already explained zero equals infinty to you several times and you haven't taken the time to try to understand it before, so I'm not going to waste my time doing it now when you just are going to ignore anything that doesn't make sense to you. If someone else requests me to explain it, then Ill explain it.

 

[tttppp]

You're most likely just waisting your time. I've tried explaining it to tttppp before. He can't comprehend that God could be infinite with a finite universe for some strange reason.

I don't even know what he means by 0 = infinity and what he means by that the universe is infinite, infinite in its existence in time or in its volume or both?

I don't think there are even any scientists today that believe that the universe is infinite in either in time or space.

You can't have an infinite God and a finite universe because it doesn't work. I understand the concept. You're the one who can't grasp why that won't work.

Most people here understand that the media, government, education, etc are all biased, but for some reason people think that scientists are free of bias. So that fact that most scientists disagree with me means nothing. The reason they are biased to say everything is finite, because if everyone realized the universe is infinite, they would realize there is no need for someone to have control over them...therefore the elite wouldn't like that.

 

[tttppp]

You have explained nothing. I never specified any rules for the universe to be infinite. What I said was that anything that begins to exist has to have had a cause. If you demonstrate that that is not true, then I will concede that it is possible for the universe to be infinite without an initial cause.

All I am saying about God being infinite is that you cannot rule out God's existence. That was in response to a poster who implied that God had to be created, which implies that He is finite. If God is NOT finite (=infinite), then He did not have to have a creator.

I've explained myself several times, you just ignore it.

You still havet explained why infinity can work for God but can't work for the universe.

 

[tttppp]

That the Universe had a beginning. It doesn't necessarily have to have a beginning, just as your God does not have a beginning. You prescribe that constraint on the Universe, but not God, which is baffling.

Everything about your argument is baffling, though, because you're no where close to as smart as you think you are.

I'm glad someone noticed that.

Most religious people actually have enough of an understanding of infinity to understand how something can exist without being created...yet they just use that knowledge to justify God, then say NO our universe has special rules. God is outside of those rules.

 

[matt0611]

I'm glad someone noticed that.

Most religious people actually have enough of an understanding of infinity to understand how something can exist without being created...yet they just use that knowledge to justify God, then say NO our universe has special rules. God is outside of those rules.

No, the universe doesn't have "special rules" because the assertion is that everything that exists in time has a cause. Things that exist outside of time (i.e. God) do not.

See, this is why I said its a waste of time. It's been explained to you over and over and over again and you just argue right past it like it hasn't been explained.

Plenty of people can understand it, every atheist I've ever encountered at least understands the concept and logic of it even if they don't agree with the reality of it. You're the only one I've known that seems to have a problem with understanding it.

 

[tttppp]

No, the universe doesn't have "special rules" because the assertion is that everything that exists in time has a cause. Things that exist outside of time (i.e. God) do not.

See, this is why I said its a waste of time. It's been explained to you over and over and over again and you just argue right past it like it hasn't been explained.

Plenty of people can understand it, every atheist I've ever encountered at least understands the concept and logic of it even if they don't agree with the reality of it. You're the only one I've known that seems to have a problem with understanding it.

No offense but your argument is bullshit. I'm not just going to believe you simply because you disagree with me. You're just trying to justify the existence of God and will make up anything to do it.

As I have explained before, the rules we percieve are not absolute. Its not a requirement for there to be time. So you can't make the argument you are making.

 

[matt0611]

No offense but your argument is bullshit. I'm not just going to believe you simply because you disagree with me. You're just trying to justify the existence of God and will make up anything to do it.

As I have explained before, the rules we percieve are not absolute. Its not a requirement for there to be time. So you can't make the argument you are making.

Nah, its not. Its a pretty tight argument and isn't actually even that hard to understand. You're over thinking it way too much. Sorry you can't understand it. But just because you can't doesn't make it false.

Even when I was an atheist I could still see the logic of it even if I didn't agree with the reality of it. It really isn't that hard as your making it out to be and shouldn't take pages upon pages to understand it.

If you don't understand it by now its because you don't want to, I can't help you anymore, sorry.

 

[tttppp]

Nah, its not. Its a pretty tight argument and isn't actually even that hard to understand. You're over thinking it way too much. Sorry you can't understand it. But just because you can't doesn't make it false.

Even when I was an atheist I could still see the logic of it even if I didn't agree with the reality of it. It really isn't that hard as your making it out to be and shouldn't take pages upon pages to understand it.

If you don't understand it by now its because you don't want to, I can't help you anymore, sorry.

That's where you are wrong. I do understand it. You're just wrong. There's a difference.

I've heard probably every argument out there for religion and I understand everyone of the, except the ones that debate verses of the bible. Out of all their arguments, none of them works. That's why I don't believe in God...not because I don't understand your argument.

You used to be an athiest, but were somehow converted to religion? How stupid are you?

If you want to have a discussion, so be it. Don't tell me I don't understand your argument simply because I disagree with you. If you were right, I would believe you.

 

[matt0611]

That's where you are wrong. I do understand it. You're just wrong. There's a difference.

I've heard probably every argument out there for religion and I understand everyone of the, except the ones that debate verses of the bible. Out of all their arguments, none of them works. That's why I don't believe in God...not because I don't understand your argument.

You used to be an athiest, but were somehow converted to religion? How stupid are you?

If you want to have a discussion, so be it. Don't tell me I don't understand your argument simply because I disagree with you. If you were right, I would believe you.

Sorry man, but all your responses to the argument show to me that you don't understand or comprehend it. I do understand it and your just not following it and you're talking right past it. I think its pretty clear to anyone who is following this thread.

If you want to believe you understand it then that's fine, but you haven't yet shown it to me. We'll just have to end it here I guess, especially now that the personal attacks are starting to fly. I won't be reading any more of your responses so don't feel the need to respond.

Good night.

 

[PierzStyx]

So...This is what it takes to get one of those multi-page threads going. Just name drop Jesus and/or atheism and assert anything. Then just sit back and watch the fireworks.


Seriously though. Some interesting stuff here among all the crap too.

 

[PierzStyx]

You can't have an infinite God and a finite universe because it doesn't work. I understand the concept. You're the one who can't grasp why that won't work.

Most people here understand that the media, government, education, etc are all biased, but for some reason people think that scientists are free of bias. So that fact that most scientists disagree with me means nothing. The reason they are biased to say everything is finite, because if everyone realized the universe is infinite, they would realize there is no need for someone to have control over them...therefore the elite wouldn't like that.

I disagree with your second assertion. Unless we could some how magic up hyperspace/warp drive we are pretty much confined to the face of this planet. And maybe the moon. The size of the Universe is meaningless when you can't access it. You can't escape into space to avoid being ruled by people you don't like. You are stuck Earthbound now and forever. So for all intents and purposes your argument, if it had any point, is useless.

 

[tttppp]

I disagree with your second assertion. Unless we could some how magic up hyperspace/warp drive we are pretty much confined to the face of this planet. And maybe the moon. The size of the Universe is meaningless when you can't access it. You can't escape into space to avoid being ruled by people you don't like. You are stuck Earthbound now and forever. So for all intents and purposes your argument, if it had any point, is useless.

You don't need a spaceship to overcome the grasp of the elite. Just science evolving rapidly would prevent them from controlling us. They make sure everything evolves slowly that way they can assure they control it.

Point is, the fact that some scientists disagee with me doesn't mean anything. The majority of them are bought and paid for by groups we know are biased. Additionally, there are some legit scientists who believe the universe is infinite. Its just not mainstream.

 

[PierzStyx]

You don't need a spaceship to overcome the grasp of the elite. Just science evolving rapidly would prevent them from controlling us. They make sure everything evolves slowly that way they can assure they control it.

Point is, the fact that some scientists disagee with me doesn't mean anything. The majority of them are bought and paid for by groups we know are biased. Additionally, there are some legit scientists who believe the universe is infinite. Its just not mainstream.

I'm not saying you need a spaceship. What I am saying is this assertion "because if everyone realized the universe is infinite, they would realize there is no need for someone to have control over them" is complete bunk. The size of the Universe is actually completely irrelevant philosophically and literally. Almost everyone I know believes the Universe is "infinite". Its not exactly a hidden idea. No less a notable than Stephen Hawking himself has written three well known books showing how we "know" the Universe is infinitely expanding, and thus infinite.

 

[tttppp]

I'm not saying you need a spaceship. What I am saying is this assertion "because if everyone realized the universe is infinite, they would realize there is no need for someone to have control over them" is complete bunk. The size of the Universe is actually completely irrelevant philosophically and literally. Almost everyone I know believes the Universe is "infinite". Its not exactly a hidden idea. No less a notable than Stephen Hawking himself has written three well known books showing how we "know" the Universe is infinitely expanding, and thus infinite.

There have been very little research in technology based off the idea the universe is infinite. The vast majority of research is in pointless technologies that only advance us a little bit. If infinity was truly mainstream, most investment would go to technolgies that could make a huge difference in our lives. Right now most people think a car that gets 40 miles to the gallon is impressive. Are these the people you are talking about that believe in infinity?

By the way, when I was in high school, the big bang theory was still be taught as geenerally accepted fact. Most of the science programs I have seen still teach the big bang theory. So they are either teaching the universe is finite, or they don't understand infinity.