The War on Religion

[KingNothing]

You are insulting me because you are trying to avoid using a more intelligent response.

Dude, you said "tell me when the Universe reaches infinity" ...... You just haven't wrapped your mind around the concept of infinity yet. "Reaching infinity" is something that can't happen.


You don't know what it means. If the Universe is infinite and still expanding, it means that there is nothing beyond the universe. There is no beyond the Universe. It isn't filling an empty void. Beyond it, there is nothing. It may expand forever, or until the Big Chill or Big Rip happens, but it is infinite because it is all. There is nothing that isn't Universe.

 

[KingNothing]

No, the universe doesn't have "special rules" because the assertion is that everything that exists in time has a cause.

What existed before time? Nothing? Something? If something did, what if causes and effects existed simultaneously then?

You can't just ascribe a set of requirements to something like this.

In the very early universe, it is entirely possible that the laws of physics were just developing. Everything we know about the world around us probably did not apply at that time, or prior to it.


What our very religious friend has done throughout this thread is try to make this a "novice level" discussion (his words). Like the novice that he is, he's made this debate a simple one by making one ridiculous assumption after another, without even knowing that he was doing so, then speaking with certainty.

 

[KingNothing]

If the universe is expanding, then it is increasing in volume. If it is not infinite, then it will never be infinite because it would have to expand infinitely in order to be infinite. Let me know when it is finished expanding infinitely...

That you don't understand the complete absurdity of this statement shows how lacking your argument is. You aren't comprehending infinity or the Universe appropriately. You're approaching these things in too simplistic a manner.

 

[KingNothing]

Blowing PaulConventionWV's mind right now: "In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause"

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-04/quantum-experiment-effect-happens-cause/
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012...cts-results-of-measurements-taken-beforehand/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrocausality


.....but yeah, he'll continue to say that I fail to grasp "novice level" thinking, and he's the one blazing a path to enlightenment.

 

[matt0611]

What existed before time? Nothing? Something? If something did, what if causes and effects existed simultaneously then?

You can't just ascribe a set of requirements to something like this.

In the very early universe, it is entirely possible that the laws of physics were just developing. Everything we know about the world around us probably did not apply at that time, or prior to it.


What our very religious friend has done throughout this thread is try to make this a "novice level" discussion (his words). Like the novice that he is, he's made this debate a simple one by making one ridiculous assumption after another, without even knowing that he was doing so, then speaking with certainty.

Before time existed nothing physical existed, the physical universe did not exist. Of course the laws of physics had to be broken to start the universe, you don't say? That's why its "super natural" since it broke the natural laws of physics.

I don't know why its so hard to accept this argument as a coherent argument to how and why the universe started. It really isn't that hard to understand. I'm not even saying you have to ascribe to this explanation but I'm tired of people straw-manning this explanation like tttppp clearly has many times in this thread.

It is my explanation / understanding / belief about how the universe came into existence. You obviously don't have to believe in it, I'm not even trying to persuade you to it. Believe what you want. I'll believe what I want.

I've said my peace. I won't be returning to this thread.

 

[jmdrake]

Not sure if you're serious or not, because this is historical fact. There's no point even debating it. Just do a freaking Google search.

If you did the Google search you must of only read the stupid results. The "Christ as an amalgamation of pagan beliefs" theory has been debunked many times over.

 

[brooks009]

Here are links to hypothesis that try to explain an infinite universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bounce


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_inflation

Multiverse - Bubble_theory

There are more out there. There is just no way to properly test this stuff so we will probably never know the true answer.

Edit: we cant observe anything before the big bang but that does not mean it was the begining of the universe. It just means our senses cant see that far.

 

[brooks009]

Let me explain why: It is because everything that begins to exist must have had a cause. If you and I had a cause, then something must have existed before us to cause us to exist. Likewise, whatever existed before us must also have had a cause in order to exist. Therefore, there must have been an original cause. You can follow the causes of everything that existed before you back to the very cause of the universe itself because there had to be a first thing that existed in order to cause all the things that existed after it to lead to you and I existing. The universe is presumably the first thing that existed which led to us existing, so it, too, had to have had a cause in order to exist.

It does not have to have a cause if it always existed. Infinity = no original cause.

By the way: Infinity is not logical.

 

[jmdrake]

Dude, you said "tell me when the Universe reaches infinity" ...... You just haven't wrapped your mind around the concept of infinity yet. "Reaching infinity" is something that can't happen.


You don't know what it means. If the Universe is infinite and still expanding, it means that there is nothing beyond the universe. There is no beyond the Universe. It isn't filling an empty void. Beyond it, there is nothing. It may expand forever, or until the Big Chill or Big Rip happens, but it is infinite because it is all. There is nothing that isn't Universe.

So then you reject the quantum mechanics theory of the multiverse.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

This is really a pointless discussion when you keep making up a bunch of bullshit just to win an argument. You keeping making up two separate requirements for infinity to exist. It must have a cause and effect for it to exist here, but when kt comes to God, you grant God a special exemption to those rules.

I have already explained zero equals infinty to you several times and you haven't taken the time to try to understand it before, so I'm not going to waste my time doing it now when you just are going to ignore anything that doesn't make sense to you. If someone else requests me to explain it, then Ill explain it.

I realize that my explanation hasn't been entirely adequate now. Here is a video that explains it much better. It's 6 minutes long, but it sums it up very cogently.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I've explained myself several times, you just ignore it.

You still havet explained why infinity can work for God but can't work for the universe.

Because there had to be an uncaused cause. An impersonal cause would require a spontaneous arising of order. Also, the universe always existing is impossible because, if the universe is infinite, that means it has already existed for infinity. Therefore, there are 2 objections we must raise when we are told the universe is infinite.

1. Why hasn't the energy run out by now, according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics?
2. If the universe is infinite, that would mean you would have to cross infinity to get to this point. That is impossible. If there is no first event, then there can be no second or third because infinity is logically impossible in the natural world. God, not being constrained by the natural laws of the universe, exists outside of space and time and therefore does not need to exist "for infinity" for us to be here. He is the uncaused cause. Again, there must have been an uncaused cause because you can't have an infinite regression of causes.

Something that does not exist cannot bring something into existence, so the idea that the universe brought itself into existence has been realized to be absurd. Now it is time to realize the absurdity of an infinite universe. If there was not a personal cause, a decision, in the past, that brought us to this point, then we cannot exist. Watch the video in my above post.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm glad someone noticed that.

Most religious people actually have enough of an understanding of infinity to understand how something can exist without being created...yet they just use that knowledge to justify God, then say NO our universe has special rules. God is outside of those rules.

Then explain to me why God must be constrained by the laws of the universe.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Dude, you said "tell me when the Universe reaches infinity" ...... You just haven't wrapped your mind around the concept of infinity yet. "Reaching infinity" is something that can't happen.


You don't know what it means. If the Universe is infinite and still expanding, it means that there is nothing beyond the universe. There is no beyond the Universe. It isn't filling an empty void. Beyond it, there is nothing. It may expand forever, or until the Big Chill or Big Rip happens, but it is infinite because it is all. There is nothing that isn't Universe.

I know reaching infinity isn't something that can happen. I was being sarcastic. If the universe is expanding, that tells me it is occupying more space, more volume. If it is occupying more volume, then that means that, at any given point, it does not occupy all volume. Therefore, it would have to expand infinitely to truly be infinite, which is impossible.

To me, your definition of infinity is that something can be measured, but there is nothing beyond it. For example, you could count the number of square feet or miles the universe occupies if you just had enough time. You are simply saying that there is nothing beyond what we can count. To me, infinity means immeasurable and countless. If the universe is immeasurable and countless, then it can't expand because there is nowhere it can expand to.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

What existed before time? Nothing? Something? If something did, what if causes and effects existed simultaneously then?

You can't just ascribe a set of requirements to something like this.

In the very early universe, it is entirely possible that the laws of physics were just developing. Everything we know about the world around us probably did not apply at that time, or prior to it.


What our very religious friend has done throughout this thread is try to make this a "novice level" discussion (his words). Like the novice that he is, he's made this debate a simple one by making one ridiculous assumption after another, without even knowing that he was doing so, then speaking with certainty.

Did the laws of logic apply? Because the laws of logic dictate that something can't bring itself into existence. There had to be something that existed before time in order to bring time into existence. There had to have been a first event.

Thanks for the ad hominem attacks, by the way. I know it is a rare exception and you atheists would NEVER use ad hominem attacks otherwise. /s

 

[PaulConventionWV]

Blowing PaulConventionWV's mind right now: "In New Quantum Experiment, Effect Happens Before Cause"

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-04/quantum-experiment-effect-happens-cause/
http://arstechnica.com/science/2012...cts-results-of-measurements-taken-beforehand/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrocausality


.....but yeah, he'll continue to say that I fail to grasp "novice level" thinking, and he's the one blazing a path to enlightenment.

You're not blowing my mind. You're posting absurdity that inherently contradicts itself. You must not believe in logic, either. Can there be a square circle? KingNothing says yes.

 

[PaulConventionWV]

It does not have to have a cause if it always existed. Infinity = no original cause.

By the way: Infinity is not logical.

I know infinity is not logical. That is why an infinite universe without a personal cause is not logical. Are you saying logic doesn't apply? Always existing means it has existed for an infinite amount of time. This is impossible.

 

[KingNothing]

I know reaching infinity isn't something that can happen. I was being sarcastic. If the universe is expanding, that tells me it is occupying more space, more volume. If it is occupying more volume, then that means that, at any given point, it does not occupy all volume. Therefore, it would have to expand infinitely to truly be infinite, which is impossible.

To me, your definition of infinity is that something can be measured, but there is nothing beyond it. For example, you could count the number of square feet or miles the universe occupies if you just had enough time. You are simply saying that there is nothing beyond what we can count. To me, infinity means immeasurable and countless. If the universe is immeasurable and countless, then it can't expand because there is nowhere it can expand to.

Count the digits of pi. I'll give you... an infinite... amount of time.

 

[KingNothing]

You're not blowing my mind. You're posting absurdity that inherently contradicts itself. You must not believe in logic, either. Can there be a square circle? KingNothing says yes.

Riiiiight. It's not that theories of cause and effect need to be examined based on recent studies that have been conducted. No, that would imply that the entire premise of your limited argument is flawed. Couldn't have that, now could we.

 

[brooks009]

This is impossible.

Understanding the universe is impossible but we try anyway. We even make up stuff "like God" to fill in the blanks.

 

[KingNothing]

Understanding the universe is impossible but we try anyway. We even make up stuff "like God" to fill in the blanks.

PaulConventionWV didn't really even have to try. He knows cause and effect, so, therefore, God did it all. THAT is how smart PaulConventionWV is. The rest of us just can't wrap our tiny brains around his abstract, highly evolved thought process.