The Theist Hatred Of Atheists

But that is a political position, not a religious position, therefor, that is a bit moot. Ethier they were killing because they were communists opossing a different faction, or they were atheists killing a dif. faction... the atheism might of helped fuel the fire of hate, but it was the communism that pushed them over.

As far as communists being proof of atheistic violence, I think this is a false argument. They suffered from a misconceived economic ideology.

The only possibly legitimate argument is that atheistic communists persecuted and killed the religious in Russia (and China, and elsewhere). You also have to look at the particulars of this kind of case, though. Much of what is called "atheistic persecution or killing of the religious" is really an effort by socialistic governments to uproot what amounted to hierarchal domination of peasantry by religious bodies (priests, who have a "direct line" to God, etc., give money for religious icons or "forgiveness"--basic exploitation; Dostoyevsky has a good description of this, though not entirely hateful towards it, in The Brothers Karamazov). These "men of God" basically had a theocratic strangehold on the poor and uneducated, who accepted their authority under fear of hell, god, etc etc. So this "atheistic" violence really comes to an attempt to get religion out of its near-statehood control of certain parts of Russia (in particular), and not, unlike religious-based crimes, "for the sake of establishing monolithic atheism."

So I think the argument is a bit tenuous.

THEN AGAIN, I don't agree that atheists necessarily have a lower propensity for criminal or violent behavior. This I think is a ridiculous assumption, and is probably not borne out by the facts (if it is even possible to "check" such a hypothesis).

The religious merely have more DOCTRINAL, DOGMATIC reason and support and motivation to commit violent crimes. And they have definitely COMMITTED MORE CRIMES from a singular source than any other "sect" or group.
 
anti-theists

It's only logical that if you are an atheist, it's troubling when anyone points out the lethality of your own religion - especially when you've been trying to make the same case for Christianity. In the end you have to join the ranks of the religious because you can only believe your case by faith. More faith than I've got. We all choose to believe what we think is right. You can't prove atheism, and I can't prove the Creator God. You refuse to accept my evidence (about body counts, etc.), and I see no reason to give any credence to your protestations. Our realities are at considerable variance.

Our worldviews effect nearly every decision we make. Christians believe that men are innately sinful - and atheists believe they are innately 'good' (in some incomprehensible relativistic manner). We believe that men are created in God's image, and of infinite worth - you believe that men are mystically animate pre-compost. And so on. These views are, if not totally incompatible, then nearly so.

Did it ever occur to y'all that a religious A-theocracy might cause Christians as much concern as you seem to have for a mythical boogey-man of Theocracy? I don't believe Dr. Paul has either one in mind. This little tempest here has illustrated the venomous hatred, and intolerance self-worshipers have for believers. I don't know how we can overcome this immense chasm, even if we wanted to. God's arm is not short.

Lastly, it's disgraceful and cowardly to anonymously curse a lady, where her husband can't get at you to instill a long overdue sense of manners and decorum. Got to be a yankee.

Adios

ps - if it weren't for God, y'all would just be "A''s.
 
It's only logical that if you are an atheist, it's troubling when anyone points out the lethality of your own religion - especially when you've been trying to make the same case for Christianity. In the end you have to join the ranks of the religious because you can only believe your case by faith. More faith than I've got. We all choose to believe what we think is right. You can't prove atheism, and I can't prove the Creator God. You refuse to accept my evidence (about body counts, etc.), and I see no reason to give any credence to your protestations. Our realities are at considerable variance.

Is this pointed to me?

I am not an atheist, as I’ve stated 800 times in this thread.

and atheists believe they are innately 'good' (in some incomprehensible relativistic manner).

This isn’t the case whatsoever. Atheists range from one end of the spectrum to the other on these questions. You obviously know very little about this subject.

Lastly, it's disgraceful and cowardly to anonymously curse a lady, where her husband can't get at you to instill a long overdue sense of manners and decorum. Got to be a yankee.

NC, boy.

You are a fool.

(So is she.)
 
No, I believe that people are within their own intellectual rights to hold to their beliefs, including the ones that differ from my own, but I still believe they're wrong if their ideas do not agree with the word of God. I think it's more profitable to discuss and debate opposing views than to just pull out a gun and shoot somebody when they disagree with me. By the way, that would be murder if I were to do so. But do not expect me to accept the authority of or simply agree with fools who won't use the common sense that God gave them, especially when ideas have consequences within a society and souls are at stake in eternity.

I have no soul, I am not immortal. That's why religion is not very important in my life. And I note you resort to insults as well.

What you believe determines how you behave. If you believe men are animals, then men will act like animals, for example, and that has serious ramifications in a society's moral code, justice system, orientation of law and science, respect for property rights, and the list goes on and on. That's one of the philosophies that I take issue with, and I find great pleasure in showing the fallacies of it.

You do a poor job of logically discussing your beliefs, since you make continuous use of appeal to authority whenever you are challenged to explain them.

I suppose if all your beliefs come from the bible though it's to be expected.

Any cursory examination of vertebrate anatomy will show that humans are animals that happen to have evolved large brains which allow us to imagine further into the future and understand the world around us to a much greater degree than all other animals we share the planet with.

If you want to introduce the inherently untestable hypothesis that god had something to do with it you certainly can.


Comparing my wanting to destroy your beliefs (not your body) with Islam is naive, at best, and repulsive, at worst. I don't know which one of my threads you're referring to where I said I wanted to strap some bombs to myself and blow up anybody who disagrees with me, but you need to just quit with your hasty generalizations, WilliamC. I've explained to you over and over again that I do not wish to murder you or any non-theist, but you're still not hearing me.

By the way, your intolerance of my being intolerant of other's differing beliefs is noted.

How else to you propose to destroy my beliefs without destroying me, since I am the one who chooses to believe the way I do?

Peaceful persuasion is not the same thing as calling for destruction and extinction as you do.

As for my intolerance, well I certainly haven't stated I wish to see your worldview destroyed, so I'll let those reading this thread come to their own conclusions about that.

All I am intolerant of is those who would use violence, threats, or fraud to get from others what they cannot through voluntary exchange. So long as you don't take that small step from wanting to see my beliefs and thoughts destroyed to actually wanting to help speed the process up via your direct intervention, then keep spreading your hate and bigotry for all the world to see.


You are, but ignorance can be fixed. Stupidity lasts forever. By the way, I don't think you're stupid, WilliamC, and you've done a lot for the Ron Paul campaign, so I know you possess great intelligence and wisdom in some things.

And again you resort to insults as if threats were not enough.

How is any amount of education going to change my beliefs if I don't share your faith?

You certainly don't seem to be interested in following the example of how even Ron Paul deals with people, much less Jesus Christ :(
 
A Hurried Rebuttal

So it exists? That’s what I’m saying in regards to logic, what you just said, but applied to logic (in its proper applications, obviously).

Yes, math exists, but math and logic are still two different things. Logic is the basis for math and not the other way around.

Do you see how there is no real way I can argue against this as your argument starts off with the pre-assumption of something that has no material or logical basis?

You can't argue it, sophocles07, because you refuse to accept that there are immaterial entities in and outside of nature. You have faulty presuppositions based only in materialism.

It seems like you’re just making something metaphysical without any real reason to do so.

I do have a reason for the soul being metaphysical, and it's God's revelation that He created man with a soul.

Do you mean “do plants and other animals think abstractly” or do you mean “does nature operate ‘logically’”?

No, I'm asking whether you believe the laws of logic exist independent of human experience (universal) or are they dependent on what humans think and understand about them and how they use them (conventional).

Would art which implicitly or explicitly involved morality that is contrary to the Christian God’s Law be allowed to be published, distributed, etc.?

In a Biblical theocratic society, I would say these things would not be allowed because they contradict or blaspheme God's law-word, thus, promoting idolatry and immorality within that society, which would bring about the inevitable infringement of other's God-given rights of life, liberty, property, etc.

I’m wondering exactly how a theocratic government could actually exist and operate without destroying most of the freedoms of mind that people enjoy under the republican ideals of Jefferson and Adams. And what about classic authors, like Theognis or Aeschylus, whose works are pagan?

First, I hope you see the implicit prejudice in your first statement. You're implying that a theocratic government would necessarily destroy "freedom of mind" in a society, but you're just begging the question. I would say men would have freedoms to think, reason, and debate about their worldviews, but, ideally, those which contradict the Bible would not be inculcated in the legislation of laws and governmental science in a theocratic government.
 
Yes, math exists, but math and logic are still two different things. Logic is the basis for math and not the other way around.
Well, they’re not exactly two different things; if one is based on the other. But I’m not sure why it matters which is based on which in this context.
You can't argue it, sophocles07, because you refuse to accept that there are immaterial entities in and outside of nature. You have faulty presuppositions based only in materialism.
No, I can’t argue because the opponent’s entire case is based on something that is, as WilliamC says above, inherently untestable. (1) There is no use in placing any value on what you’ve said, as it has no way of verification; (2) my presuppositions are what is in front of me; I don’t have suppositions that are entirely unreasonable. If that’s “faulty,” ...
I do have a reason for the soul being metaphysical, and it's God's revelation that He created man with a soul.
That’s not a reason; that’s faith. A reason would be some logical extension that points toward a soul; there is not any except a material book written by men two thousand years ago. Again, if you don’t understand that, I cannot argue against you, because your assumptions are based in faith and not reason.
No, I'm asking whether you believe the laws of logic exist independent of human experience (universal) or are they dependent on what humans think and understand about them and how they use them (conventional).
The former. But the question is obviously very complex. That is, nature works “logically” in the sense that you can observe it and see it has patterns that are “logical”; but, animals and non-humans (with the exception of a few species which have been proven to have the ability for abstract thought) do not comprehend the logic of nature.
In a Biblical theocratic society, I would say these things would not be allowed because they contradict or blaspheme God's law-word, thus, promoting idolatry and immorality within that society, which would bring about the inevitable infringement of other's God-given rights of life, liberty, property, etc.
If you absolutely proved God’s existence, this alone (above comment) would force me to oppose his rule. This is the concrete end of your aim for social order; this is why you are dangerous, it extends to many, many areas...all of which are despicably anti-Ron Paul.
First, I hope you see the implicit prejudice in your first statement. You're implying that a theocratic government would necessarily destroy "freedom of mind" in a society, but you're just begging the question. I would say men would have freedoms to think, reason, and debate about their worldviews, but, ideally, those which contradict the Bible would not be inculcated in the legislation of laws and governmental science in a theocratic government.
That’s not freedom though; that’s jerking me off. And I don’t trust people who call tinkering, to use Ron Paul’s word, freedom.
 
Its_true.jpg
 
My fellow man.
I feel I have an important message to give to you.
A message to Christians and Atheists alike.
Make no mistake, I am a Christian but I belong to no church.
I fear that we are fighting one another here and creating bitterness to our own detriment.
The true enemy is yet to reveal itself.
Christians believe in this enemy while Atheist do not.
Just the same both groups will be targeted by this enemy.
Keep this in mind while you argue and make war with one another here.
I apologize for my bitter post in this thread and others I have made on this board.
I have heard it said and I have agreed that our movement is a Chimera of sorts but I now feel it might be a divine conglomeration of the Believer and Unbeliever alike.
Ron Paul's campaign was not an accident.
There must be a reason we are all here.
Remember...
We are not the enemy friends.
United we stand...
Truce and Peace to all.

One last thought. It does not so much matter what you believe. It is more important to understand what the enemy believes. This is what will be imposed upon us all.
 
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First, I hope you see the implicit prejudice in your first statement. You're implying that a theocratic government would necessarily destroy "freedom of mind" in a society, but you're just begging the question. I would say men would have freedoms to think, reason, and debate about their worldviews, but, ideally, those which contradict the Bible would not be inculcated in the legislation of laws and governmental science in a theocratic government.

Theocrat, I need to figure this out... for my own sake here... you are advocating a government that is not secular, that will impose a God-centered view and be completely resilient to any future change that might question that view? A bible centered view of how to be governed, even to people who are strongly against that?

People believe in the Constitution, because of the fact it gives us rights and protects us from our own Government...

I don't understand this... You want a biblical government, one which would not protect a non-believer or non-Christian...

You think this is acceptable?
 
Theocrat and his version of government policy, law, and science:

faith_flowchart.gif


Rational view:

science_flowchart.gif
 
Here's an example of what I mean when I say that these "abstract, immaterial entities" (good/bad, beauty, truth, etc.) have NO MEANING apart from their material source/application (and also why its good to get to the source of the original language to understand anything).

In Jane Harrison's "Themis" she writes:

When Elohim beheld the world he had created he 'saw that it was very good.' The Hebrew word for 'good' [untypable Hebrew word] seems primarily to have been applied to ripe fruits; it means 'luscious, succulent, good to eat.' The same odd bit of human history comes out in the Mexican word gualli, which though it means 'good' in general is undoubtedly formed from gua 'to eat'--the form gualoni, 'eatable,' keeps its original limited sense. 'Evil' in Mexican is am ogualli or a gualli, i.e. 'not good to eat'; gua gualli, 'good, good,' 'extremely good,' is really 'superlatively eatable.' The word ocochil means 'flower'; the word for 'fruit' is 'good, i.e. eatable flower,' ocochigualli. Most instructive of all, the act of making a meal is 'I do myself good,' Nigualtia."

Meaning: until philosophized and conceptualized and abstracted from an original meaning, the MORAL term/word attached to a situation hinged upon its material relation--whether one is hungry or one is starving, and good is having a supply of food.

These abstractions are useless; to be good is to do a certain thing, certain actions, etc.; to be bad is to do certain actions, etc.; it is not based in non-material etc things; to perceive the beautiful is to perceive something material; to experience or observe truth is to perceive something material happening. Etc. God has nothing to do with it except by exaggeration; it's hyperbole of those with imagination.
 
Simple Answers

Theocrat, I need to figure this out... for my own sake here... you are advocating a government that is not secular, that will impose a God-centered view and be completely resilient to any future change that might question that view?

Yes. Here's why.

A bible centered view of how to be governed, even to people who are strongly against that?

Yes. Click here and here.

People believe in the Constitution, because of the fact it gives us rights and protects us from our own Government...

That's wrong. The Constitution doesn't give us our rights; it gives the government its rights.

I don't understand this... You want a biblical government, one which would not protect a non-believer or non-Christian...

Because all men are made in the image of God in that they are the descendants of Adam (the first man), and God gives man his rights as the supreme Creator and Lawgiver, a Biblical government would still protect the non-believer or non-Christian for that reason. Those rights that God gives to us, nonetheless, are conditioned upon our obedience to Him, and they can be taken from us only by His judgment. This is crucial for any non-believer or non-Christian in understanding the blessings and curses that come from keeping or breaking God's law because their God-given rights are at stake. This is equally true for the Christian as well.

You think this is acceptable?

Yes. Here's why.
 
False Charts

Theocrat and his version of government policy, law, and science:

faith_flowchart.gif

I think you're misrepresenting what a theocratic understanding of government policy, law, and science, as well, are by your crude and deceiving chart, Kade. I think you need to read more about what a theocracy entails before you post naive models which have nothing to do with the tenets of a theocratic faith. I believe the following excerpt from R.J. Rushdoony's work, The Institutes of Biblical Law, will give you a good foundational understanding and introduction to what the nature of law is as revelation and treaty in society, from a theocrat's perspective:

Law is in every culture religious in origin. Because law governs man and society, because it establishes and declares the meaning of justice and righteousness, law is inescapably religious, in that it establishes in practical fashion the ultimate concerns of a culture. Accordingly, a fundamental and necessary premise in any and every study of law must be, first, a recognition of this religious nature of law.

Second, it must be recognized that in any culture the source of law is the god of that society. If law has its source in man's reason, then reason is the god of that society. If the source is an ogliarchy, or in a court, senate, or ruler, then that source is the god of that system. Thus, in Greek culture, law was essentially a religiously humanistic concept... Because for the Greeks, mind was one being with the ultimate order of things, man's mind was thus able to discover ultimate law (nomos) out of its own resources, by penetrating through the maze of accident and matter to the fundamental ideas of being. As a result, Greek culture became both humanistic, because man's mind was one with ultimacy, and also neoplatonic, ascetic, and hostile to the world of matter, because mind, to be truly itself, had to separate itself from non-mind.

Modern humanism, the religion of the state, locates law in the state and thus makes the state, or the people as they find expression in the state, the god of the system... In Western culture, law has steadily moved away from God to the people (or the state) as its source, although the historic power and vitality of the West has been in Biblical faith and law.

Third, in any society, any change of law is an explicit or implicit change of religion. Nothing more clearly reveals, in fact, the religious change in a society than a legal revolution. When the legal foundations shift from Biblical law to humanism, it means that the society now draws its vitality and power from humanism, not from Christian theism.

Fourth, no disestablishment of religion as such is possible in any society. A church can be disestablished, and a particular religion can be supplanted by another, but the change is simply to another religion. Since the foundations of law are inescapably religious, no society exists without a religious foundation or without a law-system which codifies the morality of its religion.

Fifth, there can be no tolerance in a law-system for another religion. Toleration is a device used to introduce a new law-system as a prelude to a new intolerance. Legal positivism, a humanistic faith, has been savage in its hostility to the Biblical law-system and has claimed to be an "open" system... Every law-system must maintain its existence by hostility to every other law-system and to alien religious foundations, or else it commits suicide.

(R.J. Rushdoony, The Institutes of Biblical Law, [The Craig Press, The Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1973], pp. 4-6.)​

Rational view:

science_flowchart.gif

You've forgotten one thing, Kade. God is not merely reduceable to a scientific hypothesis or theory because of His own nature, which is spiritual or immaterial in essence (John 4:24). Thus, He exists transcendentally outside of nature, yet possessing the ability to personally reveal Himself to whomever He will while simultaneously providing all men sufficient knowledge about His existence through the creation and their consciences, generally, and through His Scriptures, specifically, so that no man is without excuse about God's existence (Romans 1:18-25)

Therefore, your so-called "rational" view chart does not deal with the transcendental nature for proving God's existence, which simply states that without God's existence, you could not prove anything, even rationality itself. Your chart simply assumes that all metaphysical entities must be proven through some sort of inductive method of scientific discovery, which is a philosophy held by those with a materialistic, atheistic worldview.
 
What the hell is this biblical government talk? Have you lost your mind? Clearly you have.

What pray tell is wrong with our current government, as in no biblical influence? Why does there have to be biblical influence?
 
Second, it must be recognized that in any culture the source of law is the god of that society. If law has its source in man's reason, then reason is the god of that society.

These statement seems to have very little with the supernatural.

If the source is an ogliarchy, or in a court, senate, or ruler, then that source is the god of that system. Thus, in Greek culture, law was essentially a religiously humanistic concept... Because for the Greeks, mind was one being with the ultimate order of things, man's mind was thus able to discover ultimate law (nomos) out of its own resources, by penetrating through the maze of accident and matter to the fundamental ideas of being. As a result, Greek culture became both humanistic, because man's mind was one with ultimacy, and also neoplatonic, ascetic, and hostile to the world of matter, because mind, to be truly itself, had to separate itself from non-mind.

The above generalization of Greek culture is so ridiculous I can't believe it's been published.
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

As a Christian, you are free to believe that all authority rightly flows from God.

You are also free to regard the government as being lawful only as earthly authority, certainly the constitution as well as the bounds of reasonable consideration would demand such a limitation.

But, ultimately, you must understand that people will disagree with you. I feel as though you are attempting to witness to people through the language of libertarian government- as if your idea is to convert spiritually as opposed to politically. This is similar to superbowl parties where we pause at halftime to discover that Jesus is the coach and the Bible is his playbook. Am I correct in this assumption?
 
I'll note Theocrat's inability to continue a calm, rational debate as he hasn't answered to me lately.
 
In my personal experience as an atheist, I am often wary of letting people know during polite conversation. There is, unfortunately, quite an undeserved stigma that accompanies atheism...
 
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