The Theist Hatred Of Atheists

Why do people fight so much about something they don't believe in?
If you don't believe in God, that is not my problem. I have a hard time understanding why those who don't believe in God, work so hard to get those who do, not to.

To each his own. I don't try to argue the existence of God nor should you the non existence of God. There is no reason for either of us to argue over something neither of us can prove.

You are largely correct, and I must confess to a certain propensity to debating for the sake of debating sometimes.

However, Theocrat has come out and said (in another thread) that he wants to destroy me. I'm just trying to clarify if this is meant as any sort of physical threat or threat to use fraud to harm me or mine.

Now he seems to say he isn't out to destroy me physically, but still there are ways to harm someone by lying about them or such, so I still don't know exactly what he means.

Taken at face value though, he has threatened me, which is why I'm engaging him in prolonged debate.

Personally I could care less about his religious beliefs, and as long as he is peaceful in practicing them I will fight for his right to hold them even though I don't share them.
 
Yeah, but do you have to quote me entirely?

Sure, the commies oppress the religious. But, do they kill them? Why do the commies hate the religious so much? Could it be their crazy ideas? Could it be the fact that religious institutions drain power from the commies by extorting resources from simple folks by claiming that they will be rewarded in an afterlife? Did it ever occur to you that religion could be considered a criminal sham by some governments?

There's a church on every streetcorner in America, the vast majority of which are Christian. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is among their top ten "traditions". Yet, the government under which they live is engaged in a war that is basically against peoples of another "god". These churches could have millions in the streets protesting this, but no. That's because religion is not about saving souls and helping the poor or oppressed. It's about a few people making a good tax-free livelihood by scaring the shit of already pre-conditioned "citizens", and making them think that they have another life coming, one where they'll be punished or pleasured according to their subjectively judged behavior in this life. The war, for them, is about taking out the competetion.
 
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Dumb All Over

Whoever we are
Wherever were from
We shoulda noticed by now
Our behavior is dumb
And if our chances
Expect to improve
Its gonna take a lot more
Than tryin to remove
The other race
Or the other whatever
From the face
Of the planet altogether

They call it the earth
Which is a dumb kinda name
But they named it right
cause we behave the same...
We are dumb all over
Dumb all over,
Yes we are
Dumb all over,
Near n far
Dumb all over,
Black n white
People, we is not wrapped tight

Nurds on the left
Nurds on the right
Religous fanatics
On the air every night
Sayin the bible
Tells the story
Makes the details
Sound real gory
bout what to do
If the geeks over there
Dont believe in the book
We got over here

You cant run a race
Without no feet
n pretty soon
There wont be no street
For dummies to jog on
Or doggies to dog on
Religous fanatics
Can make it be all gone
(I mean it wont blow up
n disappear
Itll just look ugly
For a thousand years...)

You cant run a country
By a book of religion
Not by a heap
Or a lump or a smidgeon
Of foolish rules
Of ancient date
Designed to make
You all feel great
While you fold, spindle
And mutilate
Those unbelievers
From a neighboring state

To arms! to arms!
Hooray! thats great
Two legs aint bad
Unless theres a crate
They ship the parts
To mama in
For souvenirs: two ears (get down!)
Not his, not hers, (but what the hey? )
The good book says:
(it gotta be that way!)
But their book says:
Revenge the crusades...
With whips n chains
n hand grenades...
Two arms? two arms?
Have another and another
Our God says:
There aint no other!
Our God says
Its all okay!
Our God says
This is the way!

It says in the book:
Burn n destroy...
n repent, n redeem
n revenge, n deploy
n rumble thee forth
To the land of the unbelieving scum on the other side
cause they dont go for whats in the book
n that makes em bad
So verily we must choppeth them up
And stompeth them down
Or rent a nice french bomb
To poof them out of existance
While leaving their real estate just where we need it
To use again
For temples in which to praise our god
(cause he can really take care of business!)

And when his humble tv servant
With humble white hair
And humble glasses
And a nice brown suit
And maybe a blond wife who takes phone calls
Tells us our God says
Its okay to do this stuff
Then we gotta do it,
cause if we dont do it,
We aint gwine up to hebbin!
(depending on which book youre using at the
Time...cant use theirs... it dont work
...its all lies...gotta use mine...)
Aint that right?
Thats what they say
Every night...
Every day...
Hey, we cant really be dumb
If were just following gods orders
Hey, lets get serious...
God knows what hes doin
He wrote this book here
An the book says:
He made us all to be just like him,
So...
If were dumb...
Then God is dumb...
(an maybe even a little ugly on the side)


Frank Zappa
 
Sure, the commies oppress the religious. But, do they kill them?

Yes.

And I don't care why.

All peaceful people should be allowed to live free.

I don't care what they believe or teach their children to believe.

I just care about how they behave in society.

So I will fight against the collectivist atheists and for the individualist believer, even though I am not a believer and even if I think the religious man is wrong or foolish in their belief.
 
We argue because of the State

The reason people argue so vehemently over this issue is because deep down, they realize that your worldview about existence and the meaning of life ultimately affects how you view everything else. In the current environment it also means your view of government and its role is different.

Government is force, and since this force permeates every aspect of our lives, its management by theists versus atheists matters a great deal, and both options are bad. We've already seen in this thread that some resent the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. Because we are all at the mercy of the State, this kind of resentment will happen when one group enjoys more largess (or in the case of tax exemption: less persecution) from the State than another. Meanwhile, many Christians resent legalized abortion or state sanction of gay marriage.

There are theists and atheists in the world, and the State drives us apart. The State is the entity which may use coercion in your life, and if someone whose beliefs are alien to yours are steering that coercion, you should certainly feel threatened. We shouldn't be debating whether theists or atheists should be in charge. We should be debating whether anyone should be "in charge" at all.

Since I assume all of us believe in liberty, being on the Ron Paul forums, we believe in a system under which this difference of existential worldview would matter very little, because our ideal is that of a government WITHOUT the ability to exert this kind of force on your life.
 
The reason people argue so vehemently over this issue is because deep down, they realize that your worldview about existence and the meaning of life ultimately affects how you view everything else. In the current environment it also means your view of government and its role is different.

Government is force, and since this force permeates every aspect of our lives, its management by theists versus atheists matters a great deal, and both options are bad. We've already seen in this thread that some resent the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. Because we are all at the mercy of the State, this kind of resentment will happen when one group enjoys more largess (or in the case of tax exemption: less persecution) from the State than another. Meanwhile, many Christians resent legalized abortion or state sanction of gay marriage.

There are theists and atheists in the world, and the State drives us apart. The State is the entity which may use coercion in your life, and if someone whose beliefs are alien to yours are steering that coercion, you should certainly feel threatened. We shouldn't be debating whether theists or atheists should be in charge. We should be debating whether anyone should be "in charge" at all.

Since I assume all of us believe in liberty, being on the Ron Paul forums, we believe in a system under which this difference of existential worldview would matter very little, because our ideal is that of a government WITHOUT the ability to exert this kind of force on your life.

What he said.
 
WilliamC, WilliamC

Only if you wish for words to mean the opposite of what they mean.

Doublespeak eh Theocrat?

Just as the opposite of good is evil, the opposite of individualism is collectivism.

Evidently, you didn't understand what I saying. If you truly wanted to be consistent in your view of individualism, then you should not take issue with individuals or individual institutions, such as governments, businesses, and churches, that adhere to collectivist ideas, policies, and sanctions upon a society. After all, they have their "individual" rights to believe and/or behave in that fashion. By the way, there's nothing wrong with collectivism. You, as an individual, are a part of many groups of people within society. You are the son of two parents in a family. You are a citizen of the United States of America. If you work, you are an employee of a business. Your identity is contingent upon these groups, in some way. Even as a Ron Paul supporter, you are one of many enthusiastic, well-informed Americans who also supports Congressman Paul's message.

Well then when you say you want to destroy me you must mean something different than the true meaning of the word destroy.

Why not simply say you think I'm wrong and you want to peaceably convert me to your religion?

Can you please show me where I ever said to you I "want to destroy you"? I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, WilliamC. I keep telling you that I don't want to destroy you as a person, but you apparently keep missing that point. Seriously, dude, what are you, a cry-baby or something? "Oh, the big bad Theocrat wants to hurt me because he said my views were wrong and he means to destroy them. Boo who." Oh, man! For the sake of a more peaceful discourse between us, I'll just say that you're wrong, and there's nothing I can do to convert you. That's God's job.

The only absolute and objective truth I know of comes from the study of mathematics, since it is the language of the natural Universe.

All philosophy and religion is based on human experience, therefore it is all subjective.

Oh, yeah? What mathematical formula was used to formulate these statements of yours?

But do you want to use coercion or force to make me change my beliefs? If you remove that option then I don't have a problem with you.

My ideas are a result of my experience and my free-will decisions to adopt them. Only by denying my free-will and seeking to harm me will you be able to take them from me.

I could care less what you believe about religion or some afterlife, it's your choice. I'm not trying to destroy you or your ideas, even though I don't agree with them.

I am not capable to force or coerce you or anyone else to my beliefs, neither would I want to. That's not my method at all.

I would say that no man has free-will to choose to do good or choose to do evil because we all are born with sinful natures. That's a subject for a different forum altogether.

Yes, he was a great philosopher. If you and others want to look to him for your salvation then that's your choice. I don't care.

Just don't try to force us peaceful non-believers to agree with you on pain of being destroyed. Christians have done that for hundreds of years and it isn't very...Christ-like.

You don't even know what it means to be "Christ-like." You don't even like Christ because you refuse to keep His commandments everyday.

I don't submit to Allah, or Zeus, or Brahama, or any number of imaginary superpower beings that people have lived and died for all throughout history.

Oh, yeah, but you will submit yourself to those imaginary forces of random chance in the universe which is responsible for creating everything we see today out of nothing...

I reject your religion for the same reason you reject theirs. I don't trust the source of them.

That's not true. I reject their superstition because it's not based on absolute truth from the Bible. You reject the truth of my beliefs because of your own arbitrary feelings, which are only subjective in nature.

Only if you seek to implement your plan to destroy my beliefs by doing violence to me or mine.

If not then preach on.

Thank you very much for giving me permission to preach my beliefs on this forum, based on the condition of your own thoughts of what's right and wrong. :rolleyes:
 
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The only absolute and objective truth I know of comes from the study of mathematics, since it is the language of the natural Universe.

You're not alone. Reasoning from self-evident truths puts you in the company of Reneé Descartes, Ludwig von Mises, and some very famous Christians. A recent issue of The New American had a great article about faith being the triumph of reason.

You may not share my belief system, but Christianity is no stranger to logic.
 
Evidently, you didn't understand what I saying. If you truly wanted to be consistent in your view of individualism, then you should not take issue with individuals or individual institutions, such as governments, businesses, and churches, that adhere to collectivist ideas, policies, and sanctions upon a society. After all, they have their "individual" rights to believe and/or behave in that fashion. By the way, there's nothing wrong with collectivism. You, as an individual, are a part of many groups of people within society. You are the son of two parents in a family. You are a citizen of the United States of America. If you work, you are an employee of a business. Your identity is contingent upon these groups, in some way. Even as a Ron Paul supporter, you are one of many enthusiastic, well-informed Americans who also supports Congressman Paul's message.

Only individuals have rights. Groups do not. While I belong to many groups I have no rights because of them. My rights are inherent as an individual human.

The problem with collectivism is when a group wants to assume some sort of authority over individuals against the will of individuals not in the group.

Governments do this by definition, but I seek to limit the role of governments to only protecting the rights of peaceful individuals.

Do you think that any group or collection of people somehow gains new rights because of their affiliation with the group, or do you think that rights are something that only an individual can lay claim to?

Can you please show me where I ever said to you I "want to destroy you"?

Yes. Try here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=90262&highlight=WilliamC&page=20

These are questions I'm just eagerly waiting for you to answer, WilliamC. But don't be surprised if the "electrical-chemical processes" in my brain force me to disagree with you and conclude that you are simply a fool and need to be extinct...

and here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=90262

I didn't threaten you, but what I meant was that your reasoning is dangerous, and thus, needs to be destroyed. I guess I should have phrased it better.

Sorry, but when you call for me to become extinct, or that I need to have my reason destroyed, I kind of take that as a personal attack.

Will you now retract your statement that you wish to see me become extinct and that you want to see my reasoning destroyed?

I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, WilliamC. I keep telling you that I don't want to destroy you as a person, but you apparently keep missing that point. Seriously, dude, what are you, a cry-baby or something? "Oh, the big bad Theocrat wants to hurt me because he said my views were wrong and he means to destroy them. Boo who." Oh, man! For the sake of a more peaceful discourse between us, I'll just say that you're wrong, and there's nothing I can do to convert you. That's God's job.

There you go, that's not so hard is it?

Just say you are merely trying to peacefully convert me and not make me extinct or see my reasoning destroyed, and I will cease to believe you are out to do me harm.

Personally I don't use the language you do when engaging in civil discourse. I'm not out to destroy your beliefs even if I don't agree with them.


Oh, yeah? What mathematical formula was used to formulate these statements of yours?

Mathematics is inherently self-evident and, presumably, will work the same for any non-human intelligence in the Universe. While we don't have any examples of higher mathematical ability in other organisms there is good evidence that animals have a math instinct which allows them, among other things, to migrate long distances accurately.

see http://www.maa.org/devlin/devlin_03_05.html

But if you aren't interested in learning mathematics that's ok, your life, your choice.

I am not capable to force or coerce you or anyone else to my beliefs, neither would I want to. That's not my method at all.

So saying you want to destroy my reasoning and you think I need to be extinct is just...a poor choice of words?

Ok, apology accepted.

I would say that no man has free-will to choose to do good or choose to do evil because we all are born with sinful natures. That's a subject for a different forum altogether.

And here I thought the entire idea of sin relied on the fact that humans had free-will and could choose to do good or evil.

Shows how much I know.


You don't even know what it means to be "Christ-like." You don't even like Christ because you refuse to keep His commandments everyday.

Who was it that said something about removing the beam from one's own eye before trying to remove the speck from anothers?

You know nothing of how I conduct myself Theocrat.

Oh, yeah, but you will submit yourself to those imaginary forces of random chance in the universe which is responsible for creating everything we see today out of nothing...

This makes no sense at all.

I am as much at the mercy of the laws of nature as anyone, but I don't "submit" to them.

If I decide not to jump off a building it's not because I submit to gravity, it's just because I don't want to get hurt or die.

That's not true. I reject their superstition because it's not based on absolute truth from the Bible. You reject the truth of my beliefs because of your own arbitrary feelings, which are only subjective in nature.

Your bible, their koran. It's one and the same to me. I reject both.


Thank you very much for giving me permission to preach my beliefs on this forum, based on the condition of your own thoughts of what's right and wrong. :rolleyes:

You are welcome, although it is the moderators who decide what gets to stay and what gets deleted.
 
You're not alone. Reasoning from self-evident truths puts you in the company of Reneé Descartes, Ludwig von Mises, and some very famous Christians. A recent issue of The New American had a great article about faith being the triumph of reason.

You may not share my belief system, but Christianity is no stranger to logic.

Well if god expresses his word through mathematics I am a very poor follower, but I do try and learn more most every day.

There is something about truly understanding how math works that is very satisfying to me.

Darn this stupid political stuff that takes my time away from it! :mad:
 
Any proof that Communists kill Christians?

"All peaceful people should be allowed to live free."

...and they should be TAXED equally.

If anyone believes that the United States is a "Christian nation", they cannot believe that Christians are a "peaceful people". The USA has been for and about war for a couple of centuries now. Christians have participated whole-heartedly. Yeah, they talk a lot about peace, but when the caller comes calling, they send their young off to kill. Hail Jesus.

Communists oppress the religious, but there's no indication that they are participating in any sort of genocide of the religious. The history of religion, however, is fraught with crusades, inquisitions, witch-burnings, and "manifest destinies". I'm not trying to defend idelogical fantaticism against religious fantaticism, I'm just trying to display the blatant hypocrisy evident in the dominant paradigm. The commies imprison religious leaders because they see religion as a scam against the people. In a capitalist society, a scam is just business as usual, so why do these guys get a break on the taxes?

Here we are, in the 21st century, still fighting wars over religion. You know what the Judeo-Christian tradition really hates about Islam? Islam does not tolerate usury. In Muslim cultures, the bank takes some of the risk on a home loan. Imagine that...you only wind up paying a little more than the selling price of the house, not three times the selling price. Corporations cannot build sky-touching glass and steel phallic structures under such a system. Muslims don't understand Western business at all, so "it's best to just get rid of them" seems to be the prevailing Judeo-Christian view. That's what this war is about...not WMD, not terrorism, not "Islamo-fascism". It's about one religon subjecting another to their will.

Two little Hitlers will fight it out until one little Hitler does the other one's will.

Sorry I ever thought mankind would rise above it. If you want to talk peace to me, preacher, get your congregation out in the street demandiing an end to these wars, and I will then call you a "peaceful people". Otherwise, you're nothing but platitudes and prayers...that, and a tax-free Cadillac.
 
I was explaining the intent of my first post on this thread to you. I find it interesting, WilliamC, that you constantly talk about problems with "collectivism," yet your adherence to "individualism" is itself the product of a collectivist mindset because you wish all people would acknowledge the individuality or individual rights of each other together. It seems to me you've overlooked your own collectivism.
Huh? :confused: What sophistry.

Theocrat said:
I agree with you that it's good for people to argue in peace without coercion and violence. I've never advocated that in any of my posts. I try to deal with arguments based on absolute and objective truth, but it seems to me that you don't believe in that sort of truth. I don't have to push my beliefs on anyone, but I do believe that people are wrong when they don't accept absolute truth, which comes from God, not me.
It's the 21st century and precious few educated people are going to falling for this sort of "It's not me that's talking, It's God" crap.

Theocrat said:
I don't know how many times I have to reiterate to you, WilliamC, that I do not wish to destroy you as a person.
No, you just want to take over people's minds. :D

Theocrat said:
It's not necessarily about people believing as I believe, but rather it's about people believing and obeying God.
Sure, as the Muslims say, there is no God but Allah. So apparently, by ranting on about Jesus Christ being God, you are neither believing in nor obeying God.

But of course, the simple logic here is that you arbitrarily chose to accept one set of religious teachings over another and, much like many extremists of another ilk, you make no room for any flexibility of viewpoint.

Theocrat said:
Muslims are fatally wrong about their conceptions of God because they reject God's true revelation in His holy Scriptures. Therefore, Islam is just superstition.
See what I'm talking about?
 
WilliamC said:
Theocrat said:
I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself, WilliamC. I keep telling you that I don't want to destroy you as a person, but you apparently keep missing that point. Seriously, dude, what are you, a cry-baby or something? "Oh, the big bad Theocrat wants to hurt me because he said my views were wrong and he means to destroy them. Boo who." Oh, man! For the sake of a more peaceful discourse between us, I'll just say that you're wrong, and there's nothing I can do to convert you. That's God's job.
There you go, that's not so hard is it?
Don't be so quick to come to that conclusion that Theocrat has somehow returned to the land of the sane, WilliamC, by "God's job" of course, Theocrat means "God working through him"... much like suicide bombers believe they are doing "God's work".
 
This thread is fascinating, as is the article Kade posted. The article itself was a bit sensational, to be honest. It was designed to appeal to atheists, likely written by an atheist. There is nothing wrong with that, but it could hardly be taken as exhaustive or objective. Again, as it is an opinion piece, there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

However, I take some exception to the notion that

...an intellectually free America, as intended by our founders, remerges[sic] as more and more atheist/agnostic freethinkers come out of the closet and stand against theism’s last bigoted prejudicial stronghold of intolerance.

I would reason that in "an intellectually free America," atheists and theists could live side by side, sharing, tolerating, and even intermixing their ideas. The implied premise that intellectual freedom requires atheism is rather tired, I think. I also find the notion that said premise was articulated by the founders rather far-fetched. Indeed, I believe the founders to be a shining example of rational theism. Acting upon humanist and core Abrahamic principles, the founders crafted possibly one of the finest of all human documents. Would that the author would recognize this.

I was amused at how many negatives the author managed to tack onto the final sentence. "...last bigoted prejudicial stronghold of intolerance." My, what a mouthful. The last sentences of an article are of disproportional import. They are the last words digested before the reader can reflect on the full writing, and, unconsciously or not, often comprise a restatement of the paper's core thesis. I find the argument - his thesis - that bare theism promotes bigoted, prejudicial intolerance rather...one-dimensional.

In short, the author seems as intolerant as those who are intolerant towards him. I feel that the rational approach would be to set aside invective and emotion and investigate what precisely causes such a divide. Perhaps if the causes were identified, the friction could be lessened by dialogue and conversation. Maintaining a collectivist view of the situation, as in so many disparate cases, only serves to exacerbate tensions. There are always individuals who do not fit neatly into the artificial constructs of the author's imagining, and it is they who emerge from the faults of his logic to poke holes, merely by existing, in his argument.

If the author, who professes the possession of an open and free mind, can so willfully package all of theism in such an unflattering mold, what possible grounds does he have to reject the "bigoted," "prejudicial," and "intolerant" theists who transgress his belief in a like manner?

I will disclose that I am a Muslim myself; you readers can judge whether theism has blinkered my rationality.

Having said that, I am saddened by some of the other posts on here. Are no theists curious as to what caused a particular atheist to reject the notion of divinity? Are no atheists curious as to why or how theists can accept a premise they feel is absurd? The death of curiosity is the death of reason. One cannot merely inform himself, nor can he sample only those ideas which are in concordance with his own; the perspective of those foreign to him is required in the formulation of any objective frame.

Still, threads like this are the reason I frequent this wonderful place :o
 
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I don't hate "atheists," but I do hate "atheism." In my opinion, it is the most irrational, dangerous, diabolical, contradictory, and foolish theories that mankind has ever formulated as a philosophy and view of the world. Therefore, I, as a Christian theist, will continue to seek its destruction until it is eradicated from the world as a system of thought and lifestyle.
You have just categorically stated that you will not tolerate the fact that other people can hold different view from you. Like I said, "Islamic Jihadism" by another name.

Theocrat said:
In passing, I would say that "atheists" hate theists more than theists hate them because "atheists" love sin and hate God, by nature. One can only think of the Christian hate speeches of Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris, as international spokesman of "atheism." If you want to witness hatred and aggression as you've never seen in a human being, just read any of their works or listen to their speeches. It will definitely send chills up your spine and make your blood boil. It's just too bad these guys will have to face an angry and righteous God on Judgment Day to give an account of their perpetual hate, aggression, and ridicule towards God's people (unless they turn from their wicked ways and believe in the truth of God's revelation).
Personally, I believe it was well overdue that Jesus Freaks and the like got spanked for their annoying, irresponsible behaviour.

Like begets like. So when you choose a handle like "Theocrat" and imply that religion somehow has forceful authority over individual freedom and choices (completely contradictory to the notion of a 'republic'), don't be complaining when you get an earful in return.
 
Having said that, I am saddened by some of the other posts on here. Are no theists curious as to what caused a particular atheist to reject the notion of divinity? Are no atheists curious as to why or how theists can accept a premise they feel is absurd? The death of curiosity is the death of reason. One cannot merely inform himself, nor can he sample only those ideas which are in concordance with his own; the perspective of those foreign to him is required in the formulation of any objective frame.

Still, threads like this are the reason I frequent this wonderful place :o

My understanding of religion and acceptance of religious beliefs is that it requires faith, and specifically faith in the unknowable or that which cannot be demonstrated by reason.

Alas one of my great failings is that I have little if any of that sort of faith, and I rely perhaps too much upon my reason to guide me through life.

It is obvious that most of humanity does not share my almost complete lack of faith and reliance upon reason, perhaps that is why I don't relate to them as well in my personal life as I might like.
 
It is obvious that most of humanity does not share my almost complete lack of faith and reliance upon reason, perhaps that is why I don't relate to them as well in my personal life as I might like.
I wouldn't be too quick to come to that depressing conclusion.

Thanks to the Internet, more and more people are realizing that they are not alone in their doubts and skepticism about religious dogma. Look at how many young people were empowered and emboldened to rebel against oppressive, irrational beliefs via blasphemychallenge.com. There are more of us out there than you might think.

It takes a braver soul to let go of the comfort blanket of a fantasy deity and yet still maintain a belief in the inherent goodness of most of humanity. The cowardly path is actually to cling to and resign difficult moral decisions to an unaccountable, arbitrary, (and illusory, I might add) authority figure whose dictates are essentially pulled out of a hat. Discarding such a comfort blanket will ultimately make us stronger and more moral beings because our desire to improve and do good is not based on fear of punishment but rather on more enlightened principles.

I believe if you look back in history, you will be shocked (or maybe we shouldn't be) at the number of bloodthirsty, corrupt and evil personalities who would essentially confess to "believing in God". Belief in "God" has very little to do with whether a person is moral or not, apparently.
 
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This thread is fascinating, as is the article Kade posted. The article itself was a bit sensational, to be honest. It was designed to appeal to atheists, likely written by an atheist. There is nothing wrong with that, but it could hardly be taken as exhaustive or objective. Again, as it is an opinion piece, there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

However, I take some exception to the notion that



I would reason that in "an intellectually free America," atheists and theists could live side by side, sharing, tolerating, and even intermixing their ideas. The implied premise that intellectual freedom requires atheism is rather tired, I think. I also find the notion that said premise was articulated by the founders rather far-fetched. Indeed, I believe the founders to be a shining example of rational theism. Acting upon humanist and core Abrahamic principles, the founders crafted possibly one of the finest of all human documents. Would that the author would recognize this.

I was amused at how many negatives the author managed to tack onto the final sentence. "...last bigoted prejudicial stronghold of intolerance." My, what a mouthful. The last sentences of an article are of disproportional import. They are the last words digested before the reader can reflect on the full writing, and, unconsciously or not, often comprise a restatement of the paper's core thesis. I find the argument - his thesis - that bare theism promotes bigoted, prejudicial intolerance rather...one-dimensional.

In short, the author seems as intolerant as those who are intolerant towards him. I feel that the rational approach would be to set aside invective and emotion and investigate what precisely causes such a divide. Perhaps if the causes were identified, the friction could be lessened by dialogue and conversation. Maintaining a collectivist view of the situation, as in so many disparate cases, only serves to exacerbate tensions. There are always individuals who do not fit neatly into the artificial constructs of the author's imagining, and it is they who emerge from the faults of his logic to poke holes, merely by existing, in his argument.

If the author, who professes the possession of an open and free mind, can so willfully package all of theism in such an unflattering mold, what possible grounds does he have to reject the "bigoted," "prejudicial," and "intolerant" theists who transgress his belief in a like manner?

I will disclose that I am a Muslim myself; you readers can judge whether theism has blinkered my rationality.

Having said that, I am saddened by some of the other posts on here. Are no theists curious as to what caused a particular atheist to reject the notion of divinity? Are no atheists curious as to why or how theists can accept a premise they feel is absurd? The death of curiosity is the death of reason. One cannot merely inform himself, nor can he sample only those ideas which are in concordance with his own; the perspective of those foreign to him is required in the formulation of any objective frame.

Still, threads like this are the reason I frequent this wonderful place :o

This is completely off topic, but I've read many of your posts, and...well, your words tend to have a very reasoned calming effect, I think.
Are you as eloquent in real life as you are in print? If so, I think you'd do quite well running for public office. :)
 
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