The Single Tax - Land Value Tax (LVT)

Already CONCLUSIVELY PROVED FALSE in the very post you are avoiding giving a response to, and have no arguments to offer in rebuttal (which argument you would lose if you did).
Not only did you not prove it false, you didn't even say anything related to it.
It's not that you "don't know any economics", Matt. It's that you don't understand it, as clearly shown by what you consistently and ignorantly misapply, as you ERRONEOUSLY conflate the total quantity in existence (which is NOT the definition of supply) with the actual economics definition of supply. As if they were one and the same.
Please explain how the amount of land available increases with the price paid for it.
A million profit-maximizing landowners do not affect the aggregate total land in existence. They do, however, VERY MUCH affect "supply" and "quantity supplied" as it is defined in economics. Every single day.
No, they do not. They are no different from one profit-maximizing landowner: none of them can do any better than to accept the high bid.
You swallowed a BIG LIE, Matt. Enormous. Swallowed it hard, too. A little critical thinking on your part could have saved you a lot of time and wasted energy.
<yawn> Yes, I'm sure you know better than all the Nobel laureates in economics who understand why the supply of land is fixed.
You could still support LVT - just not on that particular (and quite provably false) house-of-cards assumption that you were sucked into believing.
You could still oppose LVT for the actual reason you oppose it, Steven -- that it would remove your privilege of taking a portion of production by forcible extortion, without making any commensurate contribution to production -- just not by pretending that it isn't provably superior to all other taxes on economic grounds.
 
All goods are assumed to trade at some price.

Ah, so then we'll call those things that don't trade at some price "other-than-goods". A rose by any other name...

I await your example of goods that won't trade at any price.

I can go along with it, now that I know how you define "goods" (i.e., things that are assumed to trade at some price). It's all that other "non-goods" stuff I'm referring to, whatever you want to call it.

Yes, it is. You just refuse to know that "price" in economics is the amount an item DOES TRADE for.

Wonderful. And if it DOES NOT TRADE, then it has no PRICE, and is not counted as a "GOOD". Cool beans.

At what price is land not "supplied"?

How about ALL THE PRICES of land around my ten acre plot over the past sixty-two years. My land was never "supplied" at any of those prices. Take all those prices, and the answer is "ALL OF THEM".

Oh. I forgot something... according to you...

"Price" means they are willing to sell it.

OK, cool beans again. I guess since no owner in my family was willing to sell it, it didn't have a price. And was not, therefore, "supply".

Right. Just as the land that wouldn't sell at ANY PRICE -- if any such land existed -- would not be part of the supply, and WOULD NOT AFFECT THE FIXITY OF SUPPLY.

There you go again, as you jump conveniently from goalpost to goalpost, with two different definitions of supply.

My land, which for my entire life has not sold at ANY PRICE was also not part of the supply. IT DID NOT AFFECT THE QUANTITY OR FIXITY OF LAND EXTANT. And it also did not affect "SUPPLY" in the MARKET SCHEDULE SENSE OF SUPPLY.

Nope. Supply of such items CAN'T vary according to price. Whatever the price those items trade at, supply will not increase.

ONLY because you are jumping between two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT definitions of supply. Meaningless, Roy. Absolutely meaningless.
 
Roy and Matt, your arguments are DUST. Annihilated. Not in your minds of course, but I didn't expect that, and neither is it that important. It was good to isolate for myself and identify the lies firsthand. You have both swallowed and are clinging to some massive lies, ones that most thinking people can see through immediately, based on semantics sleight-of-hand and the number of definition hoops you ask others to jump through -- as if they wouldn't notice.

And I'm done for now, leaving you to your economics religion and all its fallacious sleight-of-hand tenets that you so fervently, devoutly, passionately and religiously believe in -- and all hinged on the tortured twisting of a single word!

It is no wonder to me that most economists ignore LVT and the many Henry George-spawned theories of Land Socialism. It's utter bunk on its face, as it relies on twisted versions of misapplied and misunderstood theories, while ignoring the basic reality that LAND PARCELS CIRCULATE - behaving as any other durable good in the market-schedule sense of the word, as it is supplied and resupplied to the market like any other scarce, durable good.
 
Any "economist" that claims that the supply of land is fixed is NOT referring to economics definition of supply as it relates to a supply curve.
Yes, he most certainly is. If you can't figure out what a bunch of weasel-word garbage Hurlburt's article is, it can only be because you don't understand it.
It's self-disputing, because a single profit-maximizing landowner eliminates a Perfectly Competitive Market. A single profit-maximizing landowner can directly affect both supply and price (the amount he is willing to make available at a given price),
No, he can't. He can only renounce profit maximization by making land unavailable at its market price. Large landowners have normally done this in order to force their tenants into utter destitution, thus obtaining easier access to their wives and daughters: if a man is starving to death, you can usually have his daughter for $10. But if he has $10, you can't get his daughter for $1000.
whereas a million profit-maximizing landowners have only a minimal affect on price, with only total control over the amount they are willing to make available at the prevailing price.
<sigh> Its price is the amount at which it IS available, by definition.

And btw, no landowner ever "makes land available," Steven, as it would be available if he had never existed. The landowner's only function is to make land UNavailable unless his extortion demands are met.
So they would indeed behave very differently.
Nope. They can have no effect whatever on price, which is determined by the Law of Rent, nor on supply, which is fixed. They have only one way they can affect the market: renounce profit maximization, and simply stop others from using the land by force, like a greedy, evil dog in the manger. The thousands of vacant lots you see in every major American city demonstrate the popularity of this option.
We're talking about landowners buying and selling tracts or acres of land, in much the same way art dealers buy and sell works of dead artists - the quantity of which is fixed, but not the supply.
Supply is fixed, as it does not vary by price.
The difference with land - works of dead artists can be destroyed. Buying and selling does not INCREASE the quantity of land in existence, but neither does it DECREASE the quantity in existence. It remains constant, as land that IS made available by owners as the supply CIRCULATES.
Land is already available without anyone having to "make it available," Steven. The landowner's only economic function is to make it unavailable unless someone pays him off. He is nothing but an extortionist and a pure parasite, and if he is willing to sell "his" land for $1M, it is no more land than if he is willing to sell it for $1.

You just don't understand that.
 
None of the above counts as an argument, Matt. You have to actually present and argument. Say WHY it's a lie.
No I don't.

Any "economist" that claims that the supply of land is fixed is NOT referring to economics definition of supply as it relates to a supply curve.
Yes, they are.

It's self-disputing, because a single profit-maximizing landowner eliminates a Perfectly Competitive Market. A single profit-maximizing landowner can directly affect both supply and price (the amount he is willing to make available at a given price), whereas a million profit-maximizing landowners have only a minimal affect on price, with only total control over the amount they are willing to make available at the prevailing price. So they would indeed behave very differently.
No, they wouldn't. You've simply claimed they would, but I've already explained why they wouldn't.

We're talking about landowners buying and selling tracts or acres of land, in much the same way art dealers buy and sell works of dead artists - the quantity of which is fixed, but not the supply.
Yes, and the supply.

The difference with land - works of dead artists can be destroyed.
That's not really a relevant difference, but ok.

Buying and selling does not INCREASE the quantity of land in existence, but neither does it DECREASE the quantity in existence. It remains constant, as land that IS made available by owners as the supply CIRCULATES.
This doesn't parse. You've worked yourself into confusion again.
 
Roy and Matt, your arguments are DUST. Annihilated. Not in your minds of course, but I didn't expect that, and neither is it that important. It was good to isolate for myself and identify the lies firsthand. You have both swallowed and are clinging to some massive lies, ones that most thinking people can see through immediately, based on semantics sleight-of-hand and the number of definition hoops you ask others to jump through -- as if they wouldn't notice.

And I'm done for now, leaving you to your economics religion and all its fallacious sleight-of-hand tenets that you so fervently, devoutly, passionately and religiously believe in -- and all hinged on the tortured twisting of a single word!

It is no wonder to me that most economists ignore LVT and the many Henry George-spawned theories of Land Socialism. It's utter bunk on its face, as it relies on twisted versions of misapplied and misunderstood theories, while ignoring the basic reality that LAND PARCELS CIRCULATE - behaving as any other durable good in the market-schedule sense of the word, as it is supplied and resupplied to the market like any other scarce, durable good.
You just idiotically claim that nothing is fixed in supply, because owners might not sell. It's just stupid nonsense.
 
Ah, so then we'll call those things that don't trade at some price "other-than-goods".
I've given some examples of things that can't trade and aren't goods. I'm sure you can think of some, too. But land won't be one of them.
I can go along with it, now that I know how you define "goods" (i.e., things that are assumed to trade at some price). It's all that other "non-goods" stuff I'm referring to, whatever you want to call it.
Let's try land. Name the land that won't trade at ANY price.
And if it DOES NOT TRADE, then it has no PRICE, and is not counted as a "GOOD".
Non sequitur fallacy. It could trade, and is therefore a good.
How about ALL THE PRICES of land around my ten acre plot over the past sixty-two years. My land was never "supplied" at any of those prices.
Of course not. No more than a Rembrandt is going to be supplied at the price of a Rockwell. Duh.
Take all those prices, and the answer is "ALL OF THEM".
?? None of them was a price of "your" land. Duh.
I guess since no owner in my family was willing to sell it, it didn't have a price. And was not, therefore, "supply".
Lie. You know that your family was willing to sell it, just not at the market. And if the price had been $1M, you know that they would not have been able to sell any more of it for $1G.
There you go again, as you jump conveniently from goalpost to goalpost, with two different definitions of supply.
No. It is you who are trying to use two (or more) different definitions of "price."
My land, which for my entire life has not sold at ANY PRICE was also not part of the supply.
Nonsense. Of course it was, and you know it, because at any time, it would have been sold for a high enough offer. That accepted offer would have become its price.
IT DID NOT AFFECT THE QUANTITY OR FIXITY OF LAND EXTANT. And it also did not affect "SUPPLY" in the MARKET SCHEDULE SENSE OF SUPPLY.
Of course not, because it was part of supply whether it sold or not.
ONLY because you are jumping between two ENTIRELY DIFFERENT definitions of supply.
No, I am not. YOU are jumping between entirely different definitions of "price."
Meaningless, Roy. Absolutely meaningless.
Mirror time, Steven. Mirror time.
 
Roy and Matt, your arguments are DUST. Annihilated.
LOL!
You have both swallowed and are clinging to some massive lies, ones that most thinking people can see through immediately, based on semantics sleight-of-hand and the number of definition hoops you ask others to jump through -- as if they wouldn't notice.
All we ask is that you use the economic definitions of "supply" and "price." But you won't.
And I'm done for now, leaving you to your economics religion and all its fallacious sleight-of-hand tenets that you so fervently, devoutly, passionately and religiously believe in -- and all hinged on the tortured twisting of a single word!
It's the CONCEPT that you refuse to know, Steven, not the words or definitions or arguments. You just have to refuse to know the fact that landowners won't and can't supply any more OR LESS land, no matter how much or how little we are paying them for it, and THAT'S WHAT FIXED SUPPLY MEANS.
It is no wonder to me that most economists ignore LVT and the many Henry George-spawned theories of Land Socialism. It's utter bunk on its face, as it relies on twisted versions of misapplied and misunderstood theories, while ignoring the basic reality that LAND PARCELS CIRCULATE - behaving as any other durable good in the market-schedule sense of the word, as it is supplied and resupplied to the market like any other scarce, durable good.
<sigh> You just blankly refuse to know the fact that land parcels can ONLY circulate, while produced durable goods can and will be ADDED to the existing supply at higher prices, and not added at lower prices.
 
Roy and Matt, your arguments are DUST. Annihilated. Not in your minds of course, but I didn't expect that, and neither is it that important. It was good to isolate for myself and identify the lies firsthand. You have both swallowed and are clinging to some massive lies, ones that most thinking people can see through immediately, based on semantics sleight-of-hand and the number of definition hoops you ask others to jump through -- as if they wouldn't notice.

And I'm done for now, leaving you to your economics religion and all its fallacious sleight-of-hand tenets that you so fervently, devoutly, passionately and religiously believe in -- and all hinged on the tortured twisting of a single word!

It is no wonder to me that most economists ignore LVT and the many Henry George-spawned theories of Land Socialism. It's utter bunk on its face, as it relies on twisted versions of misapplied and misunderstood theories, while ignoring the basic reality that LAND PARCELS CIRCULATE - behaving as any other durable good in the market-schedule sense of the word, as it is supplied and resupplied to the market like any other scarce, durable good.
Just out of curiosity, are any anti-LVT types who might have been reading this exchange at all embarrassed for Steven? Or are you somehow able to persuade yourselves that refusal to know facts is the same as those facts not being true? Helmuth? Eduardo?
 
humiliation vs supplying information

Just out of curiosity, are any anti-LVT types who might have been reading this exchange at all embarrassed for Steven? Or are you somehow able to persuade yourselves that refusal to know facts is the same as those facts not being true? Helmuth? Eduardo?


Roy, I'm pro-LVT but generally my position is that people are persuaded via dialogue, not via attacking and gloating.
 
Roy, I'm pro-LVT but generally my position is that people are persuaded via dialogue, not via attacking and gloating.
I persuade via dialogue until the lying starts. Which it always does. At that point, the anti-LVT liar has relinquished any claim to courteous or even civil treatment, and deserves to be not only attacked but crushed, brutalized, demolished and humiliated, which I then do. The optimal outcome is that the anti-LVT liar realizes he has been lying to serve the greatest evil that has ever existed in the history of the world, wishes he had never been born, and slits his belly open while kneeling in a cesspool to atone for his monstrous crimes against liberty, justice, virtue, truth, and all humanity.

The role of vicious, evil, lying filth in rationalizing, justifying, enabling and sustaining massive, systematic, institutionalized evil is well portrayed in "Judgment at Nuremberg." I suggest you watch it to get an idea of the appropriate role of "persuasion via dialogue" in fighting the greatest evil in the history of the world. Those who have deliberately chosen to lie to serve evil cannot be persuaded via dialogue any more than a serial killer can be persuaded to respect others' rights to life via dialogue.
 
I'm new to this thread so I just want to clarify something

The role of vicious, evil, lying filth in rationalizing, justifying, enabling and sustaining massive, systematic, institutionalized evil

This guy, ^^, is FOR land value tax?
 
A good thread. The initial posts in the thread by JohnLVT simplified understanding of LVT somewhat with his responses to Douglas being quite good to clarify some murk. Matt clarified quite elegantly. Roy L is deep thinker for sure but far too abrasive for many.

LVT is quite simple. Land values were created by the economic activity of a community (economic fact) and hence belong to that community. What you earn you keep, no Income Tax, etc, and the state does not steal from you what is yours. The state reclaims what the community created (in the form of land values) and steals from no one.

Why people find difficulty understanding something so simple I don't know.
 
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LVT would cripple farmers.

The best crop land typically develops cities around it. As the cities develop, they encroach on the farms. The farmer who refuses to see his back 40 to the urban developer because it is the best productive soil around is taxed out of it via LVT. Thus, the Kent valley SW of Seattle, the best farmland in WA state was paved over.

Actually, it's the current situation, where land is not taxed at a high rate, that results in sprawl: as current city owners refuse to sell, anticipating higher prices in the future, people have to seek land elsewhere: at the edge of town. Not taxing land at a high rates causes sprawl, LVT prevents it.

Matt, that is a very good point. The vibrancy is taken out of town and city centres because land values are not taxed. Vibrant towns and cities (nice places to live) attract people and industry.
 
The real root cause reason for the crash? Read on.......

Martin Wolf - Chief economist of the Financial Times.....

Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it. This applies not least to the immense financial and economic crisis into which the world has fallen. So what lay behind it? The answer is the credit-fuelled property cycle. The people of the US, UK, Spain and Ireland became feverish speculators in land. Today, the toxic waste poisons the entire world economy.

In 1984, I bought my London house. I estimate that the land on which it sits was worth £100,000 in today’s prices. Today, the value is perhaps ten times as great. All of that vast increment is the fruit of no effort of mine. It is the reward of owning a location that the efforts of others made valuable, reinforced by a restrictive planning regime and generous tax treatment – property taxes are low and gains tax-free.

So I am a land speculator – a mini-aristocrat in a land where private appropriation of the fruits of others’ efforts has long been a prime route to wealth. This appropriation of the rise in the value of land is not just unfair: what have I done to deserve this increase in my wealth? It has obviously dire consequences.

First, it makes it necessary for the state to fund itself by taxing effort, ingenuity and foresight. Taxation of labour and capital must lower their supply. Taxation of resources will not have the same result, because supply is given. Such taxes reduce the unearned rewards to owners.

Second, this system creates calamitous political incentives. In a world in which people have borrowed heavily to own a location, they are desperate to enjoy land price rises and, still more, to prevent price falls. Thus we see a bizarre spectacle: newspapers hail upward moves in the price of a place to live – the most basic of all amenities. The beneficiaries are more than land speculators. They are also enthusiastic supporters of efforts to rig the market. Particularly in the UK, they welcome the creation of artificial scarcity of land, via a ludicrously restrictive regime of planning controls. This is the most important way in which wealth is transferred from the unpropertied young to the propertied old. In his new book, David Willetts, the universities minister, emphasises the unfairness of the distribution of wealth across generations.* The rigged land market is the biggest single cause of this calamity.

Third and most important, the opportunity for speculation in land both fuels – and is fuelled by – the credit cycle, which has, yet again destabilised the economy. In a superb new jeremiad, the journalist Fred Harrison argues that this cycle – with a duration of 18 years – was predictable and, by him at least, predicted. In essence, he notes, buyers rent property from bankers, in return for a gamble on the upside. A host of agents gains fees from arranging, packaging and distributing the fruits of such highly speculative transactions. In the long upswing (the most recent one lasted 11 years in the UK), they all become rich together, as credit and debt explode upwards. Then, when the collapse comes, recent borrowers, the financial institutions and taxpayers suffer huge losses. This is no more than a giant pyramid selling scheme and one whose dire consequences we have seen again and again. It is ultimately, as Mr Harrison argues, a ruinous way of running our affairs.

I have long been persuaded that resource rents [the gains in the value of land] should be socialised, not accrue to individual owners. Yet, as Mr Harrison tellingly remarks, “as a community we socialise our privately earned incomes (wages and salaries), while our social income (from land) is privatised.” Yet, whatever one thinks of the justice of this arrangement, the practical consequences have become calamitous. Do we want to start yet another credit-fuelled property cycle as soon as the debris of the present one is cleared away, some years of misery hence?

If “a crisis is a terrible thing to waste”, here is an urgent case for action. Socialising the full rental value of land would destroy the financial system and the wealth of a large part of the public. That is obviously impossible. But socialising any gain from here on would be far less so. This would eliminate the fever of land speculation. It would also allow a shift in the burden of taxation. Perhaps as important, with the prospects of effortless increases in wealth removed, the UK might re-examine its planning laws. There is panic about the dire consequences of such a liberalisation of restrictions for the countryside. It is worth noting, however, how little is needed: an increase of just three miles in the radius of London would raise the capital’s surface area by 50 per cent. Would this really be the end of England’s green and pleasant land?

I do not expect any government to dare to wean the English from their ruinous trust in land speculation as the route to wealth. But I can hope. It is bad enough that the result has been expensive houses and inefficient taxes. But it is surely far worse that such insane speculative fevers have ended up destabilising the entire global economy. Even if few know it, it is time for a change.
 
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Roy L is deep thinker for sure but far too abrasive for many.
I'm a freakin' belt sander on lies and the lying liars who tell them.
LVT is quite simple. Land values were created by the economic activity of a community (economic fact) and hence belong to that community. What you earn you keep, no Income Tax, etc, and the state does not steal from you what is yours. The state reclaims what the community created (in the form of land values) and steals from no one.

Why people find difficulty understanding something so simple I don't know.
They don't find it difficult to understand. They understand very well that it proves their beliefs are false and evil, so they have to find a way not to understand it. This whole thread (not to mention the previous LVT thread) proves that conclusively.
 
They don't find it difficult to understand. They understand very well that it proves their beliefs are false and evil, so they have to find a way not to understand it. This whole thread (not to mention the previous LVT thread) proves that conclusively.
I'm not evil. I simply reject the premises behind the claim that I owe "the community" anything as irrational (they are). btw, I mean no disrespect because you are exactly correct about "intellectual property".
 
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I'm a freakin' belt sander on lies and the lying liars who tell them.

A giant slayer to be sure...

Windmill-Don-Quixote.png
 
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