The Real Lincoln on Slavery, Race, and The American System

[Travlyr]

Civil war was over slavery? The civil war was about money as far as I can tell.

I agree it was about money. Even the Southern secession documents point to the fact that ending slavery would ruin the commerce of the South. Plus, the Northern Industrialists profited from the war economy. Lincoln was not in it for the money. He believe that the U.S. Constitution was the document that finally freed the common white man who had been oppressed for centuries. He also believed that the Declaration of Independence applied to all men and women.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

I'm ashamed to see a majority of posters here taking sides when it is clear that neither player involved in the war (both north and south) cared about preserving liberty.

 

[familydog]

I did not intend to dodge your question. I assumed that you understood that, yes, DiLorenzo is lying about Lincoln being responsible for the deaths to which you refer. Lincoln had no choice because he was a man of principle. When he swore his oath on the Bible to "preserve, protect, and defend" the Constitution of the United States of America he actually meant it. Unlike the modern leaders of today.

This confuses me. You state DiLorenzo (and ostensibly Cisco) are lying, but then go on to state he had no choice. I'm not sure what you are conveying.

In any case, if they are indeed liars, I'd like to know. So can you provide me with a critique of their research which shows this mass murder?

 

[Travlyr]

I'm ashamed to see a majority of posters here taking sides when it is clear that neither player involved in the war (both north and south) cared about preserving liberty.

Really? You actually believe that? I find that Lincoln did want to preserve liberty. That is why I started this thread. Lincoln is so misunderstood that both sides misunderstand him. Some people think he was a "Father Abraham Saint" and others think he was a vicious tyrant. In fact he was a man who grew up in anarchy and rejected it. Lincoln understood the Constitution better than virtually anyone today except perhaps Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. He became a lawyer in order to promote liberty. Lincoln was as honest as the day is long. He was more honest than anyone one of us today. He understood that he was a mortal man who made mistakes. People like to pounce on those mistakes to prove him as evil. He was not evil. He was so principled that he could not even inject his personal opinion into law. Unfortunately, Lincoln was elected as president of the Union when the great question of slavery vs. the abolition movement was at its height. Lincoln was a product of his time.

 

[Travlyr]

This confuses me. You state DiLorenzo (and ostensibly Cisco) are lying, but then go on to state he had no choice. I'm not sure what you are conveying.

In any case, if they are indeed liars, I'd like to know. So can you provide me with a critique of their research which shows this mass murder?

No. I have no interest in reading any more bullshit. Defending the Confederacy means defending the thousands of year old institution of slavery. While I would not mind having my own slave to take care of me ... I believe it to be immoral and do not support it. Do your own research.

 

[itshappening]

Lincoln understand's the constitution except for the bit where "Making war on them [the States] is TREASON.

Yes, that's in the constitution Trav.

Lincoln was therefore guilty of treason.

 

[Travlyr]

Lincoln understand's the constitution except for the bit where "Making war on them [the States] is TREASON.

Yes, that's in the constitution Trav.

Lincoln was therefore guilty of treason.

The South fired on Union soldiers and Union property to start the war. Do you really think that there are "rules" of war? If the Union had not won the war, then negro chattel slavery would have been enshrined in Confederate Constitutional law. Is that what you call... "Liberty!"?

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

Really? You actually believe that? I find that Lincoln did want to preserve liberty. That is why I started this thread. Lincoln is so misunderstood that both sides misunderstand him. Some people think he was a "Father Abraham Saint" and others think he was a vicious tyrant. In fact he was a man who grew up in anarchy and rejected it. Lincoln understood the Constitution better than virtually anyone today except perhaps Dr. Edwin Vieira Jr. He became a lawyer in order to promote liberty. Lincoln was as honest as the day is long. He was more honest than anyone one of us today. He understood that he was a mortal man who made mistakes. People like to pounce on those mistakes to prove him as evil. He was not evil. He was so principled that he could not even inject his personal opinion into law. Unfortunately, Lincoln was elected as president of the Union when the great question of slavery vs. the abolition movement was at its height. Lincoln was a product of his time.

Yes I actually believe that. Committing to a war that resulted in over half a million deaths, the suspension of habeas corpus and freedom of the press, not to mention the installation of military conscription does not make Lincoln some misunderstood hero. It makes him a politician. Individuals like John Brown, Nat Turner, Lysander Spooner, and even William Lloyd Garrison to an extent should be the Civil War-era figures that should be praised amongst a group of people who claim to support individual sovereignty.

 

[Travlyr]

Yes I actually believe that. Committing to a war that resulted in over half a million deaths, the suspension of habeas corpus and freedom of the press, not to mention the installation of military conscription does not make Lincoln some misunderstood hero. It makes him a politician. Individuals like John Brown, Nat Turner, Lysander Spooner, and even William Lloyd Garrison to an extent should be the Civil War-era figures that should be praised amongst a group of people who claim to support individual sovereignty.

You do realize that John Brown actually personally killed a lot of innocent people don't you? You call him a hero. I call him a violent killer.

 

[familydog]

No. I have no interest in reading any more bullshit. Defending the Confederacy means defending the thousands of year old institution of slavery. While I would not mind having my own slave to take care of me ... I believe it to be immoral and do not support it. Do your own research.

What a convincing argument. You surely showed me.

 

[Travlyr]

What a convincing argument. You surely showed me.

That response was not for you. That response was for the readers of this thread. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

You do realize that John Brown actually personally killed a lot of innocent people don't you? You call him a hero. I call him a violent killer.

Innocent? They were slave hunters.

 

[truelies]

Innocent? They were slave hunters.

10 year old kids were slave hunters, eh.

 

[truelies]

Like Jefferson Davis?

Nah, Davis merely took part in exercising the Constitutional Right of a portion of the Several States to dissolve a bond which was no longer in their Interest.

 

[Aratus]

Some people claim that John Wilkes Booth had connections to Thomas William House. Are you familiar with any connection along those lines?

Wilson's advisor, Colonel House is as well known as William McKinley's campaign manager, Mark Hanna.

 

[NIU Students for Liberty]

10 year old kids were slave hunters, eh.

Which of his targets were 10? The youngest Doyle son was 16 and he was spared.

 

[RickyJ]

Robert E. Lee was a slave master,



How did Lincoln start the war? The South fired upon an unarmed ship during President Buchanan's term, they proudly fired the second shots at Fort Sumter, and they fired the third shot and killed one of Lincoln's close friends. The south wanted the war. Lincoln clearly did not want war.

That is my belief as well. None of us can know the exact truth because all we can know is what was written of that time, and we know that can be biased and outright lies.

 

[Fredom101]

I read the Real Lincoln a few years ago. It was not filled with opinions but rather actual quotes from Lincoln himself. DiLorenzo did a great job of letting the reader decide about Lincoln's character. But that actual quotes are pretty damning.

 

[Aratus]

i grandly admit to this when weighing in the balance his being an apt editor, upon knowing
how much worse the politically correct crowd was to get, i feel Monsieur DiLorenzo gleefully
indulged in one damnedly clever job of editting given that his very topical book is predestined
to make poor old Honest Abe out to be a worse and worse bigot over time! most unavoidedly!

 

[talkingpointes]

I read the Real Lincoln a few years ago. It was not filled with opinions but rather actual quotes from Lincoln himself. DiLorenzo did a great job of letting the reader decide about Lincoln's character. But that actual quotes are pretty damning.

Trav says just forget about it, he was a good president and if you can't figure it out you're stupid. The End. PS. Facts are like assholes everyone has one - Trav