The Real Lincoln on Slavery, Race, and The American System

That response was not for you. That response was for the readers of this thread. I'm not going to do your homework for you.

You haven't made any arguements. You have just copy and pasted opinions of others. You lack any credential what-so-ever and choose to just tell others if they can't figure it out then it's becuase of their supposed lack of intelligence.
 
this thread has been quite a debate, and like the other Lincoln threads, we actually
are 100% debating Abe Lincoln's + Bill McKinley's + Mitt Romney's political legacy to
us as we debate running Senator Rand Paul in either 2016 or 2020 or 2024 inside the
upcoming GOP primaries and caucuses. Even Strom Thurmond softened his stances
on Honest Abe during the last three decades of his long life, he was one of the major
segregationists of his generation. We can look at Ken Burns's film often and wonder.
 
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Trav's arguments are just nonsensical. Let's see his main thesis.

1) Trav argues that Lincoln was a very nice guy, a true constitutionalist, not a tyrant. If you EXCLUDE the period of time when he was president, you won't find him defending anything that was against the Constitution.

OK, nice. Isn't that true of almost any president? For instance, find a quote of George W. Bush in which he says civil liberties should be evaporated. I guess you problably won't find any such quote. So, if we EXCLUDE the precise moment in which Bush fought strongly against civil liberties, if we exclude his presidency, I guess we should have to conclude that Bush was a strict defender of the Constitution.

This is Trav's argument: if you exclude all violations of the Constitution that Lincoln promoted, than we must conclude that he was a true defender of the Constitution!

2) Lincoln couldn't negotiate with the confederates, because, ABOVE ALL, he was a constitutionalist and was securing the deeds of the Founding Fathers -- says Trav. On the other hand, when questioned about Lincoln's actions during the war, he said all he did is understandable -- although he says he doesn't agree with everything Lincoln did -- in light of the circumstances.

Agains, this argument is just LOGICAL BS. If Lincoln was a principled man, that put his oath to the Constitution ABOVE ANYTHING -- and Trav has said this explicitly --, than he could not violate the Constitution EVEN during wartime. On the other hand, if he could put his principles aside during war, WHY couldn't he do the SAME THING before, AVOIDING the war?

In other words, it's simply not true that Lincoln was forced to don't negotiate because he was all about principles. The war proves this is false. On the other hand, it's clear that, if this was the case, then he would have put his principles aside to commit evil, but wouldn't do the same to avoid the greatest war of all time until then!

3) Anytime Trav reads an objection to which he has no answer, he comes with this response: "well, you must love slavery".

This is just ad hominem. No, Trav, if you don't support Lincoln's dictatorship, it doesn't mean you are for slavery. A lot of people in America seems blind to this, but slavery ended all over the world without war. In my country, Brazil, for instance, we had a process of ending slavery since 1850 until it finally was abolished peacefully in 1888. And, note this, slavery was an institution more important in Brazil than in America. First, there were many more slaves here than there -- the proportion of blacks in Brazilian population in much greater than in America. Second, almost all economic activities in Brazil used slaves. And, third, contrary to what happens in US, here in Brazil we really don't have a tradition of upholding liberty.

To state it in another way, if we managed to abolish slavery peacefully here in Brazil, in a much worse circumstance, there's no reason at all to think that slavery would be prolonged for much longer. And, as a result, we don't have much of an interracial problem here in Brazil. In fact, black racism is growing right now, because Brazilian blacks are trying to copy America's way of fighting racism.
 
was John Hancock a more able president than George Washington??? This is a basic question!!!
Abe Lincoln did not go beyond the scope of the authority George Washington asked for in 1789.
Jefferson Davis's Constitution tends to mirror our own. Travlyr was not advocating anarchism,
and was bringing into this John Locke's social contract theory when talking Civil War politics. The
South ended up with a president who was more autocratic than John Hancock. Same applies to
the North. GOTO the Federalist Papers and the stances of the Antifederalists. These core issues!
 
Emerick... curiously enough, in 1864 over that long bloody summer, we see that Abe Lincoln almost ended up negotiating a seperate peace
with Jefferson Davis's government and then decided to dump a perfectly respectable and honest guy named Hannibal Hamlin from Maine in
favor of a Tennessee tailor, only to see the ticket win him an election! The fall of Atlanta in addition to the GOP win in 1864 on an Unionist
platform changed history. Brazil and the U.K clearly went about abolishing slavery much better than we did. Things were not cut and dried.
An insider's glimpse into the inner workings of the Civil War White House might have brought home to Andrew Johnson how close the South
was to a total political legitimacy & success. The quarrels of Reconstruction are the fizzures inside Lincoln's high powered cabinet writ large.
 
A legal occupation at the time. Brown & his minions were terrorists.

So just because a government said it was legal to track and hunt down human beings, that means it was justified? Should abolitionists have been punished for attempting to nullify fugitive slave laws?
 
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nearly all the better Quakers and Abolitionists in the 1850s thought that very "for instance" legitimized nullification
ever so much more than John C. Calhoun ever had in his long lifetime! they wanted to nullify the fugitive slave laws.
 
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