The Real Lincoln on Slavery, Race, and The American System

[Travlyr]

hmmmmm, if one is simply concerned about the well being of the lower half Soutern slaves were at least as well off as Nortern industrial wage-slaves. Heck the plantation hands even had longer life expectancies than did New England industrial labourers.

Bottomline Licoln waged war against the Sovereign States for exercising their Rights. That makes him a Traitor. Its only too bad that Booth ended up doing personally that which should have been done Publically and with a rope. Lincoln being a cur unworthy of a dignified death.

So you do believe that the black slave was better off being enslaved than being free. I'm guessing you are not black. Edmund Ruffin thought that too until his slaves were freed. Then he learned that they wanted to live a free life, just like the white man, so they refused to work for him. He killed himself in disgrace.

 

[truelies]

...............................................
So you agree with Robert E. Lee? A negro enslaved in America is better off than being free in Africa.

Yes, I do. However-

The Negro gains by being brought into the presence of White Civilisation even as a bondsman. White Civilisation as a whole however pays a high price for the cheap labour enjoyed by the few. The People of the North were Fools to not let the South go its own way and hence be heir to the entire burden of the Negro Problem. Had the North displayed the least wit the South would have went peacefully and slavery would have ended by around 1890 and the Negro would have been removed to Liberia/Haiti/Central America perhaps with those areas as Confederate colonies as the Cofederate States industrialised.

 

[truelies]

So you do believe that the black slave was better off being enslaved than being free.......................

Negro life NOT in the presence of a White majority looks like Haiti or Liberia. That is Reality. That said I have no wish to be burdened by providing for the welfare of these people.

 

[itshappening]

Ask the people of Zimbabwe if they prefer white rule under Ian Smith or the rule of Robert Mugabe. I'm sure the vast majority would take Smith's white minority government back.

 

[demolama]

hmmmmm, if one is simply concerned about the well being of the lower half Soutern slaves were at least as well off as Nortern industrial wage-slaves. Heck the plantation hands even had longer life expectancies than did New England industrial labourers.

Okay, now this myth has got to stop. Slaves were not well off being slaves compared to Irish in the North.

As a historian myself I can appreciate what Travlyr is trying to do. The fact remains Lincoln's legacy is a wartime president who did some unthinkable acts against people he considered his own people, which often gets overlooked in favor of the myth of Father Abraham "savoir of the black race."

Lincoln viewed the Constitution and the Union very differently. Lincoln believed the union was a consolidated union starting in 1774 with the Articles of Association, even though no colony was forced to obey the Congress's edicts. The Articles of Confederation put down in plain English that the Union was perpetual, and Lincoln saw the Constitution as a continuation of the Articles desire "to make a perfect union" more perfect.

Lincoln talking to Confederate envoys would have only legitimized the Confederacy. He was under no obligation to talk to them.

Now, South Carolina firing on reinforcement ships as an act of aggression? The South believed all federal territory given to them by the state should be return to South Carolina. Reinforcing with supplies and troops is an act of aggression to their eyes.

You have to look at the Civil War from both sides. Neither side saw the situation the same way, and they acted on impulse based upon those notions.

 

[Ivash]

As for For Sumter, the leader of the Confederates there wanted a fight- even if his political leaders did not, if I recall correctly. The American Civil War never interested me as much as other conflicts in the period (the concurrent Taiping Rebellion in particular), though.

 

[LibertyEagle]

So, Travlyr, you think that it was ok for Lincoln to stomp all over the Constitution to war against and flat out murder other Americans to further his own dictatorial agenda? Is that it?

The North had slaves too, Travlyr. Did that fact escape you? I'm sure some people thought they were fighting to free the slaves, but that was not the prime reason for the war.

 

[Travlyr]

So, Travlyr, you think that it was ok for Lincoln to stomp all over the Constitution to war against and flat out murder other Americans to further his own dictatorial agenda? Is that it?

Did you read the OP? Second sentence, "I do not agree with everything Lincoln did by any means, especially his actions during the war,"

So, LibertyEagle, you think that it was ok for Davis to war against the Union and flat out murder other Americans to further his own dictatorial agenda? Suspend habeas corpus, institute martial law, allow unthinkable treatment of prisoners at POW Camp Sumter, Andersonville? In order to nationalize and expand African enslavement?

The North had slaves too, Travlyr. Did that fact escape you?

No that does not escape me. The Union allowed for States to choose for themselves whether to be a free state or a slave state.

I'm sure some people thought they were fighting to free the slaves, but that was not the prime reason for the war.

The South was fighting the war to nationalize slavery. The North was fighting the war to preserve the Union.

 

[BAllen]

Negro life NOT in the presence of a White majority looks like Haiti or Liberia. That is Reality. That said I have no wish to be burdened by providing for the welfare of these people.

That is truth. Include Detroit or D.C. in that, as well. Simple facts.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

The South was fighting the war to nationalize slavery. The North was fighting the war to preserve the Union.

LOLZ. One of my favorite Orwellian State Historian/Lincoln Cult memes.

 

[jmdrake]

I pray that in 2013 we quit re-fighting the civil war on these boards. It's got be like the most unproductive thing we do. Not wasting my time reading this thread. Each side is convinced they're right and the other side "just doesn't know history". Carry on.

 

[itshappening]

I have to admit Trav is a superb and persistent troll. I admire his efforts since I have taken the bait on several occasions but all he seems to do is paste the constitutions of the time over and over. I'm tired of it too!

 

[Travlyr]

I pray that in 2013 we quit re-fighting the civil war on these boards. It's got be like the most unproductive thing we do. Not wasting my time reading this thread. Each side is convinced their right and the other side "just doesn't know history". Carry on.

It is not unproductive. The most popular theme on this board is Federalist vs. Anti-Federalist. The fact that there is not all that much difference between the Federalists and Anti-Federalists goes completely over almost everybody's head. That argument was for the founders. Our 21st century enemy is the "Babylonian System" ... "The Federal Reserve System" of counterfeit money and debasement of currency.

Since we have the truth machine at our fingertips, it is time to share the truth.

My point is that Lincoln was no more of an evil person than Davis. Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union as designed by the founders, and Davis wanted to preserve the thousands of years old institution of slavery.

 

[truelies]

...............Lincoln wanted to preserve the Union as designed by the founders, .................

ah, I see. He HAD TO DESTROY the Constitution to 'save' it , eh.

 

[Travlyr]

ah, I see. He HAD TO DESTROY the Constitution to 'save' it , eh.

Like Jefferson Davis?

 

[Travlyr]

It does not require a whole lot of intelligence to understand why Jefferson Davis and Abraham Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and instituted martial law in times of civil war. You people who claim that it should not have been done in times of war are sounding pretty stupid on the facts of life. It would be better if you would learn history before you promote your ignorance. Is that the intelligence level of the liberty movement? Are you people really too dumb to understand why they had to do what they had to do to win the war?

 

[itshappening]

The difference is Jefferson Davis isn't worshipped like our stupid "historians" worship Lincoln and make factually wrong movies about him and that is the reason Lincoln's appalling behavior is highlighted: to counter the mass of 'Father Abraham' propaganda.

 

[Travlyr]

The difference is Jefferson Davis isn't worshipped like our stupid "historians" worship Lincoln and make factually wrong movies about him and that is the reason Lincoln's appalling behavior is highlighted: to counter the mass of 'Father Abraham' propaganda.

Of course Jefferson Davis is not worshipped. He was the president of a want-a-be nation to nationalize and perpetuate slavery. In 1860, it made perfect sense to a lot of people. In 2012, people should be intelligent enough to understand that the institution of slavery is not liberty oriented.

The problem is the ignorance of people. Instead of being able to read and understand words people today fight over concepts they can not comprehend. A study of Lincoln proves that he grew up in virtual anarchy. Lincoln worked his entire life for liberty and he was killed before he was able to finish his mission of liberty.

The South was fighting the war to nationalize slavery. The North was fighting the war to preserve the Union.

LOLZ. One of my favorite Orwellian State Historian/Lincoln Cult memes.

There is nothing "Orwellian State Historian/Lincoln Cult" like about it. People today are simply too dumbed down to be able to read and understand. It does not take a whole lot of intelligence to understand that the South was fighting to defend their Constitution and the North was fighting to defend theirs. The Confederate Constitution nationalized slavery and the U.S. Constitution defended the right of the States to determine the slavery issue.

 

[itshappening]

Lincoln did not work for liberty, he worked for tyranny. For example he got Congressman Vallandigham of Ohio deported, he ordered the Chief Justice to be arrested, he imprisoned thousands of opponents, shut down opposition newspapers etc etc, but you seem blind to this.

What you also don't understand is that the states seceeded peacefully and that at the time it was widely understood to be a voluntary Union and even Linoln himself said in 1848 that people have the right to institute a new government if they so wish and Jefferson also said separation was acceptable.

Lincoln and the North wanted to plunder the South through high tariffs at their ports.

 

[Travlyr]

Lincoln did not work for liberty, he worked for tyranny. For example he got Congressman Vallandigham of Ohio deported, he ordered the Chief Justice to be arrested, he imprisoned thousands of opponents, shut down opposition newspapers etc etc, but you seem blind to this.

What you also don't understand is that the states seceeded peacefully and that at the time it was widely understood to be a voluntary Union and even Linoln himself said in 1848 that people have the right to institute a new government if they so wish and Jefferson also said separation was acceptable.

Lincoln and the North wanted to plunder the South through high tariffs at their ports.

Where, prior to the Confederacy firing upon Fort Sumter, is it written or documented that Lincoln intended to plunder the South?
What violation of the Constitution did Lincoln commit prior to the Confederacy firing upon Fort Sumter?

If the Southern Confederacy seceded because of the tariff issue, then why didn't they even mention it in their secession statements?
If the Confederates were so big on voluntary union and the right to secede, then why does the Confederate Constitution not allow secession?