The Pledge of Allegiance

Snipped for space.

I have family that has fought for the flag. A couple maimed, one dead, and one with demons he can't come to terms with. I love this country. It very well could be a lot worse. The problem is that we have been monetarily hijacked. The wars aren't for defense. Our actions are usually despicable. That is not what the flag stands for to me. I am as proud to be an American. (as I can be, lately) The shit that the tptb do is unexcusable. I'll pledge to the flag. In my mind I'm pledging to the Constitution, the Rule of Law, the things America is supposed to stand for. I am not disillusioned by a false sense of our actions always being justified or being in the interest of the people. Monopolies and schemes of various super-rich men does not end my love for what this country was founded on.

No, your family (and mine) fought for the government that flag represents. No one alive has fought for the country in the literal (or what most here consider moral) sense. You are perfectly free to imagine that flag represents the constitution, but the fact is it doesn't. It's very much post-republic in nature. The flags I posted above are as close to symbols of the Constitution as it gets.

ETA: It's incorrect to say "our" actions were wrong-they were wrong actions, but wrong actions of the regime and its cronies and its hired killers (soldiers)-not "us".
 
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The fact that the pledge was written by a nationalism espousing socialist pretty much sums up the reasoning of my disdain for it. American exceptionalism at is best.
 
No, your family (and mine) fought for the government that flag represents. No one alive has fought for the country in the literal (or what most here consider moral) sense. You are perfectly free to imagine that flag represents the constitution, but the fact is it doesn't. It's very much post-republic in nature. The flags I posted above are as close to symbols of the Constitution as it gets.
I understand this. People are played like fiddles. Red scares and 'communism taking over the world' etc. That is not my point. They fought for what they thought they believe in. Or rather, what they thought the country stood for and what was supposedly at risk. Propaganda does numbers on a person's brain. I have family that is holier than the priests after what they did and saw. My main point is I do pledge allegiance to the republic, for which it stood. If a foreign army decided to roll up on one of our shores, we, as Americans, would defend our land.

The schemes and scams that are perpetrated mainly through propaganda and fear are besides the point. (though I do see the point) When I pledge allegiance, I am not pledging allegiance to the crony corporate banksters, the subsidized politicians and the evil they commit. I am pledging allegiance to the defense of this nation in the strictest sense of the word, defense. I know I am not alone in that, and would expect it to be a common reaction.

ETA: It's incorrect to say "our" actions were wrong-they were wrong actions, but wrong actions of the regime and its cronies-not "us".
True, true. I have been told this once or twice here. I use 'our' liberally. We (a good portion of Americans) damn sure aren't responsible for what is waged in our name. I get as annoyed as you when someone claims otherwise. It's hard to convey tone through text.
 
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933

We are at the same place, IMO, the structure for the horror is all in place.

All it needs is somebody to set it off.

Maybe the next "unitary executive".

Yeah, I know.

I am patriotic because of what the country is supposed to stand for. I do pledge allegiance, which in my mind means when someone rolls up on these shores, I will be one of the first to pick up a rifle for defense. They have sullied the country's name. (and flag) It annoys me to no end. The unpatriotic are the ones who blindly follow and wish to bomb countries for reasons not pertaining to an imminent threat. (and I mean imminent, not that lawyer speak bullshit Obama and Holder can twist or contrive) It's a shame, really.

I suppose my mind must do some impressive gymnastics but I have no problem pledging allegiance. It is to the Constitution and to what the Flag stood for.

Yeah, this is pretty much the same gymnastics I use.
The fact that the pledge was written by a nationalism espousing socialist pretty much sums up the reasoning of my disdain for it. American exceptionalism at is best.

And yeah, that doesn't help.
 
I don't mind saying the pledge, I don't really care where it came from or who wrote it, it's now evolved into simply being proud of our country. If you don't want to say it, I don't think you should or should have to. Whatever floats your boat.
 
On principle, I agree with you...



I'm almost done. Senior this year. Graduating this year. Then college.

In my Senior year, I busted myself out and have been on the lam ever since. Doing pretty well for a 23 year old. No debt. 2 cars. Got a job I love. After I got out in 2008 I swiftly decided college was a stupid idea. Way too much money for such little pay. Everyone I currently work with is college educated and I seem to be one of the few who actually knows what they are doing. Leaving School was the best thing I ever did for myself. Check out http://schoolsucksproject.com/ they have awesome material for those currently serving time.
 
What did you do, BTW, and what were the results?

Nothing spectacular.

What I did... ignored stupid requests, probably from 2nd grade on, refused homework on the basis that I already understood the material. I wasn't disrespectful toward teachers, but I wasn't willing to constantly jump through hoops, either.

Results... detention, in school suspension, failing grades while acing tests, eventually paying for college myself when there would have been other people willing to foot that bill otherwise.
 
Around 3rd or 4th grade, I stopped including "under God" when reciting the pledge. Yeah, I was a young atheist.
In 5th or 6th grade, I think 6th, but I can't be sure because I remember the moment it dawned on me, but I wasn't looking at the teacher and I'm having trouble remembering the moments around it. I looked over and another child wasn't saying the pledge. He was standing, but not reciting anything. This is the first time I realized that NOT saying any of it was an option. Come to find out he was Jewish and that had something to do with why he didn't say it. After that, I just stopped. Sometimes I stood, sometimes not. Depended on how crowded the room was, and how awkward I thought it was going to be. Only had to deal with that until the end of 8th grade. They didn't announce the pledge in our high school.
No one ever made a fuss or said two words to me about not going along on the rare occasion that it was said at some event.

This was in a small, conservative town of about 2,000 people.
 
I bet a solid argument could be made that: (I) it is unconstitutional for a governmental instrument to compel one to enter into a contractual arrangement, (II) it is unlawful to coerce one that is below the age of majority to make an oath of allegiance or 'pledge', (III) it is outside of the intent of the Legslature to Pledge Allegiance to a United States Flag intended only for use by the President of the United States or within locales and by governmental personnel under the President's direct authority or command (i.e., a gold fringed U.S. Flag with a military finial atop the flag pole, e.g., eagle or spear, and hanging tassels), (IV) that the repetition of Pledging Allegiance provides no educational value and is thereby not within the lawful scope of administrative rule-making or student mandates of any public school system, and (V) one is entitled, as a matter of right, to a religious exemption in that pledging to a flag under any name is a form of idolary.
 
I can't remember the last time I recited the pledge. I very much love America and the opportunities and comfort that living here has afforded me, but I'm loyal to my family, my friends, and my humanity. Not a flag. Not a collection of politicians and bureaucrats.


"The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion." Neither flags nor arbitrary boundaries on maps enter into the equation.
 
I love this country. It very well could be a lot worse.


I wish more people around here realized how true that statement is. As a nation we're losing our philosophical moorings. We've been shedding economic liberties and privacy. We've been waging wars abroad and at home. We do more damage to ourselves than any nation or group of nations could ever hope to do to us. And in spite of it all, we've maintained a level of wealth -not just debt, but real wealth creating by millions of educated, hard-working Americans- liberty, and safety that would have been completely unimaginable to nearly every human that has EVER lived! That means something! That's amazing and important.
 
If I had it to do over again, I'd sit with my mouth shut during all the pledges.

I've been told that my old school now makes them recite the Texas pledge after the US pledge. So much statism.
 
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the 'pledge' the star spangled banner, the red white and blue, all this 'patriotic' rah rah stuff, is all a brain washing tactic to keep all 'americans' in line.

Watched 'Why We Fight' this morning. I suggest you watch this.

That said, If we were truly under a REAL threat from outside forces hell bent on killing me and family and friends...i will take up arms. I don't need any rah rah crap to defend myself or country.

I could never understand why this so-called love it or leave it mentality is so in-grained in society.
 
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Well, Ron is constitutionally correct that the states can regulate, or even ban, drugs. And I think using FedGov to stop them from doing so is a cure that's worse than the disease. Rothbard is at least usually correct that centralization = bad even if it looks good from a distance.

BTW I don't think you're a radical authoritarian at all. In fact, I've been silently wondering to myself why you put "Conservative" in your name at all, since you're definitely a libertarian, albeit more of a classical liberal than a Rothbardian ancap.



I've heard some people call the mainline Tea Party folks "Anarchists." I laughed to myself. Even Ron Paul isn't even nearly an anarchist, although he's certainly closer to that than anyone else. I think he's really a minarchist but frames his arguments in constitutional rhetoric since that is in fact the document that he swore to uphold.

As for marijuana, I've gotten weird looks for saying I wanted to legalize it but insisting that it should not be taxed. Of course, if I were in any position of power I'd vote for a "Legalize and tax" bill in a state where marijuana was illegal, its still a start.



In theory, that's right. In practice, it just isn't. Maybe under President Traditional Conservative, this would be the case, and I can understand that, but the reality is, it just isn't. The reality is, however, we could probably persuade people that this policy is a good idea more easily than convincing them tat DWI should just be legalized is a good idea.



Yep. Where's their warrant? That, I have to ask, and will probably disagree with TC.



There's no debate on drugs other than marijuana either. Look, I do have my priorities and drunk driving really isn't on that list either way but just because something isn't up for debate doesn't mean we shouldn't support it anyway. I'm willing to let this one go, but I'm not willing to let drug legalization, absolute gun legislation (Meaning anything up to a missile launcher, RPG, tank, anything that can be pinpointed) or noninterventionist foreign policy go without a fight, even if those issues are not up for debate currently.

I didn't quote the comments, but I can't agree with a prohibition on minors drinking alcohol, especially since they do it all the time in Europe. I could support an absolute ban on teens using hard drugs like heroin, and I can support prohibiting teens from PURCHASING alcohol. I don't really think the NAP is a reasonable policy to apply to kids. But if a parent wants to let their kid drink a glass of wine with dinner or whatever, I think that's a right that the parent should have.

Holy crap. You sure are very knowledgeable and have a ton of worldly experiences for being 18. Also, using terms like "FedGov" by your 25th post?

You're a genius. Have you thought about running for office?
 
Or am I missing something...

.....

In a nut shell...

Understanding Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy is the key to understanding why the pledge was written in the first place.

Francis Bellamy: Author of the Pledge(1892), self proclaimed socialist, and first cousin to Edward Bellamy.

Edward Bellamy: Author of "Looking Backwards: 2000 to 1887", an international best selling socialist utopian novel that inspired over 160 "national socialist" clubs all across America.

Why would a socialist want/need a National pledge?
Socialism requires a strong centralized top-down government in order to implement their ideology effectively. Our Pledge is/was simply a tool of the socialists.


Note1: Hitler was a fan of both Edward and Francis --->thus the NAZI salute.

Note2: "Under God" was not added until 1952.

edit/

TMike
 
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In a nut shell...

Understanding Francis Bellamy and Edward Bellamy is the key to understanding why the pledge was written in the first place.

Francis Bellamy: Author of the Pledge(1892), self proclaimed socialist, and first cousin to Edward Bellamy.

Edward Bellamy: Author of "Looking Backwards: 2000 to 1887", an international best selling socialist utopian novel that inspired over 160 "national socialist" clubs all across America.

Why would a socialist want/need a National pledge?
Socialism requires a strong centralized top-down government in order to implement their ideology effectively. Our Pledge is/was simply a tool of the socialists.


Note1: Hitler was a fan of both Edward and Francis --->thus the NAZI salute.

Note2: "Under God" was not added until 1952.

edit/

TMike
+rep
 
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