The myth of the "godless" U.S. Constitution

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Source: http://fauxcapitalist.com/2013/12/31/the-myth-of-the-godless-u-s-constitution/
See source for reference links.

I fell for the myth of the “godless” U.S. Constitution until 2012.

Here are the reasons the United States Constitution is not “godless”, with thanks to Pastor David Whitney of the Institute on the Constitution for bringing up some of these points up during a presentation he made on Radio Liberty with Dr. Stan Monteith:

Starting with the preamble to the Constitution:

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.“​

Where do “Blessings” come from, if not from God?

And the Declaration of Independence makes it clear that the “Creator” is the author of “Liberty”, as we see from its text:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.“​

Then, there are the references in the Constitution to oaths, such as this one:

“The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation.“​

The distinguishing feature between an Oath and Affirmation is that an oath is sworn to God, while an affirmation is only solemnly stated.

We see this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary’s primary definition for oath:

1a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says​


and with all definitions of affirmation, there is no mention of God:

1a : the act of affirming
b : something affirmed : a positive assertion
2 : a solemn declaration made under the penalties of perjury by a person who conscientiously declines taking an oath​


The second definition shows that one makes an affirmation by conscientiously declining to take an oath, meaning that one doesn’t believe in God, or doesn’t feel that it is necessary to do so, while still believing in God.

Then, for the requirement of the President upon taking office:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”​


Then, for the oath or affirmation required of Senators and Representatives:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.​


The “no religious Test” requirement is internally supported in the Constitution by the ability to either swear an oath or make an affirmation, and its purpose was to prevent religious divisions among the many Christian denominations at the time, and later, among different religions.

The most cited reference made by those advocating a “godless” Constitution refer to the First Amendment, which states, in part:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;​


This is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Constitution. It only limits Congress from establishing any official national religion, and from prohibiting the free exercise of religion anywhere in the United States. It does nothing to prevent the States from doing so, within their respective jurisdictions. This is evidenced by the states of Massachusetts and Connecticut having official state religions after the U.S. Constitution was adopted.

And since the Executive can only execute laws passed by Congress, if Congress can pass no laws establishing an official religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise of religion, the Executive also cannot implement any regulations doing the same.

Then, since the judicial branch can only interpret laws passed by Congress, they are also prevented from doing the same.

Notice that there is no “wall of separation between Church and State” mentioned here, or anywhere else in the Constitution. In fact, that reference is from a 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, which referred to a one-way wall of separation, with the newly constituted federal government unable to interfere with religious worship in any way.

Then, in the Fourth Amendment, we see a reference to an “Oath”.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.​


Long before 2012, I was aware of the mention of “the Year of our Lord” in the Constitution, and accepted the notion that it was just used as a convention at the time.

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth.​


However, if it connoted nothing religious, then why did Thomas Jefferson’s aforementioned 1802 letter only show him signing the date and year, and mentioning nothing about “the Year of our Lord”?

Finally, the mention of most of the rights in the Bill of Rights are references to natural rights, and where do those natural rights come from? The signers of the Declaration of Independence made it clear that they are from the “Creator”, who is also “Nature’s God”.

For more on the godly nature of the U.S. Constitution and U.S. form of government, see my interview with Pastor David Whitney here.
 
Wow. Talk about wringing the dickens out of words to make them say what you want them to, Batman! :eek: You can make a better case for religious inspiration WRT the Declaration of Independence than the Constitution. The latter is secular, as far as I can see. There have been a number of secularist Natural Lawyers-Murray N Rothbard among them. The USC gives a lot more power to civil authorities than the religions of most of the lay people of the founding generation believed in.
 
Wow. Talk about wringing the dickens out of words to make them say what you want them to, Batman! :eek: You can make a better case for religious inspiration WRT the Declaration of Independence than the Constitution. The latter is secular, as far as I can see. There have been a number of secularist Natural Lawyers-Murray N Rothbard among them. The USC gives a lot more power to civil authorities than the religions of most of the lay people of the founding generation believed in.

I think you really need to define "Secular" before you can say. Was the constitution secular in that it didn't condone a particular God or religion? Yeah. Was it "secular" in that it rejected all religious influence? No. Does it matter? Not really. Always check the constitution against the Bible. If they conflict, go with God's Word over the words of men, however noble. That said, they don't necessarily contradict since the constitution does not say government MUST take any powers.
 
Source: http://fauxcapitalist.com/2013/12/31/the-myth-of-the-godless-u-s-constitution/
See source for reference links.

I fell for the myth of the “godless” U.S. Constitution until 2012.

Here are the reasons the United States Constitution is not “godless”, with thanks to Pastor David Whitney of the Institute on the Constitution for bringing up some of these points up during a presentation he made on Radio Liberty with Dr. Stan Monteith:

Starting with the preamble to the Constitution:

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.“​

Where do “Blessings” come from, if not from God?

And the Declaration of Independence makes it clear that the “Creator” is the author of “Liberty”, as we see from its text:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.“​

Then, there are the references in the Constitution to oaths, such as this one:

“The Senate shall have the sole Power to try all Impeachments. When sitting for that Purpose, they shall be on Oath or Affirmation.“​

The distinguishing feature between an Oath and Affirmation is that an oath is sworn to God, while an affirmation is only solemnly stated.

We see this from the Merriam-Webster dictionary’s primary definition for oath:

1a (1) : a solemn usually formal calling upon God or a god to witness to the truth of what one says or to witness that one sincerely intends to do what one says​


and with all definitions of affirmation, there is no mention of God:

1a : the act of affirming
b : something affirmed : a positive assertion
2 : a solemn declaration made under the penalties of perjury by a person who conscientiously declines taking an oath​


The second definition shows that one makes an affirmation by conscientiously declining to take an oath, meaning that one doesn’t believe in God, or doesn’t feel that it is necessary to do so, while still believing in God.

Then, for the requirement of the President upon taking office:

Before he enter on the Execution of his Office, he shall take the following Oath or Affirmation:

“I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.”​


Then, for the oath or affirmation required of Senators and Representatives:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.​


The “no religious Test” requirement is internally supported in the Constitution by the ability to either swear an oath or make an affirmation, and its purpose was to prevent religious divisions among the many Christian denominations at the time, and later, among different religions.

The most cited reference made by those advocating a “godless” Constitution refer to the First Amendment, which states, in part:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;​


This is one of the most misunderstood parts of the Constitution. It only limits Congress from establishing any official national religion, and from prohibiting the free exercise of religion anywhere in the United States. It does nothing to prevent the States from doing so, within their respective jurisdictions. This is evidenced by the states of Massachusetts and Connecticut having official state religions after the U.S. Constitution was adopted.

And since the Executive can only execute laws passed by Congress, if Congress can pass no laws establishing an official religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise of religion, the Executive also cannot implement any regulations doing the same.

Then, since the judicial branch can only interpret laws passed by Congress, they are also prevented from doing the same.

Notice that there is no “wall of separation between Church and State” mentioned here, or anywhere else in the Constitution. In fact, that reference is from a 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, which referred to a one-way wall of separation, with the newly constituted federal government unable to interfere with religious worship in any way.

Then, in the Fourth Amendment, we see a reference to an “Oath”.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.​


Long before 2012, I was aware of the mention of “the Year of our Lord” in the Constitution, and accepted the notion that it was just used as a convention at the time.

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth.​


However, if it connoted nothing religious, then why did Thomas Jefferson’s aforementioned 1802 letter only show him signing the date and year, and mentioning nothing about “the Year of our Lord”?

Finally, the mention of most of the rights in the Bill of Rights are references to natural rights, and where do those natural rights come from? The signers of the Declaration of Independence made it clear that they are from the “Creator”, who is also “Nature’s God”.

For more on the godly nature of the U.S. Constitution and U.S. form of government, see my interview with Pastor David Whitney here.

Great post. + rep
 
I think you really need to define "Secular" before you can say. Was the constitution secular in that it didn't condone a particular God or religion? Yeah. Was it "secular" in that it rejected all religious influence? No. Does it matter? Not really. Always check the constitution against the Bible. If they conflict, go with God's Word over the words of men, however noble. That said, they don't necessarily contradict since the constitution does not say government MUST take any powers.
Well, it's impossible to avoid religious influence. Religiosity is in man's nature. Even atheists believe certain things "religiously". (recall the "atheist church" that was in the news lately?)
Anyway, when I say "secular" I mean it in the traditional sense: [h=2]sec·u·lar[/h] [sek-yuh-ler] Show IPAadjective1.of or pertaining to worldly things or to things that are not regarded as religious, spiritual, or sacred;temporal: secular interests.

2.not pertaining to or connected with religion (opposed to sacred ): secular music.






It would be inaccurate to say the USCon is an Enlightenment era or classical liberal statement. But, from the text and from the Federalist, it seems the USCon aims to be more liberal secular than religious in order to appeal to the numerous religious factions that had to be persuaded. Loaded language would've doubtless offended some denomination or another. (recall Jefferson's famous letter to the Danbury Baptists which contains the famous phrase "separation of Church and State"-one of the most misunderstood and abused phrases/slogans in US history)
 
I don't really care if it's "godless" or "godful". I'm not a constitution worshiper, and I don't care what a few men 200 years ago thought. I want to live my life how I see fit. I don't need a constitution or a bible to tell me how to live.
 
Exactly... God is the ultimate libertarian... you have the free will to choose how you live your life or who you will live your life with.... That's the great thing about it... it's not about persuading people to believe what you believe, but sharing a positive experience with those whom believe....
 
Wow. Talk about wringing the dickens out of words to make them say what you want them to, Batman! :eek: You can make a better case for religious inspiration WRT the Declaration of Independence than the Constitution. The latter is secular, as far as I can see. There have been a number of secularist Natural Lawyers-Murray N Rothbard among them. The USC gives a lot more power to civil authorities than the religions of most of the lay people of the founding generation believed in.
LOL. There you go again.

The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders' political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal government's hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.

The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nation's history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the people's allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nation's Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war. -- Ron Paul

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul148.html
 
What does that mean?

Here's the quote you're talking about:
“Religious institutions that use government power in support of themselves and force their views on persons of other faiths, or of no faith, undermine all our civil rights. Moreover, state support of an established religion tends to make the clergy unresponsive to their own people, and leads to corruption within religion itself. Erecting the 'wall of separation between church and state,' therefore, is absolutely essential in a free society.” -Thomas Jefferson

Where did you get that quote? Here's the one I found:
To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed)
Th Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.
http://www.constitution.org/tj/sep_church_state.htm

Yours is totally different. And I notice that it has quote marks in it around "wall of separation between church and state." It looks to me like those are the only words quoted from Jefferson, and the rest of your quote is someone else's conclusions that they draw from that. In the original context, I think FauxCapitalist was right. Jefferson used that line in condemning state interference in the church, not condemning church interference in the state.
 
Always check the constitution against the Bible. If they conflict, go with God's Word over the words of men, however noble.

I sincerely doubt that we should give preference to some of the punishments prescribed by Leviticus and Deuteronomy (e.g., stoning someone to death for being a rebellious son or for having engaged in premarital sex) over the 8th Amendment.
 
ahahahaha
ahahahaahahaha
ahahahahahahahaha

Blessings don't necessarily refer to any deity's favour

The text says "THEIR Creator", which doesn't favour any deity, nor really anything, as many of your Founding Fathers were believers in "natural" law. Natural being of course, inherent to nature and therefore originating at whatever beginning one believes in.

The use of "oath" in the language of the Constitution has little relevance as well. Its presence in there is merely accepting of one's beliefs, not favouring them over any other.

Furthermore, " Year of our lord" isn't meaningful, considering that even everyone today still uses the same system. A.D. Is Latin for "Year of the Lord", designating the supposed time after the birth of Christ.

I don't really see where you're going with this, as it's really no secret that your Founding Fathers were pretty tolerant of other religions. Treaty of Tripoli ring any bells?
 
Ask a Pastor to find God in the Constitution and they will.

Ask an Atheist to find that God doesnt exist in a specific context in the Constitution and they wont.

Subjective conclusions are Subjective and will always remain Subjective, thus, this debate can not be settled.

One thing that is regardless that I dont believe is that the Founding Fathers wanted the people of this country to be divided by any means. Even then, there were differences of opinion on religion and god, and they were fully aware of this when they wrote the Constitution. They wrote it as a means of Unifying the People in a means that was respectful to the Individual. They did not write it, at least in terms of Religious Observations, as a means for one Religion to be given preference over another Religion. Each founder had their own individual Religious beliefs. But they did not try to place preference on their own Religions into the Consitution. They tried to protect the Individuals Right to have their own Religious beliefs, yet, unify those Individuals on what their Religions taught. The Value of Human Life. The Value of Freedom. The Value of Rights.

However an Individual chooses to interpret the Constitution, it needs to be interpreted as a flawed document. Thus, it becomes the responsibility of the observer to hold themselves to a Higher Standard in order to correct any possible shortcomings of the Constitution. Initially, the votes of Women and Blacks were not recognized. Thus, it became the responsibility of the interpreter to still treat both Women and Blacks with respect. Taken a step further, to correct "flaws", give Rights to both Blacks and Women to have their votes fully recognized. The Constitution is still "flawed" in that it does specifically allow Children to vote. Is this a flaw? That is a matter of interpretation. There may exist valid reasons on both sides of the argument to interpret the Constitution in a way that allows Children the Right to vote, and also valid reasons to deny Children the Right to vote. What is important is that the Rights of Children remain protected by the responsible persons interpretation of the wording of the Constitution. This is the same for ALL People. The responsibility to protect the Rights of Each Other.
 
ahahahaha
ahahahaahahaha
ahahahahahahahaha

Blessings don't necessarily refer to any deity's favour

The text says "THEIR Creator", which doesn't favour any deity, nor really anything, as many of your Founding Fathers were believers in "natural" law. Natural being of course, inherent to nature and therefore originating at whatever beginning one believes in.

The use of "oath" in the language of the Constitution has little relevance as well. Its presence in there is merely accepting of one's beliefs, not favouring them over any other.

Furthermore, " Year of our lord" isn't meaningful, considering that even everyone today still uses the same system. A.D. Is Latin for "Year of the Lord", designating the supposed time after the birth of Christ.

I don't really see where you're going with this, as it's really no secret that your Founding Fathers were pretty tolerant of other religions. Treaty of Tripoli ring any bells?

You're wrong on all counts.
 
Of course. Another piece of paper written by men in order to control other men, who gave no consent to be ruled over, must be inspired by God's words.

It's very important to some that God is involved because that justifies the rules. You'd have anarchy if people weren't forced to abide by words written by men that weren't inspired by God.
 
Wouldn't Sean Faircloth's view of a society without the need for idea of religion and god be a better way forward. Even if the founders used religion as a guide, surely most of it is bull.
 
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