The Libertarian Case for Palin

[jmdrake]

That stategy hasn't worked out very well for the pro-lifers. What makes you think it will work out for the fiscally conservative?

Who says it didn't work? It helped get Reagan, Bush and Bush elected. It helped with Gingrich. Yes they later got betrayed by their own leaders. (Pat Robertson endorsing forced abortion in China). But the strategy worked.

In this case the strategy can work even better. Some polls had over 90% of Americans AGAINST the banker bailout. The pro life movement was NEVER that strong. The problem now is that people like Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry have latched on to the "tea party" movement even though they were initially against everything it stands for during the Bush years. (Gingrich endorsed the bailout. Perry pushed for the NAFTA superhighway). Embracing Palin only exacerbates the problem. If this becomes simply a "Let's be the dems even if we have to sacrifice principle to do it" then we could have all rallied around the McCain/Palin ticket in the first place. Until Palin at least appologizes for the bailout she's more of a liability than a help.

 

[Deborah K]

Who says it didn't work? It helped get Reagan, Bush and Bush elected. It helped with Gingrich. Yes they later got betrayed by their own leaders. (Pat Robertson endorsing forced abortion in China). But the strategy worked.

In this case the strategy can work even better. Some polls had over 90% of Americans AGAINST the banker bailout. The pro life movement was NEVER that strong. The problem now is that people like Newt Gingrich and Rick Perry have latched on to the "tea party" movement even though they were initially against everything it stands for during the Bush years. (Gingrich endorsed the bailout. Perry pushed for the NAFTA superhighway). Embracing Palin only exacerbates the problem. If this becomes simply a "Let's be the dems even if we have to sacrifice principle to do it" then we could have all rallied around the McCain/Palin ticket in the first place. Until Palin at least appologizes for the bailout she's more of a liability than a help.

You missed my point. Abortion is still considered constitutionally protected, so the strategy did NOT work. One issue stances regarding the voting block are futile if the ultimate goal is to effect real change.

 

[Kludge]

Many of us have been busting our asses doing that for years. Where have you been? Too busy hating?

Wait.... Is this whole thread sarcasm? Who are you making a "case" to?

 

[tron paul]

Ron & Sarah love God & Guns

It also appears to me that the ideologies on this board alone are too fragmented to get anything done.

I believe that freedom unites us. However...

The mass movement behind Palin is being put down by a Can't-Get-Along Gang of malcontents holding contradictory views (communism, nihilism, anarchism) united only by opposition to conservative principles respecting God, abortion, gays, etc.

Ron Paul and Palin strongly agree on these so-called moose & squirrel social conservative issues. They don't share the immature attitudes held by most of Digg, Fark, Wonkette, and other places where the young and opinionated to go to vent their hatred of the rural, religious, and fertile.

Yet some Palin haters claim the mantle of True Libertarianism(tm) and presume to write her movement out of our wonderful, emerging, and growing Freedom Coalition on weak, tenuous charges of neoconservatism.

This attitude, not Alaska's former Governor, has the greatest potential to co-opt and split the freedom movement.

 

[tron paul]

Wait.... Is this whole thread sarcasm? Who are you making a "case" to?

People with social skills. People with a future in politics. People who can help the cause of Liberty, instead of hurting it by representing it poorly and in a boorish manner.

 

[jmdrake]

Many of us have been busting our asses doing that for years. Where have you been? Too busy hating?

We also won over many 'less idealogically pure' liberals like Kucinich and McKinney, BTW. That's why HR1207 has so much support. Not because we let the abortion & war issues dominate everything else and refused to work with the 'impure.'

That's nice. Has Palin endorsed HR1207? Has she apologized for supporting the bailout? It's not whether or not Palin is "ideologically pure". It's whether or not she's on our side on the number 1 issue we are pushing right now!

A goal higher than 1 or 2 would be more helpful. But it's a start.

Thanks for stopping the bashing long enough to consider the strategic possibilities of using the insurgent Palinite, Tea Party, Townhall Mob movement to further our mutual goals.

What's hurting the Tea Party movement more than anything is the smell of hypocrisy. When people like Gingrich are allowed to speak after cutting commercials with Nancy Pelosi about "fighting global warming", coming to an agreement with Hillary Clinton on universal health care, and (initially) endorsing the Bush bailout it undermines the movement. Palin only worsens this. Every day Obama supporters are getting more and more nervous about their man. The last thing we need is to legitimize the charge that the movement is ok with GOP bailouts and "stimulus" plans that further weaken our economy, but we have a problem when a black democrat does it. Believe me. I've had that charge thrown in my face already. (Most people I know support Obama). I gently remind them that I was just as outspoken against the Bush bailout. The movement embracing republicans that supported the bailout cuts my whole argument out from under me.

Really though. Why Palin? She's not the only republican in the country. Most republicans voted AGAINST the Bush bailout. Why is this concerted effort to elevate people like Palin, Gingrich and Cornyn who supported the bailout over people like Richard Shelby, Jim Demint and others who opposed it? If you can convince Palin to repent of her ways great. If not then she can't help unite the Obama opposition because she was and is very much part of the problem. Heck I'd take Mike Huckabee over Palin. Tom Tancredo? Duncan Hunter? Fred Thompson?

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[Kludge]

People with social skills. People with a future in politics. People who can help the cause of Liberty, instead of hurting it by representing it poorly and in a boorish manner.

So then I can only assume you don't read what you write.

Edit: I quoted that snippet in hopes to bring it to your attention that rude and baseless libel against other members probably isn't a good way of representing your agenda.

 

[jmdrake]

You missed my point. Abortion is still considered constitutionally protected, so the strategy did NOT work. One issue stances regarding the voting block are futile if the ultimate goal is to effect real change.

What part of "they were betrayed by their own leaders" do you not understand? What part of "the anti abortion movement never came CLOSE to 90%" do you not understand?

Really, just do the math. You need 2/3rds of the states to ratify a constitutional amendment. The anti abortion movement never came CLOSE to those numbers. Opposing bailouts doesn't require a constitutional amendment. It simply requires a simple majority in the house and/or senate. It's a far more achievable goal that has far greater support across the entire country.

Regards,

John M. Drake

 

[acptulsa]

So then I can only assume you don't read what you write.

Edit: I quoted that snippet in hopes to bring it to your attention that rude and baseless libel against other members probably isn't a good way of representing your agenda.

Apply your property rights! You just pwned someone...

 

[jmdrake]

People with social skills. People with a future in politics. People who can help the cause of Liberty, instead of hurting it by representing it poorly and in a boorish manner.

Embracing hypocrisy does not help the cause of liberty. If I wanted a president who supported bailouts, the Iraq war etc. then I could have just voted for John McCain. Heck Bush fits that bill too. And Palin embraced Dick Cheney's view of the "all powerful" VP. Ok, she's good on guns and abortion. She gave lip service to lower taxes (while endorsing a bailout that has to be paid for somehow). What else?

 

[Deborah K]

What part of "they were betrayed by their own leaders" do you not understand? What part of "the anti abortion movement never came CLOSE to 90%" do you not understand?

Really, just do the math. You need 2/3rds of the states to ratify a constitutional amendment. The anti abortion movement never came CLOSE to those numbers. Opposing bailouts doesn't require a constitutional amendment. It simply requires a simple majority in the house and/or senate. It's a far more achievable goal that has far greater support across the entire country.

Regards,

John M. Drake

I responded to your "stand on principles" remark:

There's one way and one way only to get our country back. We have to stand on principles. The overwhelming majority of Americans were against the bailout. If everyone who was against the bailout only supported anti bailout politicians then we'd have our country back.

Which has little to do with what you are now claiming. Interesting how that works. I stand by my claim that one issue voters never achieve anything. Compromise is not a sin.

 

[tron paul]

I'm glad we're talking strategy now instead of just bashing Palin. That's like bashing Bush: it's too easy and everyone does it. But I still can't get behind the idea of supporting her.

The strategy talk was the best part of the thread, for the short time it lasted.
Good point about the too-easy mindless bashing, I'll have to remember it applies to Obama too. What about supporting her movement with our knowledge and experience? Would that co-opt 'us' or 'them?'

And if people are going to blow off the most sound conservative of our time, how is a hockey mom from Alaska going to get any respect from the American people?!

The hockey mom already has the respect of millions of Americans, polling highest among Conservatives. So let's act like this is an opportunity instead of a crises.

Palin may be the only person alive that can change the minds of many pro-war Republicans and bring them back to respecting the Constitution.

They won't listen to Ron Paul. Ironically, because of the Palinesque media smear job they did on him.

By now, we should all know better than to hate who the media tells us to.

 

[acptulsa]

Palin may be the only person alive that can change the minds of many pro-war Republicans and bring them back to respecting the Constitution.

If she ever starts on this project, it will ameliorate my attitude towards her immensely. Not holding my breath in the meantime.

 

[Deborah K]

The strategy talk was the best part of the thread, for the short time it lasted.
Good point about the too-easy mindless bashing, I'll have to remember it applies to Obama too. What about supporting her movement with our knowledge and experience? Would that co-opt 'us' or 'them?'




The hockey mom already has the respect of millions of Americans, polling highest among Conservatives. So let's act like this is an opportunity instead of a crises.

Palin may be the only person alive that can change the minds of many pro-war Republicans and bring them back to respecting the Constitution.

They won't listen to Ron Paul. Ironically, because of the Palinesque media smear job they did on him.

By now, we should all know better than to hate who the media tells us to.

I agree with you.

 

[Deborah K]

If she ever starts on this project, it will ameliorate my attitude towards her immensely. Not holding my breath in the meantime.

And that my dear friend, is where we come in. Our positive influence over her supporters can change everything.

Never before has there been so much talk about the Constitution in the media or otherwise, since Dr. Paul became so well known. His message has permeated in ways that we will never fully know. It's time to take that message to everyone that can be easily converted.

 

[jmdrake]

I responded to your "stand on principles" remark:




Which has little to do with what you are now claiming. Interesting how that works. I stand by my claim that one issue voters never achieve anything. Compromise is not a sin.

If one of your principles is in line with 90% of the American people than it is absolutely stupid to "compromise" that principle. Do you think the pro life movement would do better to endorse Rudy Giuliani? Like I said, the pro life movement was betrayed by their own leaders. They compromised for the sake of power and found themselves cast aside like a used condom.

 

[jmdrake]

The strategy talk was the best part of the thread, for the short time it lasted.
Good point about the too-easy mindless bashing, I'll have to remember it applies to Obama too. What about supporting her movement with our knowledge and experience? Would that co-opt 'us' or 'them?'




The hockey mom already has the respect of millions of Americans, polling highest among Conservatives. So let's act like this is an opportunity instead of a crises.

Palin may be the only person alive that can change the minds of many pro-war Republicans and bring them back to respecting the Constitution.

They won't listen to Ron Paul. Ironically, because of the Palinesque media smear job they did on him.

By now, we should all know better than to hate who the media tells us to.

Oh really?

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/pub..._at_the_top_and_bottom_for_gop_voters_in_2012
Seventy-six percent (76%) of Republican voters have a favorable opinion of Palin, even after her decision to resign as governor of Alaska, with 45% whose view of her is very favorable. Palin trails Huckabee, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican presidential nomination in 2008. Huckabee is favored by 78%, with 41% who feel very favorably toward him.

If you're going strictly by the polls you should be pushing Huckabee over Palin. Then again if your going strictly by the polls you should just support John McCain and be done with it.

 

[Deborah K]

If one of your principles is in line with 90% of the American people than it is absolutely stupid to "compromise" that principle. Do you think the pro life movement would do better to endorse Rudy Giuliani? Like I said, the pro life movement was betrayed by their own leaders. They compromised for the sake of power and found themselves cast aside like a used condom.

Are you capable of having a debate without implying that I'm stupid and using vulgar terms like ^ in your argument??

 

[jmdrake]

And that my dear friend, is where we come in. Our positive influence over her supporters can change everything.

Never before has there been so much talk about the Constitution in the media or otherwise, since Dr. Paul became so well known. His message has permeated in ways that we will never fully know. It's time to take that message to everyone that can be easily converted.

There's nothing wrong with trying to influence Palin supporters. But then again there's nothing wrong with trying to influence Obama supporters, McCain supporters, Bush supporters, Jesse Jackson supporters or anybody you can reach. Most all of these people of these supporters were against the bailout even though the politicians they supported were not. (Don't know about Jesse Jackson but you get the point).

 

[tron paul]

Sarah Palin was the darling of this forum during the primaries. Did ya'll get brainwashed by the socialist Huffington Post and the idiots on Saturday Night Live? I think so, and some of you just follow the little clique on this board. Pitiful. Sarah Palin supported Pat Buchanan when he ran for president and she was involved with the Alaskan Independent Party which is an affiliate of the Constitution Party. I guess it's because ya'll are really young that you think you have to follow the unspoken leaders on this board rather than look at things objectively and most of you are still in high school and can't vote. Tones

I've named that little clique the Can't Get Along Gang, because they'd rather resent Social Conservatives (like Ron Paul) than get along with (and influence) Palin's mass movement.

Another way to explain the situation is with Palin Derangement Syndrome. They need a new BushHitlerCheney to complete them, so they can feel all Batman superhero when opposing the Manchurian Palin's supervillainess machinations.


McCain picked Palin because she had the most "Ron Paul Cred" not because she's Huckabee in a dress. McCain wasn't worried about Hucksters voting for Obama, but knew the rEVOLution was a force he desperately needed on his side.

I've had it with the "Sarah is a Neocon" canard. I'll going to write something debunking that nonsense issue-by-issue.