The image microsoft doesn't want you to see

I don't agree with this statement. Product quality is at historic highs. In the 1970s a car lasted maybe a few years, and 100k was a huge amount of miles for your car. Nowadays cars ship with 100k bumper to bumper warranties. They last a lot longer.

Actually product quality is one of the things that is hurting labor. Quality goes up, products last longer, less demand for labor.

The best solution is voluntary economic/monetary cooperatives. People need to be able to join an economic cooperative where they actual trade each other for goods and labor, not the multinational slavery marketed as "free trade" that we have today.

Wow. I guess we live in different universes. A microwave I bought 25 years ago lasted 20 years, the one I bought 5 years ago is not long for this world. That's not the exception in my world, it's the rule. I have yet to see anything made in the last 15 years that lasts even a fraction as long as things that were made 30 years ago. And 50+ years ago it was common for cars to trip their odo. It was in the 70's when obselescence was engineered. We are only now getting back to the vehicle longevity we already had in the 50's
 
Sigh...

For the record, there are a lot of reasons why Chinese workers work their asses off for almost nothing, and contrary to emotional knee-jerk reactions, it has nothing to do with "lack of regulations and minimum wage." People who know more about China can get into all the other multitude of statist policies that cumulatively destroy the consumer side of their market, but I do know one GIGANTIC factor:

Like many producer markets in the developing world, China has a severe imbalance between exports and consumption, and the Chinese government has had a long track record of deliberately ensuring things stayed this way. Because their people are starting off dirt poor, their goods fetch much higher demand/prices from consumer markets like ours (for now) than they can at home. Therefore, China exports more goods than the common people of China can really afford to export, which drastically reduces their domestic supply of goods. There's not much material wealth to go around among the common people in China's domestic economy, and that means what is going around is going for high prices relative to Chinese wages. This means that people cannot easily consume much, and/or they cannot easily save much. They have little power for wage negotiations, since pretty much everyone is in the same boat just scraping by, and nobody really has time to sit around holding out for a better offer.

It's worse than that though, and here comes the part about why the Chinese market has not quickly outgrown this kind of problem. A domestic economy that produces for its own consumption becomes more wealthy as more is produced (because more wealth is going around, not all of it disappears after one use, and increasing efficiency means more wealth starts going around even faster). An economy built on exports becomes more wealthy another way: Ordinarily, the value of the yuan would have risen with every export (because people exchange dollars, etc. for yuan to buy Chinese products), and the buying power of Chinese wage earners would therefore have cumulatively increased, day by day. Under such ordinary circumstances, Chinese wage-earners would have quickly and cumulatively increased their capacity for consumption, dramatically and cumulatively increasing their standards of living. By this point, by all rights, they should be living relatively comfortable lives. However, that's not what happened. Do you know why? Not only does China export most of their goods, but for years and years, the Chinese government and banks have been deliberately buying dollars afterwards to suppress the value of their own currency. I vaguely recall they stopped holding keeping the yuan down like this a while ago, but we're talking years and years of manipulation. This manipulation has two effects:
  1. It makes the Chinese bankers and Chinese government extremely wealthy.
  2. It prolongs the status quo of disproportionate exports to domestic consumption, ensuring that the gravy train for the bankers and government keeps on going...at the expense of the people.
Obviously, this makes things much harder on Chinese workers, and it keeps them in their so-far perpetual sweatshop state.

I could rail against the short-sightedness of US protectionism with respect to our own wealth as well, but I'll just let the Chinese exploitation side of the equation sink in for a bit. Protectionism is not the answer...not here, and not in China.
 
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Protectionism is not the answer...not here, and not in China.

I don't see increased tariffs on Chinese goods as protectionism. There are many countries throughout Asia and South America that can produce these goods, it doesn't have to be America. But the way the elites in China have such a strangle hold over the people needs to stop. The middle class may have grown, but as you pointed out, it should have grown a lot faster.
 
I don't see increased tariffs on Chinese goods as protectionism. There are many countries throughout Asia and South America that can produce these goods, it doesn't have to be America. But the way the elites in China have such a strangle hold over the people needs to stop. The middle class may have grown, but as you pointed out, it should have grown a lot faster.

Well, as I mentioned, the Chinese government supposedly stopped deliberately holding the yuan down a while back (does anyone know if this is still accurate? I don't really keep up with this stuff), and they aren't buying US Treasuries hand-over-fist like they used to, thanks to our own currency problems. Hopefully, this will allow the Chinese people to start rising up...although they've been screwed out of years of domestic growth that may be hard to get back.

I actually don't really see tariffs helping to loosen the Chinese government's hold on their people, unless nobody in the world bought Chinese, and they ended up consuming their own goods for lack of other options. Otherwise, increasing tariffs would just mean they'd take a profit hit and/or cut prices (and therefore wages). In other words, tariffs/sanctions/etc. could make things even harder on the average Chinese person. Honestly, there's very little that international powers - like the US - can do to weaken the Chinese regime...especially if you limit intervention to choices that would not have tremendous blowback or set horrendous precedents for sweeping ill-advised foreign intervention. No matter how much it sucks to see people suffer, real change in China is going to have to come from the Chinese people themselves.

Plus, tariffs would really hurt our own economy (not help, like protectionists believe): There would be a lot fewer goods on the market, and prices would be much higher at a time when people are just making ends meet. Since our producer base is so weak right now, it would take time to recover from that...especially considering we have too much inflation, too many taxes, and too many regulations for an efficient and quickly growing producer market with reasonable entry barriers for competition. However, there would be a silver lining: IF everyone in the world, not just the US, stopped buying Chinese exports, they'd eventually have to stop buying dollars, which would force the government to be fiscally responsible (lol, nevermind, they'd just monetize the debt! ;)). Finally, we REALLY, REALLY do NOT want to piss China off right now, because they hold enough of our debt to turn us into a third world country overnight (slight hyperbole). I know what it feels like to be American, because I've lived here my whole life: We feel strong, we feel invulnerable, and we feel like we can always call the shots and pressure other countries into conforming to our expectations (regardless of whether we should). The truth is, we're playing with a pretty low hand right now, aside from our military might and nukes.

There are other issues too, but those are the big ones (aside from the NAP...and even if you're not big on absolute moral principles, I've frankly concluded that tolerating government coercion in limited circumstances for the supposed "greater good" pretty much always comes back to bite us in the ass, usually because it gives the government footing for greater and greater violations).
 
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The thing is, by your logic, consumers should voluntarily continue to support Chinese goods, because its beneficial to our economy and keeps Chinese wages from going down.

America needs to reduce its consumption of useless crap anyway. That's a big reason we're in this mess. I think tariffs would be a good counter weight to the competitive advantage walmart and other huge corporations get from doing business in China. Then, corporations that employ labor in countries with better human rights record would be able to step into global trade a little more.

Of course, this would cause incredible hardships for the Chinese people. But, from how I understand it, the financial reckoning is on the horizon, and the Chinese will have to deal with these problems eventually (post dollar or euro collapse).
 
The thing is, by your logic, consumers should voluntarily continue to support Chinese goods, because its beneficial to our economy and keeps Chinese wages from going down.

America needs to reduce its consumption of useless crap anyway.
I think it might be unwise to paint with such a wide brush here. In the general sense I agree with you, but the biggest and most wasteful purchases that overly indebted consumers have been making for the past couple decades - expensive cars, boats, and houses - do not typically come from China. Many of us might spend too loosely on computers and electronic gadgets too, but those also often serve an important purpose in our own economy, and a huge price spike would not be helpful at this point. Moreover, rising prices on small consumer goods will hurt the poor more than anyone.

In short, we should definitely be collectively spending less, taking out less debt, etc., but raising tariffs is one hell of a destructive way to achieve that. We'd be better off starting by ending the Fed or legalizing free market currency competition, since inflation encourages borrowing and spending, whereas stable prices and deflation encourage saving. :p

That's a big reason we're in this mess. I think tariffs would be a good counter weight to the competitive advantage walmart and other huge corporations get from doing business in China. Then, corporations that employ labor in countries with better human rights record would be able to step into global trade a little more.
This may be true in the short term, but I think it's ultimately short-sighted: You're trying to get the state to fix this problem by exercising its coercive power (and therefore growing its influence over the market). Do you really think corporate welfare queens and dominant megacorporations - the ones who the federal government answers to - would not have an answer for this in turn? ;) Playing with government is like playing with fire, except that it's a few orders of magnitude more dangerous. There are much, much better ways to eliminate the advantages of huge corporations, which don't have as many side effects as tariffs, and they all involve shrinking the government's influence over the market.

Of course, this would cause incredible hardships for the Chinese people. But, from how I understand it, the financial reckoning is on the horizon, and the Chinese will have to deal with these problems eventually (post dollar or euro collapse).
If you concede that tariffs would actually cause hardships for the Chinese people (instead of easing their burden as intended), then we're down to the effects of tariffs on the US economy...which I think are questionable at best.

You may be right about the currency collapse shaking up the status quo in China, but I think it really depends on how and when it occurs. If the dollar collapses while the Chinese government is holding the bag, there are too many variables for me to consider at the moment. ;) However, if the Chinese government gets its wish of a new international [fiat] reserve currency with an international central bank first, and central banks convert their holdings, then a full collapse might take a lot longer.
 
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Of course monetary reform in this country would fix a lot of things. I guess I'm solely looking at the issue of the competitive advantage corporations that deal with China have.

Every time I get into this discussion, though, I find I get myself into a loop. If the American population becomes conscious enough to demand higher tariffs for China, wouldn't they already be at the stage where they could just boycott Chinese goods (or encourage companies to push political reforms in China)? So yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. I have no idea which route is the fastest to take away power from the Chinese corporatists.
 
Of course monetary reform in this country would fix a lot of things. I guess I'm solely looking at the issue of the competitive advantage corporations that deal with China have.

Every time I get into this discussion, though, I find I get myself into a loop. If the American population becomes conscious enough to demand higher tariffs for China, wouldn't they already be at the stage where they could just boycott Chinese goods (or encourage companies to push political reforms in China)? So yeah, that's pretty much where I'm at. I have no idea which route is the fastest to take away power from the Chinese corporatists.

Just brainstorming here, but I wonder if the fastest route might be a widespread grassroots campaign to poke innumerable holes in the Great Firewall and otherwise bring a wealth of unfiltered information to the Chinese? ;) It'd probably require a lot closer geographical proximity than we have here though, and it would also require serious commitment and risks by the people doing it.

EDIT: Reflecting on this, it may actually be possible with a huge wireless network that crosses their border and bypasses their backbone lines. It'd require a significant investment and some router smuggling (or not, considering most are probably made in China!), but could you imagine the fits the CCP would have? :D Thinking about it some more, it might even be a financially viable covert campaign for Google in the long term, as a back-door into the Chinese market and payback for their hacking attempt.
 
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I see a lot of people are so angry at Microsoft (and other computer companies, I might add) that they're going to tap and type away at their computers in righteous anger!

Perhaps you're also the sort of people who're angry at how cruel people are, killing cows and other animals for meat... as you chomp down on a big juicy burger :D

I'm not pissed at Microsoft for sweatshops...I'm more pissed off that since Bill Gates has been purchasing quite a few gaming licenses that the majority of video games suck now.

Anyways...Linux ftw.
 
I'm more pissed off that since Bill Gates has been purchasing quite a few gaming licenses that the majority of video games suck now.

I'm curious as to why you think video games suck nowadays. To me it seems that it would be very hard to write a video game today because most of the concepts have already been done 100s of times.

What would make you buy a new video game? Better graphics? Topical content? Novel theme?
 
Seems like cheap as shipping has gotten they oughta have all them folks working from home.

Why pay to put a roof over their heads and chance the bad publicity? I just can't make any sense out of that...
 
I did not see any guns or chains in the picture. Otherwise this is protectionist propaganda.
 
I did not see any guns or chains in the picture. Otherwise this is protectionist propaganda.

Yeah, it has to be one or the other :rolleyes:

The guns and chains were used against their parents and grandparents, now Microsoft is reaping the benefits

Reality is not a simple as you'd like it to be.
 
"The guns and chains were used against their parents and grandparents"

Yes, well look around, governments still use guns and chains everywhere - some take different methods but they remain the same ends.

Because they were once much worse off does not mean that they will forever be that way. And as I see it, they have discovered the value of capitalism as we are discarding it.

I would not think that the totalitarian bonds you seem to think only afflict them are not to be found in Americas past and soon in her future.



The hate China bandwagon is getting bigger and bigger, and from the states perspective, not fast enough. There is strong nationalistic envy at work here; to see China take its place as a economic powerhouse is inevitable, we need not start anymore wars in poor spirit and work on getting back to freedom, working and saving if we wish to reclaim that spot.


BTW If Microsoft makes the 'evil sweat shop" profits, then there is another "evil "profit that naturally must follow. The consumers who have a copy of windows operating right now are the profiteers of the "sweat shops". Don't buy Microsoft.
 
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That picture was probably taken at break time. If you were tired of working and got a break, I'm sure you would take a power nap too.
 
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