The Delusion of Limited Government

Ronin Truth

Banned
Joined
Oct 30, 2013
Messages
22,510
The Delusion of Limited Government

May 22, 2015

Written by Butler Schaffer.

This mantra continued to be invoked throughout the evening, as the speakers lamented the parallel diminution in liberty and expansion of state power: increased economic regulation, governments siphoning off some 45% of the wealth produced each year, and decreasing parental control over government schools (references to war as the most flagrant expression of statism were carefully avoided, however). As I listened, I asked myself: what objection do these people really have? They celebrate the Constitution, carrying it around with them like a book of catechisms and, at the same time, complain that this document has not restrained the power of the state!

There is an innocence, born of years of institutional conditioning, that leads most people to believe that the destructive powers of the state can be limited by the drafting and adoption of constitutions. Such hopes were expressed by seventeenth and eighteenth century philosophers who, building upon the capacity of private contracts to define the limits of interpersonal behavior, sought to extend such benefits to the social realm.

But the abstract reasoning that underlay such expectations was soon confronted by the experiences of Realpolitik.


One would have thought that a group of people who believed in “free markets” would be astute enough to recognize the self-interest motivations that underlie all human behavior; and would further perceive that creating an instrumentality of coercive power would be far too dangerous a temptation to place before men and women. No more than should a bowl of candy be placed before a group of children with the expectation that it not be touched, should we expect political systems to be immune from mischief.


Given that a government, by definition, enjoys a monopoly on the use of force within a particular territory; and given that human beings are motivated to pursue their self-interests in the least costly method to them of doing so, what reasoning or historical experience would lead one to the conclusion that people would be disinclined to use the power of the state to advance their interests? And if some would be tempted to employ such powers to their advantage, why would we not expect others to do so as well? Furthermore, why would we not expect the state, itself, to formulate its own self-interest agenda to aggrandize its only available asset: coercive power over the lives and property of people?


The “limited government” advocates respond to such questions by invoking the power of words as a restriction on state power. The Constitution contains language that carefully defines the purposes and limitations of governmental authority, and state action that exceeds such limits will be acknowledged as “unconstitutional.” The arrangement sounds so rational, but fails to take into account one of the fundamental shortcomings in all language: words are abstractions of reality and, in order to be applied to the world, must be interpreted! Alfred Korzybski stated the proposition more succinctly: “the map is not the territory.” At best, words give us only approximations of shared meanings, and our efforts to communicate clearly with one another necessitate our use of as much precision as we can muster. Around the edges of every word, however, is a fuzziness that invariably succumbs to the Korzybski principle.


The following example will make the point. The produce manager of a grocery store has one aisle devoted to “fruits” and another to “vegetables.” In which aisle should he put peas, tomatoes, and avocadoes?

Taxonomically, they belong with the other fruits, but by custom they are eaten as vegetables.


The fuzziness problem becomes even more troublesome as we move into words of a more abstract nature, such as we find in the United States Constitution. This instrument of allegedly “limited powers” contains a preamble that defines its purposes as the creation of “a more perfect Union,” which will “establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty.” The specific grants of power to Congress are then spelled out in Article I, which include, among others, the “Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.” How do such words limit governmental power? What more would any tyrant need to justify his actions than these?


But Article I goes on to provide, among others, the power “To Borrow Money on the credit of the United States,” “To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes,” and “To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.” Where, in such words, does one find any clearly defined restriction on government power?


What do we mean by “Justice”: is it, to paraphrase Thrasymachus, only whatever is in the interest of the stronger party, or nothing more than the redistribution of violence? Is the “general Welfare” to find expression in the utilitarian principle of “the greatest good for the greatest number,” or “the greatest good for the greatest guy?” Against what must we mount a “common defence”: the “heartbreak of psoriasis?” Bad breath? Bad music?


Korzybski’s admonition is revealed in the irony that the same words conservatives see as limiting governmental powers, liberals see as providing a means for the expansion of such powers! Words — particularly those as general as are used in the Constitution — must always be interpreted and, as Anthony de Jasay has so insightfully stated it, “collective choice is never independent of what significant numbers of individuals wish it to be.” Conservatives continue to wrap themselves up in the kinds of knotted thinking about how the Constitution is what keeps the government from doing all the terrible things that it does.

Nevertheless, the harsh reality is that there is nothing the federal government does that cannot be interpreted as being within the meaning of these empowering words!


Suppose that you and I enter into an agreement by which I will have complete control over all your assets — your bank accounts, investments, real estate, etc. — subject only to the proviso that my authority can only be exercised for your “welfare.” Don’t you see how I could rationalize an attractive salary, health care and other fringe benefits, a new car and office space, and trips to foreign countries (to check out alternative investment opportunities, of course) as being necessary for my efforts on your behalf? A court of law might conclude that I was engaged in over-reaching, perhaps, and restrain my ambitions. But courts are part of the enforcement machinery of the state, and have little incentive to confine governmental powers, even if they were otherwise inclined to do so.


For those who would put their faith in the judicial branch of government to restrain the powers of the state, take a look at how the courts have interpreted both congressional powers, and the “bill of rights'” supposed limitations on such powers. Government authority has been given an expansive definition, and individual liberties a narrow one. The courts are continually declaring that the “necessary and proper” clause “is not limited to,” or that the “commerce clause” is “not confined to,” or that some other grant “does not restrict” the government in some way. By contrast, First Amendment “free speech” rights “do not include,” or “freedom of religion” “does not mean,” or some other right “does not extend to” an activity the state wishes to restrict. “Free speech” has long been subject to a “clear and present danger” test — a limitation not found in the First Amendment — leaving us with the realistic interpretation that the state may not restrict free speech unless it chooses to do so!


Once an agency of force has been set up to govern the lives of people, there are no words or other magical incantations to which resort may be had to guarantee the limited exercise of such powers. A friend of mine, Sy Leon, illustrated this with the following example. Suppose that the Constitution limited the federal government to only one function: to “regulate time.” Play around with such words, yourself, and you will see how the present federal power structure could be rationalized from such “limited” authority. Legislation could be enacted providing that “no one shall spend his or her time working for less than $5.80 per hour;” “no one shall spend his or her time driving an automobile at a speed in excess of 55 mph;” “all persons between the ages of 18-35 shall spend two years of their time in military service;” “no one shall spend their time using marijuana or other defined drugs;” etc., etc.


When we recall that the Soviet Union had a constitution — modeled after the United States Constitution — it should be evident that liberty can never be guaranteed by the scribbling of words on parchment. Those who wave copies of the Constitution around as symbols of their liberty, remind me of dogs who have learned to carry their leashes in their mouths.


A society will remain as free or as enslaved as the conscious dispositions of individuals determine it shall be.

Just as the roots of oppression are found in passivity, the foundations of our liberty reside in highly energized and focused minds that insist upon their independence. There are no shortcuts, no structures or doctrines that can be erected, no hallowed documents to be revered, to save us the effort of continually challenging those who would presume to exercise authority over our lives.


notbeinggoverned.com



http://www.notbeinggoverned.com/the...tBeingGoverned+(The+Art+of+Not+Being+Governed)
 
Back from your vacation already?

here we are. 9 years later... and we are still having this discussion?

Ron Paul encouraged me to join in his effort to restore our system of Limited Government.. and I did.
if we are not here to work with him and Rand and others.. to restore our Republic.. what the hell are we doing here? :toady:

if this is some misguided attempt for "all voices to be heard" fine. give it a sticky.

and yes. I am out of neg rep for this member as well as this subject. :(
 
[TABLE="width: 663"]
[TR]
[TD]The US was generally copied from ancient Greece and particularly the Roman Republic, and though there was huge amount of refinement, still the fundamentals were the same. So it is eroding in the same manner as the Roman Republic, and a study of that process, viz how the Romans slid into democracy (patricians overwhelmed by the plebeian majority) would be quite beneficial to stopping the slide. We are in a similar state -- influence of the Founders was so high that it overcame the majority of those times, and practically they were similar to the Roman Patricians. But today that majority from the bottom side is so high in its influence that it is close to take over!!
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
here we are. 9 years later... and we are still having this discussion?

Ron Paul encouraged me to join in his effort to restore our system of Limited Government.. and I did.
if we are not here to work with him and Rand and others.. to restore our Republic.. what the hell are we doing here? :toady:

if this is some misguided attempt for "all voices to be heard" fine. give it a sticky.

and yes. I am out of neg rep for this member as well as this subject. :(

I hate to tell you, but Ron wasn't in it to win...he was is in it to spread a message and wake people up. Now you know what we're still doing here. Fuck the state you love so much, and all its cousins of various levels of tyranny. :)

You cannot, like all statists, defend the state with valid premises and consistent logic. Pragmatic arguments are dispatched via free market economics and anthropology/history of stateless societies. There is no reason to believe we need a coercive monopoly over any market in order for the market to exist to meet consumer demand (if consumers want law, they will get law, etc.). Every reason you express is crushed. And ethics? It's not even a question...the state is evil. Even your worshiped Founders admitted that. The only question is of necessity among the Founders, not the ethical nature of the state. They knew the state was pure evil...they just thought it necessary. But how much time do people who despise evil spend on abolishing this evil, by making it unnecessary? Almost none, except the anarchists. Everyone else acknowledges the evil or is delusional and denies it, but either way just ignore their obligation to make it unnecessary, if indeed it ever was necessary.

So, when you can use valid premises and consistent logic to make sound philosophical arguments that the state is ethical (impossible) OR it is necessary (have not run across an argument yet that I didn't myself make as a statist before becoming an anarchist, and yet cannot today show it plausibly false or logically inconsistent). In the end though, it's only the ethics that matter...

...because the reason to end chattel slavery was not "we don't need it to bring cotton to market, it will be cheaper by way of paid labor, and I can foresee the future where giant machines do the work of 30 men". The reason to end chattel slavery was "regardless of the consequences, which will be likely better given the removal of initiated coercion, which then spurs innovation and invention to meet ACTUAL un-coerced consumer demand, we must abolish chattel slavery because IT'S FUCKING EVIL, ASSHOLE!"

But keep thinking your big tent strategy for Rand, which resulted in less money and less votes than his dad got with a much purer libertarian message that even us anarchists respected, even if we disagreed in part, is working or going to work. We aren't the ones who need to piss off. The question is "why are we still not purging all the non-libertarians from this forum who failed to yield us jackshit?" We watered down the crowd and the message with Rand and the non-libertarians he attracted. Maybe we should consider his shit results in doing that, and revert back to running candidates who want to win less than wake people up, and view winning like Ron did; not as the main goal, but as an unhappy consequence of waking up enough people. That way, we don't bullshit the people LIKE FUCKING STATIST political parasites always do...instead, we tell the Truth and then if we win it is merely a confirmation enough woke up and the people en masse are ready for radical (not reformist) changes.

We're glad you're out of neg rep...and if you hand it out over topics like this we'll endlessly neg rep you back until you stop being a thought nazi.
 
Last edited:
Ron and Lew are both pretty fond of the late Murray Rothbard, the father of anarcho-capitalism.

Does that explanation help?

https://www.lewrockwell.com/author/murray-n-rothbard/

I suppose you could also call it a truth movement. :D

I guess I find it odd that Ron would introduce himself as a "Champion of the Constitution." being a founding document of our Government. To be an Anarchist would be an enemy of the Constitution.
 
I guess I find it odd that Ron would introduce himself as a "Champion of the Constitution." being a founding document of our Government. To be an Anarchist would be an enemy of the Constitution.

Thomas Jefferson was against the constitution when it was passed but relied on it later as a check on the out of control presidency of John Adams. Had Jefferson had his way men like John Adams wouldn't have had such great power that needed restricting.
 
Thomas Jefferson was against the constitution when it was passed but relied on it later as a check on the out of control presidency of John Adams. Had Jefferson had his way men like John Adams wouldn't have had such great power that needed restricting.
This^^
 
Last edited:
I guess I find it odd that Ron would introduce himself as a "Champion of the Constitution." being a founding document of our Government. To be an Anarchist would be an enemy of the Constitution.

Not really. I'm an "anarchist" but I'm certainly willing to work towards any movement to "smaller" "goonerment". As small as it would get, I'm still going to work to make it smaller and smaller and smaller... In this vein, I'm certainly willing to promote the "constitution" as a means to smaller goonerment.
 
I guess I find it odd that Ron would introduce himself as a "Champion of the Constitution." being a founding document of our Government. To be an Anarchist would be an enemy of the Constitution.

Ron recognizes the key flaw in anarchist philosophy, that it is an inherently transitional state to something else and not a stable, sustainable arrangement that can provide for long-term liberty.
 
Ron recognizes the key flaw in anarchist philosophy, that it is an inherently transitional state to something else and not a stable, sustainable arrangement that can provide for long-term liberty.
And CONstitutionalists get it right, of course. ;)
 
Ron recognizes the key flaw in anarchist philosophy, that it is an inherently transitional state to something else and not a stable, sustainable arrangement that can provide for long-term liberty.

You seem to be dragging an awful lot out of the very simple concept of "no rulers".
 
Ron's favorite founding father is John Adams.

Who has called Ron an anarchist? Anarchists do not hold public offices.

ron paul lysander spooner

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en.....1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..1.14.2423.Md3MQRybmOA

“Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable [abominable] cruelty of one or a very few.”

— John Adams (1797-1801) Second President of the United States and Patriot

that John Adams?
 
Back
Top