"The Constitution was intended to expand power of the government"

I will be sure to visit LewRockwell.com and drop Lew a line now that I know who to thank for the reason why I can cite Supreme Court rulings on taxation off the top of my head dating back to 1795 :rolleyes:

Try again...

Why exactly can you cite Supreme Court rulings on taxation off the top of your head dating back to 1795, anyway? Are you a lawyer, or do you just like to read law in your free time (blech)?
 
I think they read a couple articles on Lew Rockwell, and now think they know it all.

There appears to be a misunderstanding between you and "Live Free or Die". You are right that statists use these same debate tactics as I mentioned and pretend to be on your side.

However, "Live Free or Die" is not one of them as he stated that people lose against the government in court not because they are irrational but because the government fixes the outcome of the case.

This will be a moot point when we get Rand Paul and the other liberty candidates in office and they refuse to appropiate funds for the IRS.
 
Why exactly can you cite Supreme Court rulings on taxation off the top of your head dating back to 1795, anyway? Are you a lawyer, or do you just like to read law in your free time (blech)?

If government dicks with you, you are not Bill Gates, and you are not in the habit of taking it anally economically, it is in your best interest reading law in your free time to fully understand the system the guns live in.
 
"the constitution was intended to expand the power of the federal government. While doing so, it set certain limits on what the federal government could do and other limits on what the state governments could do.

If you honestly think that the united states constitution represented a step back for the powers of the federal government, you've seriously misunderstood the purpose of the document and why the constitutional convention was called in the first place."


the thing is, he is right. The document is the seed of monopoly from which you are now trying to beat back its branches.

You will not win an argument on the intentions of the constitution... The intention was, like so many others, benevolent, but the result is before your very eyes.

And for those who may make the mistake, this does not make me anti-constitutional, i think it wise to return to it, but if you get there don't rest on that goal. Abolish monopoly altogether.


If you could return to the constitution by this time tomorrow, you would only have the disease in remission... A good thing mind you, but it, "the monopoly" lives to grow again.

qft
 
I cited The Carriage Tax in 1795 case as THE PRECEDENT for the Constitutional meanings of the terms direct & indirect. It just happened the brief argued before and upheld by the Supreme Court in that case was argued personally by Hamilton. It just happens in 200+ years that precedent has never been overturned. I can't help it if you are incapable of discerning historical fact.

The Supreme Court did not set precedent in 1795. At that time, precedents were set by congress and the president. That is why the anachronistic term "opinions" is used to describe what the courts say today. They are just giving their opinion. Presidents at that time set precedents with vetoes, and congress did it with votes.

In 1795, the president did not veto and/or sign bills for policy reasons, they did it for constitutional reasons.
 
If government dicks with you, you are not Bill Gates, and you are not in the habit of taking it anally economically, it is in your best interest reading law in your free time to fully understand the system the guns live in.

That's what my lawyers for! :D
 
There appears to be a misunderstanding between you and "Live Free or Die". You are right that statists use these same debate tactics as I mentioned and pretend to be on your side.

However, "Live Free or Die" is not one of them as he stated that people lose against the government in court not because they are irrational but because the government fixes the outcome of the case.

This will be a moot point when we get Rand Paul and the other liberty candidates in office and they refuse to appropiate funds for the IRS.

I'm really looking forward to Rand's election. Besides pushing for a Fed audit and repeal of Obamacare, I also can't wait to see him grill federal judge nominees. And even better, he will assert the Senate's power to give advice and consent to all foreign policy, and to demand all treaties by ratified, rather than bogus "executive agreements".
 
The Supreme Court did not set precedent in 1795. At that time, precedents were set by congress and the president. That is why the anachronistic term "opinions" is used to describe what the courts say today. They are just giving their opinion. Presidents at that time set precedents with vetoes, and congress did it with votes.

In 1795, the president did not veto and/or sign bills for policy reasons, they did it for constitutional reasons.

Ok fine, but it is not 1795 and if you want to understand the history of income taxation in the United States that is where a person needs to begin in order to fully understand the definitions of direct and indirect the guns have upheld for the past two centuries.

The judicial racket today is entirely precedent based. You can't introduce an opinion prior to an existing precedent without it becoming subject to a frivolous claim.
 
Ok fine, but it is not 1795 and if you want to understand the history of income taxation in the United States that is where a person needs to begin in order to fully understand the definitions of direct and indirect the guns have upheld for the past two centuries.

The judicial racket today is entirely precedent based. You can't introduce an opinion prior to an existing precedent without it becoming subject to a frivolous claim.

You've based your whole case for income tax on the 1795 carriage act. Not many people cared what the Supreme Court said in 1795. In those days, a ruling had to be repeated over and over until it became common law like in England.
 
You've based your whole case for income tax on the 1795 carriage act. Not many people cared what the Supreme Court said in 1795. In those days, a ruling had to be repeated over and over until it became common law like in England.

I based the SCOTUS held interpretation of direct & indirect on the 1795 Carriage Act. And I am right no matter how you slice it. There has never been different definitions adopted by SCOTUS. By all means cite one.

By saying I have based my whole case for income tax on it pretty much defies a very extensive posting history. We haven't even got into federal jurisdiction but I have no further interest discussing it with you because you are really pissing me off with your bullshit of trying to make a claim without any evidence or citations.

Here is the difference if I cite the constitution (as I have in the past) I am going to back it up with something. Something that has existed in the real world like an early American Law Dictionary (Bouvier's for instance) or Blackstone's commentaries on English Common Law or Constitutional Convention notes to make it perfectly clear what the intended phrase in question meant or what the debate in meaning was about.

I am not going to pull some of your bullshit simply posting an excerpt of the Constitution for people to take at face value assuming people have a clue what 1700s common law doctrines were. Nor am I going to pull some of your bullshit and sit here and assert claims or make rebuttals in a debate without bringing some real world evidence to the table.

Threads I participate in on law discussions contain extensive citations and if we are talking about how things presently are they contain extensive SCOTUS citations.

And on a final note I am going to side with the Anti Federalists every day of the week. To accuse me of supporting Hamilton is complete bullshit. You support the Federalists. You advocate Federalist positions all the time. Hamilton is one of yours, not one of mine. If I have to even mention Hamilton for historical accuracy as I have had to in this thread with regards to the Carriage Tax ruling you can rest assured the very thought of Hamilton and the rest of the Federalist club politicking the events of Shay's Rebellion, the Frontier, and Foreign Policy to usurp and centralize power really pisses me off. I do not like the son of a bitch and if the rest of the Federalist coo was alive today I would tell them to kiss my ass as well despite any good intentions.
 
The 16th amendment was passed because the Supreme Court agreed that the plain language of the Constitution barred income taxes. An income tax is obviously a direct tax. What you posted is no such finding by the Supreme Court, it is just a bunch of rambling crap. And Hamilton was not on the Supreme Court. And he wanted a tax on carriages, which is a far cry from an income tax.

Please give it a rest, today is Constitution day, you are wearing thin on a lot of people here.

We had an income tax before the 16th A. The 16th A, as LFOD stated, did not create a new tax.

The income tax is and always has been an indirect tax.
 
I based the SCOTUS held interpretation of direct & indirect on the 1795 Carriage Act. And I am right no matter how you slice it. There has never been different definitions adopted by SCOTUS. By all means cite one.

By saying I have based my whole case for income tax on it pretty much defies a very extensive posting history. We haven't even got into federal jurisdiction but I have no further interest discussing it with you because you are really pissing me off with your bullshit of trying to make a claim without any evidence or citations.

Here is the difference if I cite the constitution (as I have in the past) I am going to back it up with something. Something that has existed in the real world like an early American Law Dictionary (Bouvier's for instance) or Blackstone's commentaries on English Common Law or Constitutional Convention notes to make it perfectly clear what the intended phrase in question meant or what the debate in meaning was about.

I am not going to pull some of your bullshit simply posting an excerpt of the Constitution for people to take at face value assuming people have a clue what 1700s common law doctrines were. Nor am I going to pull some of your bullshit and sit here and assert claims or make rebuttals in a debate without bringing some real world evidence to the table.

Threads I participate in on law discussions contain extensive citations and if we are talking about how things presently are they contain extensive SCOTUS citations.

And on a final note I am going to side with the Anti Federalists every day of the week. To accuse me of supporting Hamilton is complete bullshit. You support the Federalists. You advocate Federalist positions all the time. Hamilton is one of yours, not one of mine. If I have to even mention Hamilton for historical accuracy as I have had to in this thread with regards to the Carriage Tax ruling you can rest assured the very thought of Hamilton and the rest of the Federalist club politicking the events of Shay's Rebellion, the Frontier, and Foreign Policy to usurp and centralize power really pisses me off. I do not like the son of a bitch and if the rest of the Federalist coo was alive today I would tell them to kiss my ass as well despite any good intentions.

A carriage tax is not an income tax. People in the 1800s didn't think they were living under terrible oppression because of the 1795 carriage tax. There were no personal income taxes in the US until 1913, with the exception of a couple years under the tyrannical Abe Lincoln. Lincoln was elected in a very fluke occurrence. If you are arguing that there were lawyers in the 1800s who wanted an income tax, then I agree with you. There are always people out there who want more taxes. But thanks to the US Constitution, the federal government collected very little in tax money prior to 1913. In 1912, per the Mises Institute, the federal share of the GNP was only 1.75%. That makes the central government under the Constitution one of the smallest in history for a functional government. So why you would oppose the Constitution with its < 2% GNP government in favor of a smaller government of say, 0.75 %, that was not functional, I don't see your logic. Under the AoC, the central government could not even afford to send an ambassador to France and England without major problems.

I think that any government under 2% is very small. Even below 10% is small by historical standards. I would say you need at least 1% of GNP to the central government to maintain basic functions.
 
There were no personal income taxes in the US until 1913, with the exception of a couple years under the tyrannical Abe Lincoln.

Whatever dude...

Why? He could just look up the congressional records.

Revenue Act of 1862

Revenue Act of 1864

Revenue Act of 1865

Revenue Act of 1867

Revenue Act of 1870

Revenue Act of 1872

Revenue Act of 1873 (Revised Statutes)

Revenue Act of 1878

Revenue Act of 1894

Corporate Excise Tax Act of 1909

Federal Reserve Act

Revenue Act of 1913

Revenue Act of 1916

Revenue Act of 1917

Revenue Act of 1919

Revenue Act of 1921

Classification Act of 1923

Revenue Act of 1924

Revenue Act of 1926

Revenue Act of 1928

Index To The Federal Statutes 1874 - 1931

Revenue Act of 1932

Revenue Act of 1934

Revenue Act of 1935

Social Security Act of 1935

Revenue Act of 1936

Revenue Act of 1938

The IRC of 1939

Appendix to the IRC of 1939
The 'Preliminary Materials' chapter in the 1986 IRC contains a dual cross-reference table, first indexing 1939 code sections to the 1986 code, then indexing 1986 sections to the 1939 sections from which they are drawn. Once having identified the 1939 section in which you are interested, find the section listing in the 1939 appendix, where the actual statute section that it represents is listed.

The Public Salary Tax Act of 1939

The Current Tax Payment Act of 1943

Elements of the Victory Tax Act and their repeal

The IRC of 1954

The Internal Revenue Code of 1986

Code of Federal Regulations for Title 26 (Internal Revenue)

Congress passed the Act > Statutes written > then Regulations > then Codes.

great post btw... (except for the Revenue Act of 1861 which had a direct apportioned tax of 20 mil on land, internal duties, and the first income tax in section 49)
 
Okay, Ron Paul Forum posters! Don't let me down here!

I am in a constant political debate on a comic book message board that consists of 80% liberals, 10% Republican, and literally TWO libertarians. I just posted this to someone:



to which a liberal law degree grad replied with the following:



Let's hear your thoughts on this, I need some more ammo to fire back at this guy. Personally, I think he is being ignorant of the many amendments of the Constitution to cherry pick his point of view. Hell, he even proved that in his own words.
He`s 100% correct. The CONstitution was put in place by advocates of a powerful central government. It was designed to expand federal power until the feds control everything...it continues to expand as we speak.

The "limited government" that protects individual rights and goes no farther is akin to a unicorn, it has never existed. it is patriot mythology. The CONstitution has never protected minority rights therefore there is nothing to "restore" or go back to...its a sham.
 
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Whatever dude...

You are calling taxes that aren't income taxes income taxes.

History of the Income Tax in the United States — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005921.html#ixzz0zprA0f5w

In 1868, Congress again focused its taxation efforts on tobacco and distilled spirits and eliminated the income tax in 1872. It had a short-lived revival in 1894 and 1895. In the latter year, the U.S. Supreme Court decided that the income tax was unconstitutional because it was not apportioned among the states in conformity with the Constitution.

And even when these taxes were technically in effect, hardly anyone paid them. And those that paid them paid very little. And that's assuming the taxes weren't suspended while the courts were looking at it. You have a real knack at making a mole hill into a mountain. At no time were these taxes on solid legal ground. Less than 2% of the GNP went to the federal government for most of the time prior to 1913.

So what size of central government do you think is ideal?
 
He`s 100% correct. The CONstitution was put in place by advocates of a powerful central government. It was designed to expand federal power until the feds control everything...it continues to expand as we speak.

The "limited government" that protects individual rights and goes no farther is akin to a unicorn, it has never existed. it is patriot mythology. The CONstitution has never protected minority rights therefore there is nothing to "restore" or go back to...its a sham.

That's baloney. The federal budget was only 1.75% of the GNP in 1912. The federal government only grew oppressive because the STATES voted away their power in 1913.
 
That's baloney. The federal budget was only 1.75% of the GNP in 1912. The federal government only grew oppressive because the STATES voted away their power in 1913.
When has the constitution protected liberty? Minority rights? Who advocated the CONstitution? who was against it? who got the BOR stuck in there? Why was it not there from the beginning? why is the document so vague? etc..etc.. Slavery was not oppressive? Suppression of the Whiskey rebellion was not oppressive? The alien and sedition acts were not oppressive? President Lincolns presidency was not oppressive?
 
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You are calling taxes that aren't income taxes income taxes.

Again you jest. I quoted a post by Danke listing every Revenue Act except 1861. I find your link inadequate. I would prefer to read it from the horses mouth, the actual Acts of Congress.

Lets see what The Revenue Act of 1861 Section 49 says:
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I look forward to your next un-enlightened comment about a tax on the annual income of every resident in the United States.

And even when these taxes were technically in effect, hardly anyone paid them.

I will defer your comment based on absolutely nothing to a 1957 SCOTUS ruling:

As long ago as 1926, it was the Government's position that the predecessor of § 145(b) effectively repealed § 3616(a)'s applicability to income tax evasion. See brief for the United States pp. 16-19, in United States v. Noveck, 273 U. S. 202. To be sure, during the last five years, the Government prosecuted a small number of minor offenses, we are told less than seven per cent of the criminal income tax evasion cases involving the filing of false returns, as misdemeanors under § 3616(a). More recently, a series of cases brought the relation of § 145(b) to § 3616(a) into focus, and called for an interpretative analysis of the history of these sections in order to ascertain their respective functions. And so now, for the first time, has the Government made a detailed survey of the problem of alleged overlapping between § 3616(a) and § 145(b).

Section 3616(a) goes back to the Act of 1798, 1 Stat. 580, 586, when excise taxes and customs duties were the main sources of federal revenue. Being general in scope, this section, as successively reenacted, was applicable to the first federal taxes on income from 1861 to 1871, and again in 1894; there were no separate provisions for punishing income tax evasions. See, e.g., the Act of 1861, 12 Stat. 292, 309; the Act of 1894, 28 Stat. 509, 553.

A different story begins with the income tax legislation that followed the passage of the Sixteenth Amendment. Section II of the Revenue Act of 1913, 38 Stat. 114, 166, contained its own criminal sanctions. Section II(F) proscribed the making of a false return with intent to evade the income tax, an act that would otherwise have been punishable under what was then § 3179 of the Revised Statutes of 1874, the immediate predecessor of § 3616(a). The offense would have been a misdemeanor under either statute. But § II(F) provided a maximum fine of $2,000, while § 3179 only permitted a fine of up to $1,000. It seems clear that § II(F) displaced § 3179. Such implied repeal, pro tanto, is further demonstrated by the fact that §§ 3167, 3172, 3173 and 3176 of the Revised Statutes, related provisions in the enforcement of the revenue laws, were specifically incorporated, as modified, into § II, but § 3179 was not. Nor was it incorporated by reference; § II(L) made applicable only those administrative and general tax provisions "not inconsistent with the provisions of this section," and § 3179 was obviously inconsistent with § II(F).

The Revenue Act of 1916, 39 Stat. 756, 775, and the Act of 1917, 40 Stat. 300, 325, offer further evidence that Congress withdrew the income tax from the reach of the general provisions of § 3179. Both of those Acts imposed income taxes, proscribed the making of false returns as a misdemeanor, and punished that offense more severely

http://supreme.justia.com/us/353/373/case.html

Gee no penalty for tax evasion which is like what.... most of criminal tax cases? Go figure. I sure as hell wish someone who knew what the hell they were talking about would explain all of this shit to me. Oh wait... that would include people in your age bracket. No wonder I never heard about this shit and had to learn it on my own.

So what size of central government do you think is ideal?

Whatever size it takes to eliminate monopoly and coercion.
 
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