The African Enlightenment and Liberal Ideals in 1500s

[PierzStyx]

Fake news rankings, and you are are cherry-picking one aspect of freedom and ignoring the fact that most of those either are Euro/Western or took their religious liberty ideas from the west.

Or, you know, built on their already present ideals. Indeed, most of the countries that were subject to Europe have the most trouble with Socialism, violence, and centralized state authority, the exact opposite of liberty.

 

[RJB]

The writer takes a few shots at Locke, some justified and some incorrect. The whole tone of trying to pull down men like Locke to try and lift up others is unfortunate, I hate when authors try such a tactic because it is pointless.

You tend to do that as well very heavily as you did in the thread about the genocide of the Greek Christians from Asia Minor.

I agree that all men yearn for freedom and there are beautiful places in the world outside of Europe. I also tend to believe Western Civilization based on Christianity (while not perfect in any way) has been the best. I also know that that isn't saying much.

True. Haiti imbibed too much from the European ideals of powerful centralized governments with the authority to regulate every aspect of human life. Haiti is a great example of teh legacy of European thought.

On the Island of Hispaniola this is a prime example of how Western civilization influences freedom. I would say The Dominican Republic imbibed in the European model much better than Haiti. On top of that The Dominican Republic tends to be more loyal to traditional Christianity while Haitians like to dabble in voodoo and other occult like practices.

This does not look like an imitation of European ideals BTW

Ah. This is more recognizable as Europe.

You keep asserting this but never provide any evidence. European countries have never been liberal, unless you're one of those who imagine that liberal = democratic. Which is a fallacy. The UK provides a great example of this; sure the king lost power but his power was merely transferred to Parliament which to this day rules with all the power of a monarch. There is a reason socialism and fascism found such fertile ground in Europe. They're both just continuations of the European ideal of government authority and centralized power.

Yet people still immigrate to these horribly tyrannical Western countries, but we don't emigrate to Saudi Arabia or Libya or Haiti or... . You should make it your life's work to warn people from other nations of how horrible we really are so they won't suffer the way we do.

 

[RJB]

Our religions definitely influence us and you don't hesitate to bring up issues of past failings of Christianity. One that sticks out with me was your claim that the genocide of the Greek Christians from Asia Minor was blow back due to their audacity to have lived there for over 3000 years without ever being invited.

I was wondering if your Church is influencing you some. I know that people of African descent were banned from the priesthood in the LDS as late as 1978. Is the Church now making strides to learn more about Africa and African philosophy? Also is there any work in progress that you know of to update The Book of Mormon in regards to the "curse of Cain?"

 

[Ender]

Our religions definitely influence us and you don't hesitate to bring up issues of past failings of Christianity. One that sticks out with me was your claim that the genocide of the Greek Christians from Asia Minor was blow back due to their audacity to have lived there for over 3000 years without ever being invited.

I was wondering if your Church is influencing you some. I know that people of African descent were banned from the priesthood in the LDS as late as 1978. Is the Church now making strides to learn more about Africa and African philosophy? Also is there any work in progress that you know of to update The Book of Mormon in regards to the "curse of Cain?"

Blacks were originally allowed the priesthood under Joseph Smith but much of the persecution of the Mormons had to do with their acceptance of blacks as equals. In Missouri you could legally kill a Mormon until 1976 (the Missouri governor in 1976 rescinded the 1838 "Extermination Order"). After the death of Smith, some who took over leadership stopped the blacks from priesthood to protect the members while getting them to a safe place. And, yes, some were prejudice, as in all religions.

Spencer W Kimbell restored the priesthood to blacks in 1978.

Official Declaration 2

The Book of Mormon teaches that “all are alike unto God,” including “black and white, bond and free, male and female” (2 Nephi 26:33). Throughout the history of the Church, people of every race and ethnicity in many countries have been baptized and have lived as faithful members of the Church. During Joseph Smith’s lifetime, a few black male members of the Church were ordained to the priesthood. Early in its history, Church leaders stopped conferring the priesthood on black males of African descent. Church records offer no clear insights into the origins of this practice. Church leaders believed that a revelation from God was needed to alter this practice and prayerfully sought guidance. The revelation came to Church President Spencer W. Kimball and was affirmed to other Church leaders in the Salt Lake Temple on June 1, 1978. The revelation removed all restrictions with regard to race that once applied to the priesthood.

 

[RJB]

Blacks were originally allowed the priesthood under Joseph Smith but much of the persecution of the Mormons had to do with their acceptance of blacks as equals. In Missouri you could legally kill a Mormon until 1976 (the Missouri governor in 1976 rescinded the 1838 "Extermination Order"). After the death of Smith, some who took over leadership stopped the blacks from priesthood to protect the members while getting them to a safe place. And, yes, some were prejudice, as in all religions.

Spencer W Kimbell restored the priesthood to blacks in 1978.

So it took Missouri (the Garden of Eden according to the LDS) until 1976 to become enlightened enough to lift the bounty on Mormons. (As a Missouri boy, I will say, "sorry about that.") Then it took another 2 years, until 1978, for the LDS to gain their enlightenment enough to allow blacks to be priest.

You are aware that orthodox Christian churches had that enlightenment at the time of Christ, right?

 

[RJB]

My Filipina sister-in-law laughs that we pride ourselves on freedom-- Seatbelt laws, etc. However the Philippines have their own issues of tyranny. Everyone does.

There are different theories of freedom.

For instance, Western and Far Eastern cultures tend to value property rights more than others. For example, in the Marines (Back in the 80s and 90s), I took leave on different tropical islands and basically lived on the beach for weeks at a time and I got along great with the locals. If a mango tree was ripe, people would just pick them. It didn't matter who "owned" it. Their culture didn't understand what many see as a fundamental building block of freedom. For those short stretches of time I truly felt free, although property rights as we know it were non-existent.

Then a European would buy a house and get mad when the locals ate the fruit on "their land." The locals would laugh when I said laughingly, "yankee go home." If you don't like the way the locals live (ie, takes your fruit), go somewhere else. I feel the same about someone who wants to live in a land under Sharia-- go live in a land that already has it. I prefer my own way of life.

ETA: I don't eat fruit on the property of others in the US. That's just not acceptable here. I tend to get along anywhere I go, because I respect the customs of others when I am in their land.

 

[r3volution 3.0]

Perhaps you should re-read Mises.

Ha

Equality of people from birth: https://mises.org/library/equality-and-inequality

Reason as Man's chief characteristic: https://mises.org/blog/mises-social-rationalist-pt-i-reason-and-origin-society

On Mises critiquing religion, here on religion's support of the State: https://mises.org/library/mises-debunks-religious-case-state

Sounds pretty on spot to me with what is in the OP, if you bothered to read it.

You might have noticed that I quoted the OP (because I read it).

Nevermind, I don't care.

...what a waste.

 

[Ender]

So it took Missouri (the Garden of Eden according to the LDS) until 1976 to become enlightened enough to lift the bounty on Mormons. (As a Missouri boy, I will say, "sorry about that.") Then it took another 2 years, until 1978, for the LDS to gain their enlightenment enough to allow blacks to be priest.

You are aware that orthodox Christian churches had that enlightenment at the time of Christ, right?

Are you aware that many "Christian" churches have persecuted blacks?

I am not saying that it was a Christian ideal to stop blacks from getting the priesthood- I am saying that the Mormons were in danger- many were killed, their property taken, families were slaughtered. This move was a form of protection. The Mormons were as much a captured people as the Indians- except the Indians know it and most Mormons do not.

 

[RJB]

Are you aware that many "Christian" churches have persecuted blacks?

Of course, men in charge of any institution are prone to waywardness. Do you put quotation marks around "Christian" when referring to Mormons? I have a feeling that you don't hold them to the same standard. Am I correct?

I am not saying that it was a Christian ideal to stop blacks from getting the priesthood- I am saying that the Mormons were in danger- many were killed, their property taken, families were slaughtered. This move was a form of protection. The Mormons were as much a captured people as the Indians- except the Indians know it and most Mormons do not.

So because of all this persecution, they were forced to exclude blacks from the priesthood until 1978!?!? Let me repeat that date, 1978.

Again any institution run by men has issues. My point isn't to bash Mormonism and I apologize to any Mormon if I offended. The reason I posted this:

Despite Pierzstyx's opening paragragh saying he doesn't like the bashing of Locke, that is basically what he does. As I mentioned he called the Greek Genocide by the Turkish Muslims, "blowback." He calls people he disagrees with liars, cowards, traitors, etc. He blames Haiti's mess on European ideals-- that's silly.

If you want to demonstrate freedom outside of a Western paradigm, show us it's beauty as I did in the post where I spoke of my visit to the South Pacific. Instead both you and him have a tendency to look for the specks in the eyes of others when there is one in your own. We all have them. As much as I say I prefer western societies, I wouldn't be on RPFs if I wasn't already aware that the west had its own tyranny.

 

[osan]

Interesting article. The writer takes a few shots at Locke, some justified and some incorrect. The whole tone of trying to pull down men like Locke to try and lift up others is unfortunate, I hate when authors try such a tactic because it is pointless.

The real value of the article though is how it helps demonstrates that liberal ideals have developed independently of one another on every continent and in just about every culture on the planet. Liberty is not a European ideal. It is the yearning of the human soul. As a result we find it and its ideals in every place humans are.

Full of of bias, vagaries, innuendo, false generalizations, poor writing, thinly veiled tone. Interesting characters tainted by author's corruptions.

I will try to say more later. In hospital waiting for Bibi to get out of surgery... Again.

ETA

OK, back from surgery. Bibi OK, but sore... of course.

Yacob's short treatise is fine, but adds nothing new to philosophy. There is nothing he wrote there that the Greeks or whomever hadn't written before.

The article is clearly a revisionist rant ineptly disguised as some weak pretense of discovery. The central thesis that the author only makes tacitly via innuendo, is that Africa has a deep and rich tradition of philosophy dedicated to human liberty. Nothing could be further from true.

 

[Ender]

Of course, men in charge of any institution are prone to waywardness. Do you put quotation marks around "Christian" when referring to Mormons? I have a feeling that you don't hold them to the same standard. Am I correct?

So because of all this persecution, they were forced to exclude blacks from the priesthood until 1978!?!? Let me repeat that date, 1978.

Again any institution run by men has issues. My point isn't to bash Mormonism and I apologize to any Mormon if I offended. The reason I posted this:

Despite Pierzstyx's opening paragragh saying he doesn't like the bashing of Locke, that is basically what he does. As I mentioned he called the Greek Genocide by the Turkish Muslims, "blowback." He calls people he disagrees with liars, cowards, traitors, etc. He blames Haiti's mess on European ideals-- that's silly.

If you want to demonstrate freedom outside of a Western paradigm, show us it's beauty as I did in the post where I spoke of my visit to the South Pacific. Instead both you and him have a tendency to look for the specks in the eyes of others when there is one in your own. We all have them. As much as I say I prefer western societies, I wouldn't be on RPFs if I wasn't already aware that the west had its own tyranny.

The quotations around Christians was because we are not behaving like Christians when we hate.

As far as Mormons go, my belief is that they are still in danger (many still hate them and compare them to Muslims) and that is one reason it took until 1978 to restore the order. Kimball had been praying about this daily & wanted it to happen.

As far as the "speck in the eye" comment- you were the one that brought up the Mormon thing- I was just adding some history- so let's call that even, shall we?

I like you, RJB, and enjoy many of your posts- we don't have to always agree to grow & learn from each other.

 

[PierzStyx]

The reason I posted this:

Despite Pierzstyx's opening paragragh saying he doesn't like the bashing of Locke, that is basically what he does. As I mentioned he called the Greek Genocide by the Turkish Muslims, "blowback." He calls people he disagrees with liars, cowards, traitors, etc. He blames Haiti's mess on European ideals-- that's silly.

If you want to demonstrate freedom outside of a Western paradigm, show us it's beauty as I did in the post where I spoke of my visit to the South Pacific. Instead both you and him have a tendency to look for the specks in the eyes of others when there is one in your own. We all have them. As much as I say I prefer western societies, I wouldn't be on RPFs if I wasn't already aware that the west had its own tyranny.

Not once do I bash on Locke. Just the opposite in fact. I hold to Locke's ideals about universal human rights and the evils of the State while most of you do not.

Nor did I say the Greek Genocide was nothing but "blowback." This is a simplification of my argument that the Greek Genocide has nothing to do with Islam as a religion and can be understood most correctly as part of an ongoing series of violence and retaliations that go farther back than either Christianity or Islam have even existed, at least as far back as the Greco-Persian Wars. It was asserted that Islam was evil because of the Greek Genocide and I pointed out that it is no more evil than what the Romans did in occupying Anatolia nor the many Byzantine wars waged to exterminate native populations for being political or religious threats. These acts of violence indeed have very little to do with the religions themselves, with being Muslim, Orthodox, Pagan, of "heretic," and more to do with the simmering hatreds created in different populations by thousands of years of warfare and occupation. In understanding this the concept of blowback is a big help a sit helps us see how retaliation only breeds more retaliation.

Haiti's problems are very much rooted in Europe. It inherited European statism and love of centralized power. It was created by people stolen from their homelands and shipped across the sea by Europeans to be worked to death by Europeans with no love of liberty or respect of human rights. To ignore the role of European actions and ideals in the mess that is Haiti is dishonest.

And yes, I have no problem with outing liars because they like to twist and simplify things to fit their biases and lie about the thoughts and opinions of others to fit their narrative. A spade is a spade.

As for Mormons denying black people the Priesthood, you're exactly right that it wasn't until 1978 that the ban laid down in 1847 (or thereabouts, the history is murky) was lifted. The Book of Mormon says nothing of a "curse of Cain" though. This is actually a concept that made its way into Mormonism from Protestantism as American Protestants converted to Mormonism and brought their "curse of Ham" idea with them. And if you study Mormon theology you'll discover that there actually isn't a doctrinal explanation for why blacks were denied the Priesthood. In Mormon theological currents you have ideas about Cain, Ham, heavenly unworthiness, racial inferiority, and more all mixed together and all offered as reasons that might explain the ban by various Mormons at various times. To this day there is no actual doctrine explaining why given and, thankfully, Mormonism has begun moving past the Protestant influence it has had in the past by officially denouncing all such past justifications as wrong.

That said, none of this is relevant to why I posted this article. Too many here believe this myth that Europe ever enacted the ideals of men like Locke and that Europe is or was some special bastion of liberty ideals unlike any other. This is false. These ideals and culture exists across the world.

 

[PierzStyx]

You tend to do that as well very heavily as you did in the thread about the genocide of the Greek Christians from Asia Minor.

I agree that all men yearn for freedom and there are beautiful places in the world outside of Europe. I also tend to believe Western Civilization based on Christianity (while not perfect in any way) has been the best. I also know that that isn't saying much.
On the Island of Hispaniola this is a prime example of how Western civilization influences freedom. I would say The Dominican Republic imbibed in the European model much better than Haiti. On top of that The Dominican Republic tends to be more loyal to traditional Christianity while Haitians like to dabble in voodoo and other occult like practices.

This does not look like an imitation of European ideals BTW

Ah. This is more recognizable as Europe.

Yet people still immigrate to these horribly tyrannical Western countries, but we don't emigrate to Saudi Arabia or Libya or Haiti or... . You should make it your life's work to warn people from other nations of how horrible we really are so they won't suffer the way we do.

Your pictures don't demonstrate much.

This is also Europe.

So is this

As well as this

Poverty exists everywhere. It is not an indicator of the greatness or superiority of a culture. Most of them it is more of an indicator of a lack of natural resources, as is mostly the case with Haiti. Poverty in Europe is especially bad because there are so many resources but Europe, following its long statist history, has chosen centralized economics over the free market. It literally eats up its prosperity before making it. If anything, Haiti's statism is following Europe's to a tee.

Most people care very little about freedom. People don't come to the US for political liberty. They come to make money. If Saudi Arabia was the richest country in the world you can be sure Americans would be flooding it too. Perhaps they will is America's economic policies don't change.

 

[PierzStyx]

Ha



You might have noticed that I quoted the OP (because I read it).

Nevermind, I don't care.

...what a waste.

You quoted teh opening paragraph and one other part. That isn't indicative of reading anything as much a sit is that you know how to hit CTRL + F.

 

[PierzStyx]

Are you aware that many "Christian" churches have persecuted blacks?

I am not saying that it was a Christian ideal to stop blacks from getting the priesthood- I am saying that the Mormons were in danger- many were killed, their property taken, families were slaughtered. This move was a form of protection. The Mormons were as much a captured people as the Indians- except the Indians know it and most Mormons do not.

Mormons are still a captured people. And they still don't know it. Nationalist indoctrination is a helluva drug.

 

[Superfluous Man]

European culture

What is European culture?

 

[Swordsmyth]

What is European culture?

What is Europe?

What is culture?

What is the definition of "is"?

 

[Ender]

Mormons are still a captured people. And they still don't know it. Nationalist indoctrination is a helluva drug.

Exactly.

The Brethren have been protecting them since before the War Between the States- but I believe that changes are in the wind.

 

[Superfluous Man]

What is Europe?

What is culture?

What is the definition of "is"?

Europe is a continent. Continents don't have cultures. The culture of Muslims living in Europe is just as legitimately a European culture as the culture of atheists living there is. And historically, the Muslims can claim stronger cultural ties to the histories of the various peoples who have populated Europe over the centuries than the atheists can.

 

[Swordsmyth]

Europe is a continent. Continents don't have cultures.

Continents have peoples and peoples have cultures.