Taking the Constitution Seriously

[TheTexan]

I won't say "whatever that means" so I'll just say "whatever those are"

At least my principles aren't based on a document that was drafted by people who thought slavery was ok

 

[PAF]

At least my principles aren't based on a document that was drafted by people who thought slavery was ok

I don't support that document either. I support the anti feds who opposed the document but had the foresight to stick the BoR in.

I won't say you should too, but maybe you should too. And for efficiency sake, retain the BoR, but scrap the rest.

 

[TheTexan]

I don't support that document either. I support the anti feds who opposed the document but had the foresight to stick the BoR in.

I was referring to the BoR specifically with my comment. The anti-feds were as pro-slavery as anyone else.

 

[Occam's Banana]

I don't support that document either. I support the anti feds who opposed the document but had the foresight to stick the BoR in.

The Bill of Rights was not the product of foresight; it was an afterthought. It was a crumb tossed to the anti-Federalists as a face-saving sop (or booby prize?) for losing.

Alexander Hamilton, as a Federalist who opposed the Bill of Rights, was the foresighted one. He warned the anti-Federalists that the BoR would just end up being regarded as a list of permissions granted to "the people", rather than as a list of restrictions imposed upon the federal government.

And he was absolutely 100% right - that is exactly what happened.

I won't say you should too, but maybe you should too. And for efficiency sake, retain the BoR, but scrap the rest.

Scrap it all - the BoR included (because Hamilton was right).

The only things you really need are:
(1) enforcement of the right of secession as a necessary element of (and a fundamental basis for) any legitimate system of governance [1], and
(2) an unqualified assertion of the right to keep and bear arms for the express and explicitly-stated purpose of forcibly deposing any government that tries to deny, reject, or prevent (1).

Once you have those two things, the rest - "free speech", the right to be secure in one's person and property, the various unspecified and "unenumerated" rights glossed over and hand-waved away by the 9th amendment, etc. - can take care of themselves. [2]



[1] The clear proclamation and unequivocal exaltation of the the right of secession in the Declaration of Independence is why the Declaration should be embraced, while the Constitution - including the "Bill of Rights" booby trap - should be rejected:

"[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of [Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem [best]."
​

[2] There should be no need for any "Bill of Rights"-style hall-monitor permission slips. (The swarms of officious bureaucrats sent hither to harass people and eat out their substance surely do love their neat & tidy little checklists, though, don't they?)

 

[PAF]

The Bill of Rights was not the product of foresight; it was an afterthought. It was a crumb tossed to the anti-Federalists as a face-saving sop (or booby prize?) for losing.

Alexander Hamilton - a Federalist who opposed the Bill of Rights - was the foresighted one. He warned the anti-Federalists that the BoR would just end up being regarded as a list of permissions granted to "the people", rather than as a list of restrictions imposed upon the federal government.

And he was absolutely 100% right - that is exactly what happened.



Scrap it all - the BoR included (because Hamilton was right).

The only things you really need are:
(1) enforcement of the right of secession as a necessary element of (and a fundamental basis for) any legitimate system of governance [1], and
(2) an unqualified assertion of the right to keep and bear arms for the express and explicitly-stated purpose of forcibly deposing any government that tries to deny, reject, or prevent (1).

Once you have those two things, the rest - "free speech", the right to be secure in one's person and property, the various unspecified and "unenumerated" rights glossed over and hand-waved away by the 9th amendment, etc. - can take care of themselves. [2]



[1] The clear proclamation and unequivocal exaltation of the the right of secession in the Declaration of Independence is why the Declaration should be embraced, while the Constitution - including the "Bill of Rights" booby trap - should be rejected:

​

"[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of [Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem [best]."​

​

[2] There should be no need for any "Bill of Rights"-style hall-monitor permission slips. (The swarms of officious bureaucrats sent hither to harass people and eat out their substance surely do love their neat & tidy little checklists, though, don't they?)

Shoulda coulda woulda though I agree.

The Bill of Rights: The Only Good Part of the Constitution | Mises Institute

The Bill of Rights turns 232 years old today. Adopted in 1791 as a consolation prize for the Anti-Federalists, it has been the most important part of American

mises.org

 

[Danke]

 

[nikcers]

The written rules are important but every society has unwritten rules that are sometimes as important and if not more important than the written rules.

 

[ClaytonB]

The written rules are important but every society has unwritten rules that are sometimes as important and if not more important than the written rules.

^^^ This is why the Constitution is such a big deal, despite all of its MANY flaws.

As bad as things have gotten since 1776, if we didn't have a Constitution they would have gotten there long before 1861 due to the people who think like this robotic neoCON, and there are many of them. For these tyrannical psychopaths, "the unwritten rules matter more than the written rules", "words are flexible", "it's all down to interpretation", "meaning is subjective", "it all just depends on your perspective", "the world is relative", "they're more like guidelines", and so on, and so forth. The whole point of a written charter is so that those who are binding themselves into the compact can go back to THE LETTER of what is written, and demand that all parties conform to THE LETTER AS WRITTEN, "unwritten rules" be damned. There is almost nothing in the Constitution that is really "up to interpretation", except as each branch may, of course, willingly cede powers they are allowed by the Constitution. What they clearly cannot do, is overstep the bright-line limitations of the Constitution, which they have done incessantly pretty much from 1789 itself.

About the only things "up to interpretation" in the Constitution are things like the colors of the drapery in the White House. Anything more important than that is CLEARLY spelled out in razor-exact language that even a high-schooler can quite easily understand. And this is no accident -- the Constitution wasn't written for SCOTUS. It was written BY We The People TO all 3 branches. It is a contract saying, "If you follow these rules, We The People promise not to abolish and liquidate you, and reinstitute new such Government as seems to us likely to secure our Safety and Happiness." That is what "WE THE PEOPLE, in order to establish a more perfect Union..." MEANS. The Constitution is like the covenant that God made with Moses; the individual persons, branches and departments comprising the US Government itself are like the chosen people; and the US Government has no higher court of appeal than We The People -- not the FBI, DoJ, SCOTUS, nobody. Just We The People. We are the party who formed the contract with them. If, like the petulant Israelites, they refuse to obey it, then they can and will be abolished and reconstituted on an entirely new foundation, as God wills it.

 

[nikcers]

^^^ This is why the Constitution is such a big deal, despite all of its MANY flaws.

As bad as things have gotten since 1776, if we didn't have a Constitution they would have gotten there long before 1861 due to the people who think like this robotic neoCON, and there are many of them. For these tyrannical psychopaths, "the unwritten rules matter more than the written rules", "words are flexible", "it's all down to interpretation", "meaning is subjective", "it all just depends on your perspective", "the world is relative", "they're more like guidelines", and so on, and so forth. The whole point of a written charter is so that those who are binding themselves into the compact can go back to THE LETTER of what is written, and demand that all parties conform to THE LETTER AS WRITTEN, "unwritten rules" be damned. There is almost nothing in the Constitution that is really "up to interpretation", except as each branch may, of course, willingly cede powers they are allowed by the Constitution. What they clearly cannot do, is overstep the bright-line limitations of the Constitution, which they have done incessantly pretty much from 1789 itself.

About the only things "up to interpretation" in the Constitution are things like the colors of the drapery in the White House. Anything more important than that is CLEARLY spelled out in razor-exact language that even a high-schooler can quite easily understand. And this is no accident -- the Constitution wasn't written for SCOTUS. It was written BY We The People TO all 3 branches. It is a contract saying, "If you follow these rules, We The People promise not to abolish and liquidate you, and reinstitute new such Government as seems to us likely to secure our Safety and Happiness." That is what "WE THE PEOPLE, in order to establish a more perfect Union..." MEANS. The Constitution is like the covenant that God made with Moses; the individual persons, branches and departments comprising the US Government itself are like the chosen people; and the US Government has no higher court of appeal than We The People -- not the FBI, DoJ, SCOTUS, nobody. Just We The People. We are the party who formed the contract with them. If, like the petulant Israelites, they refuse to obey it, then they can and will be abolished and reconstituted on an entirely new foundation, as God wills it.

The whole concept of unwritten rules is wrote into the idea of the constitution itself.

The framers of the constitution understood that there existed these things called natural rights that are not in the bill of rights but they certainly believed that they exist but didn't need to be written down.

Being a citizen of a nation allows you to have the rights and powers of being a citizen but it also comes with responsibility.

You have the natural right to oppose the nation called the United States but the United States therefore has the natural right to oppose you if you oppose them.

 

[Invisible Man]

At least my principles aren't based on a document that was drafted by people who thought slavery was ok

If you ever decide to write your principles down they will be.

 

[ClaytonB]

The whole concept of unwritten rules is wrote into the idea of the constitution itself.

The framers of the constitution understood that there existed these things called natural rights that are not in the bill of rights but they certainly believed that they exist but didn't need to be written down.

Being a citizen of a nation allows you to have the rights and powers of being a citizen but it also comes with responsibility.

You have the natural right to oppose the nation called the United States but the United States therefore has the natural right to oppose you if you oppose them.

Shoo, bot. I don't debate GPUs.

To clarify for lurkers -- in respect to the Constitution, there are NO "unwritten rules". The rights of We The People go without saying because we don't owe the US Government, which we created, an explanation for why we have imposed this and that restriction upon them. They can either choose to obey the restrictions placed upon them by the US Constitution, or they can choose to unexist. Those are the only two choices that the US Government has, in respect to the US Constitution, which is made clear by the Declaration as well as in the Preamble of the Constitution itself. "IN ORDER TO form a more perfect Union", meaning "for THIS purpose, and NOT for the petty political grifts of treacherous Americans audacious enough to set themselves up over their fellow citizens as petty tyrants by twisting the words of this Constitution." If the US Government has succeeded in so perverting the US Constitution that it is manifestly inchoate with the ends of a more perfect Union (which it obviously has), then We The People have, among our innumerable "unwritten rights", the power to ABOLISH and REPLACE the US Government, the reasons for which are clearly stated in the Declaration. None of this is complicated. You don't need a jurisdoctorate to understand any of this. Just basic common sense suffices. The Declaration and the Constitution -- like the Bible, on which they are modeled -- are common sense documents. ANYONE with basic reasoning skills can understand them.

 

[TheTexan]

If you ever decide to write your principles down they will be.

No you

 

[nikcers]

Shoo, bot. I don't debate GPUs.

To clarify for lurkers -- in respect to the Constitution, there are NO "unwritten rules". The rights of We The People go without saying because we don't owe the US Government, which we created, an explanation for why we have imposed this and that restriction upon them. They can either choose to obey the restrictions placed upon them by the US Constitution, or they can choose to unexist. Those are the only two choices that the US Government has, in respect to the US Constitution, which is made clear by the Declaration as well as in the Preamble of the Constitution itself. "IN ORDER TO form a more perfect Union", meaning "for THIS purpose, and NOT for the petty political grifts of treacherous Americans audacious enough to set themselves up over their fellow citizens as petty tyrants by twisting the words of this Constitution." If the US Government has succeeded in so perverting the US Constitution that it is manifestly inchoate with the ends of a more perfect Union (which it obviously has), then We The People have, among our innumerable "unwritten rights", the power to ABOLISH and REPLACE the US Government, the reasons for which are clearly stated in the Declaration. None of this is complicated. You don't need a jurisdoctorate to understand any of this. Just basic common sense suffices. The Declaration and the Constitution -- like the Bible, on which they are modeled -- are common sense documents. ANYONE with basic reasoning skills can understand them.

The declaration of independence has absolutely no power or authority in our country.

All it states very clearly is we are divorced from the British Empire and we no longer live under the king of Britain.

Interpretations beyond that have no connection to reality or how we run our government today. We are not bound to the declaration of independence in any way other than we very much certainly are in love with the idea of being an independent nation thats not ruled by foreign people.

 

[ClaytonB]

The declaration of independence has absolutely no power or authority in our country.

Says the GPU. The Declaration of Independence is the last link of the historical chain before the formation of the national government of the United States, being the first 13 States to form that Union, and the others who joined it since. The Declaration clearly spells out the reasons why We The People were forming a government, it explains why we have the natural right not only to form such government, but also to Abolish and Institute new such government whenever it becomes destructive of the ends for which it was formed -- in this case, the end of forming a more perfect Union, as well as the ends listed in the Declaration itself (protection of the rights to life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness, and so on).

And if we want to make it a mere question of power, We The People win on that front also, just as we did in 1776. There is no escaping the manacles of the Declaration and the Constitution... yes, the tyrants have had a good long run since at least 1861, and they have been almost completely unopposed. But temporary success in tyranny proves nothing about justice and law. If all 3 branches have begun to conspire against We The People, as it appears they have done since 9/11, this is not a win for them, it's just the 1789 government signing its own death-warrant. The reason for this is because the ultimate authority is God Almighty. He was there in 1776 when the Declaration was signed, He was there in 1789 when the Constitution was ratified, He was there after 9/11 when the crew of pirates and brigands called the Bush administration hijacked the US Government for hidden private interests. So if the tyrants want to make this a mere argument over Might Makes Right, then We The People win that argument hands down, because we have the wrecking-ball of the power of God, at least, the righteous remnant among us do. And that suffices, Matt. 21:21, John 14:13,14, etc.

All it states very clearly is we are divorced from the British Empire and we no longer live under the king of Britain.

Brilliant historical analysis, there, GPU.

Interpretations beyond that have no connection to reality or how we run our government today. We are not bound to the declaration of independence in any way other than we very much certainly are in love with the idea of being an independent nation thats not ruled by foreign people.

This is what happens when the CIA builds a GPU-powered propaganda-bot. You get verbal vomit like this. This is the quiet part that the DC plutocrats are smart enough never to say out loud, but a rack of GPUs in a Federal data-center somewhere (Tel Aviv?) have no shame and just squeeze the verbal turd right out there in full sight of everybody...

 

[nikcers]

Says the GPU. The Declaration of Independence is the last link of the historical chain before the formation of the national government of the United States, being the first 13 States to form that Union, and the others who joined it since. The Declaration clearly spells out the reasons why We The People were forming a government, it explains why we have the natural right not only to form such government, but also to Abolish and Institute new such government whenever it becomes destructive of the ends for which it was formed -- in this case, the end of forming a more perfect Union, as well as the ends listed in the Declaration itself (protection of the rights to life, liberty, property, pursuit of happiness, and so on).

And if we want to make it a mere question of power, We The People win on that front also, just as we did in 1776. There is no escaping the manacles of the Declaration and the Constitution... yes, the tyrants have had a good long run since at least 1861, and they have been almost completely unopposed. But temporary success in tyranny proves nothing about justice and law. If all 3 branches have begun to conspire against We The People, as it appears they have done since 9/11, this is not a win for them, it's just the 1789 government signing its own death-warrant. The reason for this is because the ultimate authority is God Almighty. He was there in 1776 when the Declaration was signed, He was there in 1789 when the Constitution was ratified, He was there after 9/11 when the crew of pirates and brigands called the Bush administration hijacked the US Government for hidden private interests. So if the tyrants want to make this a mere argument over Might Makes Right, then We The People win that argument hands down, because we have the wrecking-ball of the power of God, at least, the righteous remnant among us do. And that suffices, Matt. 21:21, John 14:13,14, etc.



Brilliant historical analysis, there, GPU.



This is what happens when the CIA builds a GPU-powered propaganda-bot. You get verbal vomit like this. This is the quiet part that the DC plutocrats are smart enough never to say out loud, but a rack of GPUs in a Federal data-center somewhere (Tel Aviv?) have no shame and just squeeze the verbal turd right out there in full sight of everybody...

My family was there when this government was created and we inherited it from our founding fathers.

Your right to overthrow my government that rules on my behalf certainly exists but my right to oppose you overthrowing my government also exists.

 

[ClaytonB]

My family was there when this government was created and we inherited it from our founding fathers.

Actual photo of nickers' family:

Your right to overthrow my government that rules on my behalf certainly exists but my right to oppose you overthrowing my government also exists.

I am not overthrowing anything. The US Government overthrew itself the moment it nullified the Constitution. We The People have always had the power to ABOLISH and REPLACE it. For 150+ years, we have not exercised this power. The time is counting down...

 

[nikcers]

Actual photo of nickers' family:

I am not overthrowing anything. The US Government overthrew itself the moment it nullified the Constitution. We The People have always had the power to ABOLISH and REPLACE it. For 150+ years, we have not exercised this power. The time is counting down...

We overthrow the government every time we hold elections joker.

 

[ClaytonB]

We overthrow the government every time we hold elections joker.

Back to bot-school, you posse-comitatus-violating mecha-Clown.

The US Government is the institution (people, lands, authorities, etc.) which was created by We The People (the first 13 States, plus the others who have joined later) through the process of adoption and ratification of the US Constitution. We The People brought this monster into the world, and we have always had the power to take it back out of it. This is the problem created when ALL THREE branches conspire together for tyranny, as they have manifestly done since 9/11 --- there is no longer any possibility of redress of grievances through institutional processes. So, the wager being made by the pirates who have infiltrated and commandeered the US Government is an existential wager... they will either disband, or the entire institution will be ripped up by its roots and hurled into the flames. God Almighty has more than enough power to deliver the faithful of this land who are praying for deliverance from the present oppression and tyranny, both civil and religious. If the tyrants will not alter course, then they are making their cataclysmic end inevitable because the only route they are leaving for God to answer the prayers of the faithful is by annihilating the pirated institution itself. That fate will be on their own heads, election-charades or no election-charades.