Sweden, Denmark and netherlands etc... socialism?

[constitutional]

Okay don't take this personally, but you don't know shit. anyway now seriously. I live in Belgium, study in the Netherlands. And yes it has it socialistic flavours but it isn't hard core socialism. We have stupid projects like letting elderly ride busses for free in certain cities or having the state paying for 7 euro's an hour for a maid (rest is to be paid by those who want their house to be cleaned)Or our healthcare program that works better then your semi-socialistic health care program. But there is almost as much diversity in workers pay as there is in the US (i guess). So we do have ambition and don't think ah well instead of becoming a brain surgeon i'll cut some peoples hair because it pays the same(no offence for people who cut others peoples hair, unless if you cut it without being asked then i want you to be offended)
But as for why scandinavian people are more happier. I guess less crime, no polluted environment, weighing less and i'm no expert but if it is like in belgium i would say more freedoms then in the US, like freedom to die, to have a baby (that's no freedom to live but i'm not asking for an argument), gay marriage, in netherlands usage of drugs, usage of alcohol since our sweet sixteens, more open minded view about religion (most people i know are atheists), legal prostitution the two main reasons why europeans tilt their head when looking at America is because 1) US is gun(nuts) (i understand that better now, since following ron paul then before but i must say i still don't want to trade on that issue although i start flip flopping from time to time) and 2) the born again christian groups which i believ e don't think evolution is real.
Oh and belgium is less socialistic then the netherlands. In belgium we get less money from the government to study at a university. In the Netherlands that's about EURO 250 a month for studying.

So why does socialism work in countries like Denmark and Sweden? You get paid to go to University, doesn't that speak of half people having no aspiration to reach higher?

 

[Moxxar]

I´m from the Netherlands, what do you want to know? That we pay 70% of our income in taxes? That for that we have a extremely managed healthcare system which is ok, I wouldn't say bad but I wouldn't say good either. It could be much more efficient if it was profit based private healthcare, but It isn't.

Some facts about my country:
Highest income tax bracket here is about 50%, middle is 43%, lowest (so the poorest people) pay 35%. Take in account that you get a lot of money from the government if you don't have a job, so there is little incentive to get a low paying job. (in some sectors it pays better not to have a job at all...) It's so screwed up.
In addition to income tax we pay Value added tax (we call it BTW) of about 19% on most items. It's less for food, either 6 or 12 percent, but still 19% for most items. Add to this tax on gasoline of 67% in total (tax + value added tax). Add to that tax on savings of 1,2% of total savings. Add to that local taxes like property tax and sewage tax of several thousands of euro's each year. Add to that the 35% extra tax on buying a car. Add to that inflation. Add to that the extra cost which things have because there are government regulations (like monopolies in the public transport sector and price controls on a cab ride to 'help cabdrivers', etc. etc.) Add to that the death tax of 58%. Add to that a tax of 35% on profits which companies make.

Well, you get the picture... I've probably forgotten a few as well. But for all these taxes we get several shoddy or OK public services. If you give back all the money to the people, they'll be able to buy a lot more services like education and healthcare, for a much better price, get much better quality, and keep much more money to actually enjoy life with.

Maybe this will persuade your friend.

 

[Flirple]

This is a tired myth that people always revert to when in a debate/conversation about free markets vs. socialism.

First it is crucial to emphasize that the last thing America has is free market medicine. Medical care sucks here because it is closer to socialism than it is to free markets.

Second is that yes the Scandinavian countries have many socialist domestic services health care, education, etc. but at the same time they are, in many ways, much more libertarian than America is because they have excellent non-protectionist free trade policies compared to us and most importantly they have non-interventionist foreign policies and don't squander their citizens' wealth on wars and large military budgets (by far the most destructive of all government wealth redistribution programs).

Yes their socialized programs are horrendous and don't work well. BUT, overall a country can get away with a lot of domestic socialism if they are smart enough to not destroy all their wealth on international socialism. Unfortunately, we are embracing central economic planning both domestically AND abroad.

I hate linking to the CATO Institute but here is a podcast dealing with exactly this issue that you should listen to to learn about the Scandinavian myth:
http://cato.everyzing.com/externalL...mmar_shouldscandinaviabeourmodel_20070417.mp3