Student Debt "Cancellation"

[Invisible Man]

Over time and latest.

OK. Then you're not comparing apples to apples. You're comparing many years of aid to Ukraine with an amount in money transfers to the poor in one single year. If you compare like time periods, the latter is many times greater than the former.

 

[Occam's Banana]

https://twitter.com/MikeKBerg/status/1563169865560920066

 

[ClaytonB]

https://twitter.com/MikeKBerg/status/1563169865560920066

This makes me really mad! It's only 6-9 months of regular money-printing from the Federal Reserve, which I'm perfectly OK with, but this makes me really mad because I've never met the yacht-class zillionaires that regular inflation goes to, but I have met some of these laptop-class, college-loafer slobs and they're just going to blow this cash on Starbux and Chanel handbags!! If you're going to rip off the plumber-class, at least have the decency and sophistication to blow the money on coke, hookers and super-yachts in Dubai, or something!! What is this world coming to?!

So mad right now!!!

 

[ClaytonB]

Trillions doesn't go to elites in corporate welfare. You know where trillions does go? Lower and middle class people. It is an unpopular and correct view that NO ONE has the guts to say. I post the chart constantly showing two-thirds of the budget is entitlement spending so I won't do it for a 200th time. I would cut corporate welfare first even though it is peanuts compared to individual spending just so there wouldn't be any whataboutism like Biden used. But make no mistake, public sector pensions, social security and Medicare, and government employee incomes are where the biggest bloat is at. Everything else oil subsidies, whatever you think Wall Street is getting, defense contractors, etc is peanuts.

I find student loan forgiveness to be an issue that is a hill to die. I would impeach Biden over this. This is blatantly buying votes.

This is the same superficial analysis that the quants in government push ... in other words, it's propaganda.

Let's pretend for a moment there is no money at all. People just keep doing exactly what they do today, but without any explicit consideration of the "dollars". (This is similar to the Evenly-Rotating Economy thought-experiment in Austrian theory, but tweaked for this specific discussion.) Where are the real goods and services going? That's the real question. Are the real goods and services going to "the masses"? Obviously not, by definition. That's what makes them "the masses". So, by some strange magic, there is trillions of dollars being redistributed by the State to large numbers of lower-middle class and poor, yet the middle-class and poor remain non-holders of real assets. "That's why we redistribute money to them!" is the kind of head-up-assery that is the reason we are a decade+ past the financial point-of-no-return.

To understand who is really benefiting and who is really losing, the redistribution of wealth has to be tracked over time, and in terms of real goods (real assets), not numerical money (ledger balances). And the picture that emerges is crystal-clear: the primary victims of socialist redistribution are also its most vehement proponents (the middle-class), and the primary beneficiaries are the international plutocrats (American wealth is not staying in the US, it is migrating from the US middle class to the global political class around the world). So, the Fed is the central headquarters of a global political operation that is plundering the American middle-class like LA rioters running off with TVs and VCRs, all while the American middle-class is hypnotically approving of the very riot and plunder to which they are being subjected because they (falsely) imagine that these trillions are "going to the lower-middle class and the poor." It's an utter farce of Kafka-esque proportions...

 

[fcreature]

So the the hill to die on is 500 billion to poor Americans

It's not going to poor Americans. Most of the benefit will be had by rich Americans. This is literally waitresses bailing out lawyers.

but not well over trillion to Ukraine and 800 billion in PPP. Got it.

Keep it up and it will be a Democrat party sweep in November.

I'm really not understanding your perspective on the politics of it here. It seems much more likely that campaigning on Ukraine funding, which the general population is in favor of and is an issue that is not motivating at all for the voters who disagree with it, is the losing strategy.

On the other hand, bailing out rich kids who party for 8 years while obtaining a gender studies degree is extremely motivating for voters who disagree with it, and something that people are really pissed about. It crosses party lines. It's a winning message.

 

[Occam's Banana]

Here's an exercise for the reader: Who, if anyone, would federal courts recognize as having "standing" to sue over this issue - and for what kind of "relief"? (At least with the vaccine mandates, those directly subject to the mandates were easily recognized as having standing, and relief consisted of their not having to take the jab.)

https://twitter.com/KenGardner11/status/1563216966084890628

 

[kahless]

It's not going to poor Americans. Most of the benefit will be had by rich Americans. This is literally waitresses bailing out lawyers.

I'm really not understanding your perspective on the politics of it here. It seems much more likely that campaigning on Ukraine funding, which the general population is in favor of and is an issue that is not motivating at all for the voters who disagree with it, is the losing strategy.

On the other hand, bailing out rich kids who party for 8 years while obtaining a gender studies degree is extremely motivating for voters who disagree with it, and something that people are really pissed about. It crosses party lines. It's a winning message.

I agree we should not be bailing out rich kids. Income of $125,000 single, $250,000 per couple has set the bar too low. Republicans would be better off rather than fighting it all, compromising down the income limits of less than 30k with means testing and allowing bankruptcy. The kids not working and can't declare bankruptcy is not worth the fight.

I know kids whose income is so low they could not afford food after wage garnishment and could not declare bankruptcy like other debts. There is another side to this.

I think allowing bankruptcy for the poor first and foremost R's should be speaking out about and Biden's role 17 years ago in that restriction. Going all in fighting it like an out of touch boomer is a recipe for failure come Nov. Makes for great rating and income for the grifters, but electorally a failed strategy.

 

[Invisible Man]

Going all in fighting it like an out of touch boomer is a recipe for failure come Nov. Makes for great rating and income for the grifters, but electorally a failed strategy.

If this is true, then it's a sign of how far and fast the Overton window has shifted to the left.

Prior to 2020 forgiving student loans was a fringe idea so far outside the mainstream that it wasn't taken seriously. Now I see people talking about it like most of its supporters are political centrists. And it's not just you.

This is disconcerting.

Hopefully, we start to see a drop-off in people every election who keep saying, "This is our last chance," as they realize our last chance came and went decades ago, if it ever existed at all.

 

[Krugminator2]

If this is true, then it's a sign of how far and fast the Overton window has shifted to the left.

Prior to 2020 forgiving student loans was a fringe idea so far outside the mainstream that it wasn't taken seriously. Now I see people talking about it like most of its supporters are political centrists. And it's not just you.

This is disconcerting.

Hopefully, we start to see a drop-off in people every election who keep saying, "This is our last chance," as they realize our last chance came and went decades ago, if it ever existed at all.

Wolfers is pretty far to the left. His wife/partner was a big part of the Obama administration. Here's what he said about in 2011:

[h=1]Forgive Student Loans? Worst Idea Ever. https://freakonomics.com/2011/09/forgive-student-loans-worst-idea-ever/[/h]Here is what Obama's Chair of his council of economic advisors said about it

It is the worst policy imaginable because there is no upside to the proposal unless you are a Democrat and want to see people bribed to vote Democrat. It's inflationary, will raise tuition, will encourage people to be reckless with the hope of a future bailout, doesn't create any more college educated people because it is forgiving the debt of people who've already gone to school, and it is targeting people who should be making more than the average person in the country.

The whataboutism on this is unreal. It might not be the worst policy in history in absolute dollar terms but it is pretty darn close in terms of immorality and bad economics.

 

[CaptUSA]

I agree we should not be bailing out rich kids. Income of $125,000 single, $250,000 per couple has set the bar too low. Republicans would be better off rather than fighting it all, compromising down the income limits of less than 30k with means testing and allowing bankruptcy. The kids not working and can't declare bankruptcy is not worth the fight.

I know kids whose income is so low they could not afford food after wage garnishment and could not declare bankruptcy like other debts. There is another side to this.

I think allowing bankruptcy for the poor first and foremost R's should be speaking out about and Biden's role 17 years ago in that restriction. Going all in fighting it like an out of touch boomer is a recipe for failure come Nov. Makes for great rating and income for the grifters, but electorally a failed strategy.

Yeah, I see it a different way entirely. I don't think republicans should be compromising on this AT ALL. The blue collar working class does NOT like this. Veterans who had to go to war to pay for college don't like this. Most people who paid off their student loans don't like this. Anyone with a moral compass doesn't like this. The coalition opposed to this is broad and deep.

Compromising on the details is just weak sauce that will NEVER bear any fruit. I'm all for putting bankruptcy on the table as a way to handle those truly in dire straits that have taken on loans they can't pay back... But any blanket "forgiveness" of loans CANNOT be allowed to stand.

It makes me wonder how much student debt YOU have that you want us to pay for. Maybe it's some family members?? Whatever it is, this is completely immoral and there are a much bigger majority that are truly sickened by this move. Republicans would be wise to capture their narrative and make it the dominant one soon.

 

[nobody's_hero]

Again, this is not about benefiting the students. This benefits the colleges that will continue to offer worthless degrees in 21st century pronoun usage and gender sensitivities, and the banks that will fund them.

It's time to cut programs. When you have useless degrees that only offer dead end career paths and students aren't able to pay back their loans, it's time for the colleges to examine their courses of study and find out what needs to be canned.

That is not going to happen with a bailout.

At the very least they should be able to declare bankruptcy. It's painful for everyone involved, but it is the only way to properly liquidate the debt and encourage colleges and banks to address the moral hazard.

 

[Krugminator2]

Well, he did it. Waving his baronial wand, President Biden on Wednesday canceled student debt for some 40 million borrowers on no authority but his own. This is easily the worst domestic decision of his Presidency and makes chumps of Congress and every American who repaid loans or didn’t go to college.

It’s important to appreciate that there has never been an executive action of this costly magnitude in peacetime. Not Mr. Obama’s immigration amnesties, not his Clean Power Plan, not Mr. Trump’s border-wall fund diversion. Nothing comes close to this half-trillion-dollar or more executive coup.

[FONT=var(--article-font-family)]Even Mr. Biden said in December 2020 it was “pretty questionable” whether he had authority to cancel debt this way. The Supreme Court recently underscored in [/FONT][West Virginia v. EPA[FONT=var(--article-font-family)]that Congress must provide clear authorization to agencies taking action on major questions. Canceling so much debt is beyond major to a mega-ultra-super question.

[/FONT][FONT=var(--article-font-family)]With the cancellation precedent, progressives will return to this vote-buying exercise every election year.[/FONT]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-ha...iden-debt-forgiveness-white-house-11661378933

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

If you had 3 children with college debt and this goes thru would you discourage your children from cancelling the debt and encourage them to repay every last cent?

 

[kahless]

Yeah, I see it a different way entirely. I don't think republicans should be compromising on this AT ALL. The blue collar working class does NOT like this. Veterans who had to go to war to pay for college don't like this. Most people who paid off their student loans don't like this. Anyone with a moral compass doesn't like this. The coalition opposed to this is broad and deep.

Compromising on the details is just weak sauce that will NEVER bear any fruit. I'm all for putting bankruptcy on the table as a way to handle those truly in dire straits that have taken on loans they can't pay back... But any blanket "forgiveness" of loans CANNOT be allowed to stand.

It makes me wonder how much student debt YOU have that you want us to pay for. Maybe it's some family members?? Whatever it is, this is completely immoral and there are a much bigger majority that are truly sickened by this move. Republicans would be wise to capture their narrative and make it the dominant one soon.

Well that was a low blow. No, I had to work to pay for going to college at night something like almost 40 years ago. I am old. LOL.

Your immorality of character is showing. I described people that could not afford food that had their wages garnished for student loan debt. Yet you are fine with that despite that for every other debt you can declare bankruptcy. I also described compromise to pick your battles saying now for the 3rd time in this thread warning about Republican losses in November if the right gets too retarded in their fight about it like you are now with false accusations and dis-compassionate behavior to the destitute. This all despite that I was pretty clear I do not think all people deserve to have it forgiven and the narrow category for compromise.

It is moronic to ask the destitute and street people to pay back college debt, that is what I mean by means testing.

Behaving like a bunch of elitist asses is a sure fire way to lose elections.

 

[oyarde]

If you had 3 children with college debt and this goes thru would you discourage your children from cancelling the debt and encourage them to repay every last cent?

I never allowed my children or grand children to borrow from govt.Everything was pay as we go but ya I wouldnt let them welch

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

I never allowed my children or grand children to borrow from govt.Everything was pay as we go but ya I wouldnt let them welch

Pretty hard to pay as you go when some of these colleges cost $100k per year or more.

 

[oyarde]

Pretty hard to pay as you go when some of these colleges cost $100k per year or more.

That is true . I never pd for any of my own . It was all scholorship or employer pd, I only retired maybe 7 yrs ago , around here there were still employers that pd then , I imagine still are . I'd say thats what kids should be looking for first .

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

That is true . I never pd for any of my own . It was all scholorship or employee pd, I only retired maybe 7 yrs ago , around here there were still employers that pd then , I imagine still are . I'd say thats what kids should be looking for first .

Employers won't hire without the degree. Scholarships are right out of HS and not going to cover the cost.

 

[oyarde]

Employers won't hire without the degree. Scholarships are right out of HS and not going to cover the cost.

Guess if thats what they want they'll need to borrow it and pay it back , Not my thing personally. I never even owed that on a house. Never felt enough faith in mankind to think I needed to be in debt for some education .

 

[GlennwaldSnowdenAssanged]

Guess if thats what they want they'll need to borrow it and pay it back , Not my thing personally. I never even owed that on a house. Never felt enough faith in mankind to think I needed to be in debt for some education .

Kids leaving HS acting like they know what they want to do for the rest of their life and having anxiety because they have to go to a certain school because that is their dream.