Stick a Fork in the Daily Paul ... it's done.

Seems to me the site was his property. If he wanted to take it down, that's his choice. Somehow I'm not surprised that there are people here who are taking issue with the free exercise of someone's property rights. And that in itself is a sad commentary.

The idea that criticizing how one uses one's property equates to wanting to restrict one's right to use it is just as perverse - and based on the same confusion - as the left's idea that endorsing property rights means endorsing how people choose to exercise them. That this confusion is so pervasive (I see it all the time in precisely this context - talking about the future of the DP) is a sad commentary.
 
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The idea that criticizing how one uses one's property equates to wanting to restrict one's right to use it is just as perverse - and based on the same confusion - as the left's idea that endorsing property rights means endorsing how people choose to exercise them. That this confusion is so pervasive (I see it all the time in precisely this context - talking about the future of the DP) is a sad commentary.

I didn't equate anything. But now that you mention it, bitching and moaning about the free exercise of property rights seems rather pointless and a bit contradictory if it's only for the sake of bitching and moaning about the free exercise of property rights, particularly coming from a community that ostensibly holds property rights, and the free exercise thereof, in high regard. If there is any confusion here, it would seem to revolve around that contradictory thinking.
 
I didn't equate anything. But now that you mention it, bitching and moaning about the free exercise of property rights seems rather pointless and a bit contradictory if it's only for the sake of bitching and moaning about the free exercise of property rights, particularly coming from a community that ostensibly holds property rights, and the free exercise thereof, in high regard. If there is any confusion here, it would seem to revolve around that contradictory thinking.

Does criticizing how someone uses his property violate his property rights? No, therefore there is no contradiction.
 
Does criticizing how someone uses his property violate his property rights? No, therefore there is no contradiction.

To pass criticism is generally to pass judgment, and suggest some kind of wrongness.

I think that's extremely fucked up.

Seems to me like a passing of judgment and an allegation of wrongness.

So, if you're not suggesting that he's wrong to freely exercise his property rights, what is the point in criticizing him about the free exercise of his property rights, and characterizing that use as "extremely fucked up?"

Or is this just unmitigated hyperbole because his use of his own property doesn't align with your own ends?

Why are you even looking to pass judgment on how another person uses their property at all, so long as their use of property is not a violation of anothers property?
 
As I said, you've (unwittingly I suppose) adopted the left's understanding of tolerance.

Tolerance requies that I not beat Nystrom over the head to force him to do as I would like with the DP.

It does not require me to accept his behavior or to refrain from criticizing it.

To pass criticism is generally to pass judgment, and suggest some kind of wrongness.

That's right.

Seems to me like a passing of judgment and an allegation of wrongness.

It is.

So, if you're not suggesting that he's wrong to freely exercise his property rights,

Yes, I'm criticizing the way in which he's exercising his property rights.

what is the point in criticizing him about the free exercise of his property rights, and characterizing that use as "extremely fucked up?"

In general, the purpose of criticizing someone's behavior is to change it, or at least to persuade others not to imitate said behavior. In this case, I have no expectation whatsoever of the former, so my purpose I suppose would be the latter - along with just complaining for the sake of getting it off my chest, commiserating with others of like mind, etc.

Or is this just unmitigated hyperbole because his use of his own property doesn't align with your own ends?

Right, his use of his own property does not serve my interests (I'm interested in the success of the liberty movement), hence I'm objecting.

Why are you even looking to pass judgment on how another person uses their property at all, so long as their use of property is not a violation of anothers property?

Your problem is the unstated premise of this question: i.e. one should not criticize the behavior of others so long as they aren't violating anyone's property rights. This is, as I keep saying, a perverse and decidedly unlibertarian idea of tolerance. Do you object to consumer boycotts of businesses? Do you object to social ostracism? Do you object to a man peacefully preaching on the street corner about the immorality of X, Y, or Z non-aggressive behavior?
 
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Right, his use of his own property does not serve my interests (I'm interested in the success of the liberty movement), hence I'm objecting.

I suspected as much. You object in the name of the liberty movement, too. How droll.

This goes back to my initial point about ostensibly "libertarian" attitudes finding the free exercise of property rights objectionable. And on the grounds that it doesn't suit your arbitrarily desired ends, no less, as if to suggest your way is the only way, and your ends have any relevance with his use of his own property that truly doesn't concern you in any way, shape, or form.

I'm using property now that you might determine to be at odds with your ends. Is that objectionable, too? I mean, since you've been self-appointed as the arbiter of what use of property does and does not align with the success of the liberty movement, please, tell us more about what you determine to be acceptable and objectionable uses of our own property.

It seems to me yours is the attitude and mentality that gives birth to the many unjust laws and regulations that impede the free exercise of property rights.
 
So, it's wrong to criticize the non-aggressive behavior of others....

Q1: Is my behavior (i.e. criticizing Nystrom) non-aggressive?

If so...

Q2: Are you criticizing my behavior?

If so...

...doesn't that mean your behavior is wrong, by your own standard?

popcorn.gif~c200


...you see, that's the thing with the leftist idea of tolerance. Among other problems, it's self-contradictory: "intolerant of intolerance."
 
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I suspected as much. You object in the name of the liberty movement, too. How droll.

I'm using property now that you might determine to be at odds with your ends. Is that objectionable, too? I mean, since you've been self-appointed as the arbiter of what use of property does and does not align with the success of the liberty movement, please, tell us more about what you determine to be acceptable and objectionable uses of our own property.
:rolleyes:.

notice any contradictions?
 
Off topic, anyone seen the new movie "Good Kill" with Ethan Hawke yet? It's about an Air Force drone pilot questioning the ethics of his job, based on a true story. Half way through it, pretty good so far.
 
Off topic, anyone seen the new movie "Good Kill" with Ethan Hawke yet? It's about an Air Force drone pilot questioning the ethics of his job, based on a true story. Half way through it, pretty good so far.

I like Ethan Hawke. I'll look it up on Roku and watch it tonight, and let you know what I think.
 
I fear that you are correct here. (and very well said I might add. :))

however it came about, carrying the light of Liberty has fallen to us, in and at this time. the same technology that has brought us together, can also be used to quash dissent and cement the propaganda.

it is my belief that the founders gave us the tools , within the still intact basic structure. to turn this thing around.
the phrases "Democratic Republic" as well as "Representative Republic" are meaningless. without a "Rule of Law" that is ONLY applicable to the Fedgov and the states.

it needs to be clearly understood that our original Rule of Law (the Constitution) does NOT apply to the people. it is a contract between the states and the fedgov.

it was designed to protect the "rights" that Man is born with. NOT create them.
what is needed is an architectural schematic (perhaps a flowchart) of the founders intent and methodology to stymie the statists.

thoughts?

My thought are that I would support such a movement even though I know that eventually (if not continued to it's logical conclusion which is
anarchy) it's certain to again degrade into the monster it's become. If it's used as a tool to get people heading in the direction of true
liberty (anarchy) then we have a chance. Certainly I would support that step in the direction of liberty...
 
So, it's wrong to criticize the non-aggressive behavior of others....

Q1: Is my behavior (i.e. criticizing Nystrom) non-aggressive?

If so...

Q2: Are you criticizing my behavior?

If so...

...doesn't that mean your behavior is wrong, by your own standard?

popcorn.gif~c200


...you see, that's the thing with the leftist idea of tolerance. Among other problems, it's self-contradictory: "intolerant of intolerance."

Boom goes the dynamite.
 
Nystrom Says: "Where is the Jimmy Carter of the 21st Century, the President who's not going to fire a bullet or drop a bomb? Where is that guy? That is the guy I want to vote for. I don't care about the rest. I don't care what his last name is or what party he comes from. That's the guy I'll vote for."

....so there's that.




True, one can be a libertarian and not support Rand. I think that makes one a foolish libertarian, but a libertarian nonetheless.

But supporting someone like Carter over Rand is another matter altogether.



It's a platform for libertarian activism that will be difficult/impossible to replace.

The whole "well just go start your own DailyRand or sumptin" idea is wide of the mark. It's not the DP's software or even it's accumulated content which is at stake. It's the user community. It took years and years to bring all those people together. Now they're going to scatter to the wind. I could go build a DP clone but it doesn't matter if the user base doesn't transfer over. Some would, but most wouldn't just out of inertia.

= major and totally unncessary loss for the liberty movement - unforced error

And you have to think beyond Rand as well. Even if you hate Rand, might you not want to keep the DP alive for other, future endeavors? Apparently not.

....but, anyway, this is all just pissing into the wind. Nystrom isn't going to change his mind. There's nothing to be done.


Why will it be difficult to replace? Frankly I thought it was a horrible forum to navigate. I can't speak to the activism that came out of there because I didn't go there much. Frankly there's not all that much activism here anymore either. I'm not sure posting our opinions online is really activism anyway or just chest thumping. What exactly made DP a hotbed of activism and define activism as it related to that place versus this place, for example.
 
Only if you don't want to advance the cause of liberty .

And make you well-off financially and politically connected? No thanks. You can and friends can do that on your own TYVM.

Got your "strategic alliance" with the Bush campaign set-up yet? You want me to ring doorbells for Rand so he will eventually endorse Bush so you can get some cushy job with the RNC? again, no thanks.
 
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I agree with Nystrom and some who have posted here, that it CAN be replaced, but it would come down to one person or a couple of people's choice to act. The key factor is if someone is willing to put in the time more than anything to make it successful with no (or very limited) financial or other benefit to themselves, but instead most likely at huge personal cost.

What exactly made DP a hotbed of activism and define activism as it related to that place versus this place, for example.

I don't want to interrupt your exchange, however do want to attempt to answer this question, because I have a perspective on what the answer might be in regards to DPs success having worked professionally for a number fortune 50 companies developing websites, industry recognized marketing and ad firms, and also having built a number of Ron Paul grassroots networking websites personally in 08' and 12', which included two money bomb events that required working with other RP sites including DP.

Analyzing the differences between a number of sites I wouldn't necessarily classify DP as a hotbed of activism, I would describe it more (in most cases) as a source of information for drive-by supporters of Ron Paul and the liberty movement.

What do I mean by that? Although the outside perception of your typical Ron Paul supporter in 2008/2012 was the very passionate and active person leaving the computer and going out doing things in their local community whether it was getting signatures on petitions for Ron Paul to be on the local state ballots, going door to door doing voter issue identification, sign-waving, going to meetup meetings, joining local GOP, becoming a delegate, traveling to early states to hand out slim-jims, etc., etc. The truth is the percentage that are considered actual activists vs. general supporters of a candidate vs. individuals that will vote for the candidate is extremely small, most likely less than one percent are actual activists as traditionally defined.

Who are these other people then that like Ron Paul, but that don't hang out on message boards, or don't take an active part in voicing political opinion or being more involved in the political process? They are people that live their lives going to work, taking care of their kids and having interests and participating in activities beyond politics, the limit to their involvement only comes every few years when they are expected to cast a vote. At most perhaps they (maybe 5-10 percent if they are really inspired) will donate to a candidate by buying a poster, tshirt, or perhaps even a lawn sign, maybe, and there will be a few that will even do a straight up donation to the candidate expecting nothing in return other than the hope that their money will be put to good use in order for the candidate to win. That's it, that is the extent of their participation and they will walk away feeling good with themselves that they were part of something that will either stave off disaster for another four years or perhaps change the direction of the country for the better.

Now comes the question, how do some of these people that aren't true activists formulate their opinions, what sources of information do they use when major topics of discussion come up in the news that become water cooler discussion? This is where DP comes into play, these people will want to find alternate opinions regarding specific topics that match their thinking in regards to a number of different issues that is important to them. They will want to perhaps watch a video or two or read a couple of articles and then leave the site, that will be the extent of their interaction never creating an account or wanting to invest the time to communicate on a message board with others that maybe like-minded. They are just there for information that perhaps they can take back to their families and friends, or the water cooler, or at the very least some talking points they can use to shout back at their TV when flipping through the channels and a MSM talking head aggravates them about an issue they have interest in.

So with all that said lets consider what the actual value of DP was compared to perhaps RPF or other sites in general. From personal experience in 08' and 12' these would be the conclusions I would make based on observations although I would imagine the owners of the sites would have the best perspective on these;

1. DP in general had more traffic on avg than RPF (you can go to a number of different metric websites to compare)
2. RPF had more activists that brainstormed new ideas and coordinated efforts beyond traditional campaign efforts; home of the MBs, organizing and coordinating; phone-banking, transporting volunteers to early states, events such as marches and rallies, micro-sites developed by others in support of the candidate, brainstorming how best to promote all of the above, the list goes on.
3. DP was a source more likely to successful financially fund individual efforts vs. RPF, although not an absolute in all cases in previous campaigns I did notice perhaps because it came down to a simple numbers game if someone needed help to get a grassroots project off the ground one had better luck getting donations from members at DP than RPF, this maybe due to a number of different reasons one that maybe the most basic is that RPF members on avg were more busy trying to get their own projects off the ground while DP members were more support as opposed to being pro-active, again this is a generalization perhaps warranted perhaps not, just an observation.
4. RPF had more volunteers willing to help others beyond financial support but instead invest time in others project to help them be successful, where DP may have had the money RPF had the users that were willing to invest the time.
5. DP news distribution had a wider and louder microphone in a shorter span of time. Whereas large projects are formulated on RPF that tend to have huge influence on the grassroots when they are successful over a longer period of time, DP because of the traffic and the traditional format they used from the start, being more a blog than a message board allowed for information or promotion news to travel to a wide audience in a shorter period of time. Here is an example currently there is a MB video created for April 7th that although we can appreciate the time in putting this together has not received more than 500 views (at the time of this writing) although it has been bumped on RPF a few times and posted on the front page. I would imagine if instead it was posted on the DP front page the views would easily be much more (by factors) than it currently has and would considerably help distribution, this was the case in 08', in 12' and I'd imagine would still be the case even though in general traffic isn't anywhere near the height it would be in the fall leading up to the primaries.

Anyway I could sit here and write all day about this stuff, but should go and eat lunch. The main point I want to make is DP did have value although as has been said it can be replaced, it's just a question of can and will someone do it to support Rand and how much time will they be willing to invest in a project that would certainly require a lot of work. Not just in setting up a site, but more importantly everything that goes along with that to make it successful with very little reward beyond the personal satisfaction that they helped to accomplish something all the while weathering personal attacks from others that they would have at one time considered friends and fellow members of the liberty movement, or in other words as has been said "no good deed goes unpunished".
 
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I could see him having issues with moderation if he keeps the site running as-is. They had issues in 2012 after the primaries were over. It is going to happen here, too, I do not envy the moderators here.

I started with my efforts to test and filter covert, cognitive infiltration at the DP. I was very up front and posted an explanation about what I was doing in nystroms "guidelines" thread.

My efforts saw more attack in a short period of time there than I've seen since. At the same time I actually had more sincere Americans overtly posting their acceptance of the purpose of free speech there than anywhere since.

I was banned immediately following that. My post explaining what I was doing in the guidelines thread was removed. My threads were heavily edited to reduce the obvious exposures of agents that I managed. In all, the site looked like a contract cognitive infiltration forum.

The day after being banned I tried registering at two other forums. One was city-dataforum.com, the other I forget what it was. I was automatically banned from both before even posting.

This provides some evidence the ere is a very good chance there is a network of forums involved with providing support for cognitive infiltration.

I do not believe this forum is that way. I do know there are some ties, from nystrom to this forum. I urge admins and mods here to separate and examine closely what I am doing and how I am doing it. Consult with Ron Paul directly, if possible, to provide a more experienced human basis of understanding as well as position upon natural law in evaluating this message.

Ron Paul is a good man and sincere American. Unfortunately influence upon him and his son limit support for them because of some of their positions.

Some of my work here to provide understanding of serious events that shape our political world as well as expose covert manipulation of Americans here.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showth...(split-thread)&p=5831218&posted=1#post5831218

And, a more direct approach at unity or restoration of constitutional government.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471555-A-lawful-and-peaceful-revolution
 
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