States Ban Smoking With Children In Car

You keep going back and forth. First you told me that you couldn't lump this under child abuse laws, because police can't use discretion that way. When I bring up the absurdity of pulling someone over for "smoking in a vehicle" that's a convertible, or where the windows are all rolled down, or where the "child" is someone in their late teens... you tell me the police can use discretion. You really need to make up your mind on that.

I dont know how to be anymore clear for you.. under a current broad vague law of 'child endangerment' chances are it would not be enforced as it would be thrown out in most court cases. As for your convertible car argument you keep holding onto, put in the law terms that outline a closed confined space. (any vehicle with the windows rolled up) There, that protects smokers from being harassed in their convertible with babies in the back seat - because that scenario is SOOOO common!

You're going to go after active smoking, but not all the residue that smoking leaves behind? How selective of you! What if I told you that "third hand" smoke of this kind is harmful, particularly to babies?

Well now, dont you think cracking down on second hand smoke inside of cars with kids just might reduce the presence third hand residues?? Hmmm!

Oopsie! Like I said earlier, it appears there's a serious threat here. Time to prohibit smokers from having any contact with children, or places where children might eat/play/reside, don't you think?

Yes. Unless you think a smoking section inside a McDonalds play land is a good thing. I can see it now. "Hey man, don't be infringin on my liberties and smoker rights man!" :rolleyes:

bold is mine
 
Again, what problem do you have with self-government? Why is it okay for a local group of bureaucrats to make decisions for you but not one further away? Both are collectivistic in nature.

You may want to think about what you're saying when you keep advocating voting. Mob rule has never worked in history. Here's a video explaining exactly why voting is a horrible idea:

I have no problem with self-government, quit assuming I do. I have said on your own property you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you harm none. That is self government taken to a maximum.

Only on public property may people decide what is allowable and what isn't. It is a pretty simply concept. As I already compared, it is like stock ownership in a company. The stockholders vote on certain things and the winning vote item is what happens. It is owned by all stock holders. A city is essentially where it is owned by all residents and thus they vote on what they want. If you dislike it, sell your share (move), or convince people to vote for your preferred items.

As for the youtube, if you want to comment further then comment in your post, I am not a fan of youtube links in forums.
 
Everything a normal guy in the 50s liked and didn't like has been inverted.
 
bold is mine

Yes. So that I can't quote it without a whole mess of annoying backflips and contortions, I suppose, but that's your right.

I dont know how to be anymore clear for you.. under a current broad vague law of 'child endangerment' chances are it would not be enforced as it would be thrown out in most court cases. As for your convertible car argument you keep holding onto, put in the law terms that outline a closed confined space. (any vehicle with the windows rolled up) There, that protects smokers from being harassed in their convertible with babies in the back seat - because that scenario is SOOOO common!

I don't know how it can be any clearer for you. Under the current child abuse/endangerment laws, you can make a case for whatever's actually endangering the child. Does it occur to you that many of the cases would be thrown out of court because there isn't demonstrable or even probable harm? If so, then why make a law?

Okay, good. Now we're in a "closed confined space." That would be any room of any house, or a building, or any number of other areas in addition to a vehicle. If you further define "confined" as being of a certain cubic footage, you get closer to isolating the problem. If you define "child" you're getting closer to the mark you wanted to hit. Of course, none of this actually addresses the problem itself. How does that escape you? If your problem is that smoking causes the air to be unsafe to breathe, then why not measure the air? If it's such a hazard, wouldn't pulling over the vehicle and measuring the air quality be a better measure of who should get a ticket or be arrested? This would quantify the hazard far better than simply seeing someone with a cigarette in their hand, but instead you're gunning for the latter.

So far we've reworded the law entirely to define a closed, confined space; defined how confined one has to be; defined how closed something has to be, of course (vehicles aren't actually closed spaces, otherwise we'd suffocate on long trips); and defined what constitutes a child for the purposes of this law. None of it actually measures health of the air in the vehicle, or the impact of the smoke on the child (all cigarettes are not created equal), but who cares about that? It's only the stated intent of the entire exercise.

Well now, dont you think cracking down on second hand smoke inside of cars with kids just might reduce the presence third hand residues?? Hmmm!

Not really. The two have zero to do with one another. Third-hand smoke, as indicated in the article, is present in things smokers have owned or come into contact with. The person who owned that used car before you bought it and put your baby in the back? Chain smoker. The guy who rented the apartment before you? Cigar afficionado. In order to curb third-hand smoke, you would need to regulate pretty much everything that involves a smoker. Someone not smoking while their kids are in the car, but smoking just before they are, is not any safer than the activity we've been discussing. The difference is that the former activity would be legal, while undertaking the same activity a moment later in the same confines would be illegal, despite the danger of both environments.

Yes. Unless you think a smoking section inside a McDonalds play land is a good thing. I can see it now. "Hey man, don't be infringin on my liberties and smoker rights man!"

If McDonald's wants to put up a smoking section, they very well should be able to. Parents can then decide whether or not they want their children subject to such terrible conditions. Of course, worrying about whether or not your kids are breathing in some smoke while they are inhaling their Happy Meals is a bit silly. One is absolutely full of carcinogens and life-threatening ingredients, setting a terrible example and endangering the child's health if it becomes a habit. It ain't the smoke.
 
this needs more love imo.

seriously. Whats worse, letting your kid inhale second hand smoke in a car or letting them eat McDonalds french fries 5 days a week or more etc? ???

Should there be a law prohibiting poor diets for kids? Laws prohibiting kids from eating deep fat fried foods, bacon, eating too much sugar? If your kids BMI says he is overweight you get slapped with a fine? Kid has bad cholesterol? Oops, looks like a fine for you.

I'm not a doctor but I would guess that what a lot of parents feed their kids is worse than 2nd hand smoke. When you see a family of 5 who are all obese feeding their kids McDonalds and pizza all week its pretty sick imo.

Are you going to make the argument that since these kids cannot provide food for themselves and essentially don't have a choice in what they eat the state should intervene to make sure their parents are not risking the children's health with extremely poor diets?

Or how about instead of giving up the freedom to parent the way we see fit, we just accept the fact that you can't legislate morality or good parenting.

Thanks for the lovin' Wesker! You've captured the point I was trying to make perfectly.
 
I don't know how it can be any clearer for you. Under the current child abuse/endangerment laws, you can make a case for whatever's actually endangering the child. Does it occur to you that many of the cases would be thrown out of court because there isn't demonstrable or even probable harm? If so, then why make a law?
Because assuming 2nd and 3rd hand smoke is harmful, a particular law would make easy to specifically apply, instead of trying to cite someone under a broad, vague charge which in reality would not hold up.

Okay, good. Now we're in a "closed confined space." That would be any room of any house, or a building, or any number of other areas in addition to a vehicle. If you further define "confined" as being of a certain cubic footage, you get closer to isolating the problem. If you define "child" you're getting closer to the mark you wanted to hit. Of course, none of this actually addresses the problem itself. How does that escape you? If your problem is that smoking causes the air to be unsafe to breathe, then why not measure the air? If it's such a hazard, wouldn't pulling over the vehicle and measuring the air quality be a better measure of who should get a ticket or be arrested? This would quantify the hazard far better than simply seeing someone with a cigarette in their hand, but instead you're gunning for the latter.

We are talking about enclosed VEHICLES that travel on public property. You keep adding in absurd, unrelated situations to try and bolster your weak argument that a said law will lead to further laws - sort of like using marijuana leads to injecting heroin OR like "what if I'm camping in a tent and little campfire smoke get in there and uh my kid coughs AHHH POLICE STATE!!!!11111" " No officer the definition of tent is.......!!"

So far we've reworded the law entirely to define a closed, confined space; defined how confined one has to be; defined how closed something has to be, of course (vehicles aren't actually closed spaces, otherwise we'd suffocate on long trips); and defined what constitutes a child for the purposes of this law. None of it actually measures health of the air in the vehicle, or the impact of the smoke on the child (all cigarettes are not created equal), but who cares about that? It's only the stated intent of the entire exercise.

child = 18yrs or under
confined vehicle space = windows up and YES the TOP on. :rolleyes: 6 sides: top bottom left right front back

How that? good lord

Not really. The two have zero to do with one another.
So 2nd and 3rd hand smoke have ZERO to do with one another? We might as well end this discussion now, as you refuse to acknowledge any sort of reality. Carry on with your obfuscation.
 
Thank goodness we're going to protect 17-year-olds from second-hand smoke (even those who already smoke), but leave babies exposed to third-hand smoke. This law is sure to do precisely what it's supposed to.

"Officer, I had my window cracked, you just couldn't see it."

"Oh."

~Case dismissed~ Vehicle was not enclosed.
 
Again, what problem do you have with self-government? Why is it okay for a local group of bureaucrats to make decisions for you but not one further away? Both are collectivistic in nature.

You may want to think about what you're saying when you keep advocating voting. Mob rule has never worked in history. Here's a video explaining exactly why voting is a horrible idea:

YouTube - ‪True News 5: The Truth About Voting‬‎

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showpost.php?p=2828304&postcount=7
 
I have no problem with self-government, quit assuming I do. I have said on your own property you should be able to do whatever you want as long as you harm none. That is self government taken to a maximum.

Only on public property may people decide what is allowable and what isn't. It is a pretty simply concept. As I already compared, it is like stock ownership in a company. The stockholders vote on certain things and the winning vote item is what happens. It is owned by all stock holders. A city is essentially where it is owned by all residents and thus they vote on what they want. If you dislike it, sell your share (move), or convince people to vote for your preferred items.

As for the youtube, if you want to comment further then comment in your post, I am not a fan of youtube links in forums.

It's not like stock ownership in a company CC.
The huge difference is, one is voluntary, the other is force, at the barrel of a gun. You may be okay with violence backing the laws you desire, but I am not. To achieve a peaceful, prosperous world, we have to take out state-sponsored violence. You say you are for self government, but then you contradict that by saying you are for laws like this one, and local government controlling part of your (and my) life.

If you don't want to watch the video I post, that's fine, just skip over it, but it's very relevant to our discussion.
 
Thank goodness we're going to protect 17-year-olds from second-hand smoke (even those who already smoke), but leave babies exposed to third-hand smoke. This law is sure to do precisely what it's supposed to.

"Officer, I had my window cracked, you just couldn't see it."

"Oh."

~Case dismissed~ Vehicle was not enclosed.

last word.
 
It's not like stock ownership in a company CC.
The huge difference is, one is voluntary, the other is force, at the barrel of a gun. You may be okay with violence backing the laws you desire, but I am not. To achieve a peaceful, prosperous world, we have to take out state-sponsored violence. You say you are for self government, but then you contradict that by saying you are for laws like this one, and local government controlling part of your (and my) life.

If you don't want to watch the video I post, that's fine, just skip over it, but it's very relevant to our discussion.

They are the same thing. They are both voluntary.
In the company if you dislike the results, you sell your share or you put up with it.
In the community if you dislike the results, you sell your share (your land/move) or put up with it. Yes, if things are federally controlled then that option isn't available, but I oppose federal control.

I am for self government on my land. When I'm on public land I'm subject to public opinion. I can do as I wish when I'm at home, but if I desire to be out in society, I have to give way to society's desires. Just like a society can decide it if wants to be free market capitalism or if it wants to be socialism, a society can decide if it wants a smoking ban in public or if it wants anything goes. You live where you like. Dislike the laws, change opinions or move.
 
It's using violence to enforce your desire to control people's behavior. Think about the deeper moral hazard of letting the government control aspects of our lives, rather than whether something is good for us or not.

A law is just an opinion backed by a gun. Would you be willing to pull the trigger on the cigarette smoker who is pulled over and tries to defend him/herself? Why do you think violence is the best way to solve society's problems? Surely, you must admit, that there are other ways to protect children outside of government (like, say, better parenting)? Surely, you don't think the government should step in and provide the role of parents?

These are probably the best posts regarding the subject. Of course they get ignored by the supporters of this tyrannical law.

Reminds me of this great article
http://www.lostlibertycafe.com/index.php/2009/11/14/the-gun-in-the-room/
 
Another thing to keep in mind, the parent is the party responsible for the well being of the child - not the state. It's for the parents to decide if something is in their child's best interest.

As it relates to smoking ... I remember hearing of parents that caught their kids smoking and made the child smoke an entire pack straight. The kid got sick from smoking them and from then on hated cigarettes.

Consider what happens when the state assumes the responsibility for deciding what is best for children - public schools, 'free' lunch programs, 'free' child health insurance, anti-spanking legislation, mandatory vaccinations. (Others, feel free to add to the list)

I'm not prepared to strip local government from the means to step in and protect a child from gross physical abuse. But, even with the government having its claws in cases of gross physical abuse ... look at the number of families that have been wrongly torn apart because of false accusations, etc. Look at the states that won't release kids out of foster families into adoptive families because it's more lucrative to keep the children in foster families. Read some of the nightmare stories of CYS in the Civil Liberties subforum. People are afraid to take injured kids to the hospital for fear of the CYS stealing their child. I'll type it out again to let it sink in: People are afraid to take injured kids to the hospital for fear of the CYS stealing their child.

We need to drastically cut back the government's influence in raising children. This smoking legislation does the opposite. Don't get snookered into believing "it's for the kids!" If we really care about the kids, we'll let the parents be the parents.
 
They are the same thing. They are both voluntary.
In the company if you dislike the results, you sell your share or you put up with it.
In the community if you dislike the results, you sell your share (your land/move) or put up with it. Yes, if things are federally controlled then that option isn't available, but I oppose federal control.

I am for self government on my land. When I'm on public land I'm subject to public opinion. I can do as I wish when I'm at home, but if I desire to be out in society, I have to give way to society's desires. Just like a society can decide it if wants to be free market capitalism or if it wants to be socialism, a society can decide if it wants a smoking ban in public or if it wants anything goes. You live where you like. Dislike the laws, change opinions or move.

Ok, so you are against the idea of a federal government, we can agree on that. But NO government is voluntary; you don't even have a choice to opt out of your local city government "services"- they are provided to you at the barrel of a gun. "Public" land is just government-owned land. "Society's desires", and government's desires are not the same thing. This is a huge difference.

And no, a "society" can't make decisions. Were you ever asked your opinion on what type of government you would like to have? I know I wasn't. Otherwise, I would have voluntarily opted out of the collectivist democracy we live in.

Wait, you didn't just say "move"? Where am I going to move to? I want true freedom, I do not want part of my life controlled by some bureaucrats who use violence to accomplish their ends. Where should I move to if I want freedom?

What you are advocating is collectivism. It doesn't work on a massive scale or a local scale. It's simply mob rule. And the mob in your town is no better or worse than the mob somewhere else. It's all based on theft and violence, so can you explain to me how this is a moral or just society?
 
I am for self government on my land. When I'm on public land I'm subject to public opinion. I can do as I wish when I'm at home, but if I desire to be out in society, I have to give way to society's desires.

Please clarify if that means you are for letting parents decide if they smoke in a car while their child is in the car. Is it dependent on if the car is on your property? Generally the car is understood as an extension of your castle (ie not subject to search w/o warrant.)
 
Ok, so you are against the idea of a federal government, we can agree on that. But NO government is voluntary; you don't even have a choice to opt out of your local city government "services"- they are provided to you at the barrel of a gun. "Public" land is just government-owned land. "Society's desires", and government's desires are not the same thing. This is a huge difference.
It is voluntary in the sense you can sell your land (your stock) and move.
At the local level, what society wants is what you get. You may still have some, but a lot of the crap you see at the federal level is gone. Easier to replace scummy people with good.

And no, a "society" can't make decisions. Were you ever asked your opinion on what type of government you would like to have? I know I wasn't. Otherwise, I would have voluntarily opted out of the collectivist democracy we live in.
It is called voting, and yes I have been asked if I support X or Y and if I dislike how someone is doing their job I vote out them out or vote out the guy who is in charge of hiring them.

Wait, you didn't just say "move"? Where am I going to move to? I want true freedom, I do not want part of my life controlled by some bureaucrats who use violence to accomplish their ends. Where should I move to if I want freedom?
Move to a place that has a population with views similar to yours. No one should be able to tell everyone in the nation how things must be. Not anarchists or communists or corporatists. Let the individual communities decide.

What you are advocating is collectivism. It doesn't work on a massive scale or a local scale. It's simply mob rule. And the mob in your town is no better or worse than the mob somewhere else. It's all based on theft and violence, so can you explain to me how this is a moral or just society?
Policies, "collectivist" or not, can work on local levels. Whether it be free market capitalism or socialism. It is up to the community to decide what they want. Those who dislike it can find a community that better fits in with their views.

You just want to force your view on the entire nation. You're no better than all the other centralists out there.
 
Please clarify if that means you are for letting parents decide if they smoke in a car while their child is in the car. Is it dependent on if the car is on your property? Generally the car is understood as an extension of your castle (ie not subject to search w/o warrant.)

I'd say if it is on your property then it'd fall under the same category as smoking in your house.
 
I cant believe how much you guys are looking into this. Libertarians believe that you have the freedom to whatever you want so long as your freedoms does not infringe on the freedoms of others.

You have the freedom to smoke but your kids have the freedom to not have to inhale your smoke. If you want to smoke then smoke outside away from your kids. Don't smoke in an enclosed car forcing your kids to suffer the consequences of your habits.

That being said Im not sure how police will ever be able to enforce this law. They are already busy enough hiding behind trees trying to catch speeders....
 
I cant believe how much you guys are looking into this. Libertarians believe that you have the freedom to whatever you want so long as your freedoms does not infringe on the freedoms of others.

You have the freedom to smoke but your kids have the freedom to not have to inhale your smoke. If you want to smoke then smoke outside away from your kids. Don't smoke in an enclosed car forcing your kids to suffer the consequences of your habits.

That being said Im not sure how police will ever be able to enforce this law. They are already busy enough hiding behind trees trying to catch speeders....

Please clarify. Are you suggesting that one should not smoke in an enclosed car with children present?

Or, are you suggesting the power of the state should step in and at the barrel of a gun stop anybody who smokes in an enclosed car with children present?
 
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