SPOILERS -- The Force Awakens Discussion -- SPOILERS

cjm

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I went to the movie theater last night to see The Force Awakens and I was left with a feeling of Meh. I liked the Finn character and his reluctant hero vibe and that's about it.
Too many coincidences: they just happened to use the Millennium Falcon as their escape vehicle and then immediately Hans Solo found them.

Playing devil's advocate... Coincidences happen, and coincidences make for good stories sometimes. Keep in mind that the entire Star Wars universe is made up, so we could have an interesting story or a boring one. A coincidence makes for better story telling -- even if it wouldn't be super-believable in the real world.

Or when they go to some bar on a planet and Luke Skywalker's light saber happened to be there.

The proprietor in that series of scenes was supposed to be somewhat "connected." If the light saber wasn't there, the movie would have to take another 30 minutes to stumble upon the light saber in some other place. Better to combine the scenes and keep the story moving.

My biggest problem with the movie was the ending. I understand in any movie the concept of suspension of disbelief, but the ending was too unbelievable. Okay Kylo Ren has been training his whole life mastering the force. The guy can stop a plasma rifle round when it is shot at him, but yet he can't read Rey's mind because the force was strong with her. Kylo Ren also couldn't defeat Rey in a light saber fight and she had just discovered the power force literally that day, ridiculous.

Yeah, I was of the same opinion at first. But since I have mad Jedi rationalization skillz, try this on...

Kylo Ren was trained in the elitist dark side academies and never really faced a ruffian from the real world. So, plasma rifle was just like year two training at the academy. When he runs into something unexpected (gal from sand planet that resists his Vulcan mind meld), it throws him enough that his training can't compensate. He has demonstrated that he's conflicted, and this trivial information extraction throws him off. From Rey's point of view, she's plucked from the sand world that she knew and thrust into this crazy mess. Flight or fight response, spider senses tingling, now able to access "force" stuff that might not have been accessible before? Rey obviously had some blaster and hand-to-hand survival skills from her life pre-force. She took out three(?) trained sand troopers who were looking for BB-8 before she discovered her force-sensitivity. If she had good combat skills prior to force awakening, they'd only be heightened by the force -- maybe enough to take on this country club "force master"?
 
Playing devil's advocate... Coincidences happen, and coincidences make for good stories sometimes. Keep in mind that the entire Star Wars universe is made up, so we could have an interesting story or a boring one. A coincidence makes for better story telling -- even if it wouldn't be super-believable in the real world.



The proprietor in that series of scenes was supposed to be somewhat "connected." If the light saber wasn't there, the movie would have to take another 30 minutes to stumble upon the light saber in some other place. Better to combine the scenes and keep the story moving.



Yeah, I was of the same opinion at first. But since I have mad Jedi rationalization skillz, try this on...

Kylo Ren was trained in the elitist dark side academies and never really faced a ruffian from the real world. So, plasma rifle was just like year two training at the academy. When he runs into something unexpected (gal from sand planet that resists his Vulcan mind meld), it throws him enough that his training can't compensate. He has demonstrated that he's conflicted, and this trivial information extraction throws him off. From Rey's point of view, she's plucked from the sand world that she knew and thrust into this crazy mess. Flight or fight response, spider senses tingling, now able to access "force" stuff that might not have been accessible before? Rey obviously had some blaster and hand-to-hand survival skills from her life pre-force. She took out three(?) trained sand troopers who were looking for BB-8 before she discovered her force-sensitivity. If she had good combat skills prior to force awakening, they'd only be heightened by the force -- maybe enough to take on this country club "force master"?

Ok, then how come he had trouble beating Fin in a lightsabre duel, who himself was just a stromtrooper rookie?

Stupid. It was stupid how weak Ren was.

And why was Luke Skywalker training for all that Jedi stuff, when Rey was a natural with the stromtrooper guarding her in the chamber. I got a little scared when she tried it the first time, then laughed when the storm trooper told her he would tighten her restriants. But lo and behold, with absolute zero training in the force, and having just been told it is real, she is now using mind control techniques on storm troopers. really, that was about when the movie got stupid. And it just got worse and worse and worse, until I left the theater, and then woke up this morning, thinking something bad happened last night... ..oh yeah, I saw another crappy movie.
 
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Finn he was probably just toying with, though his letting himself get cut is stupid. Honestly I loved everything about the movie EXCEPT the lightsaber fights. Because of the improbable outcomes. Though... at least they were fought in a style more reminiscent of the original movies rather than the obnoxiousness of the prequels.
 
Ok, then how come he had trouble beating Fin in a lightsabre duel, who himself was just a stromtrooper rookie?

Stupid. It was stupid how weak Ren was.

On the surface, you're right. There's no way that a rookie storm trooper should be able to keep up with someone who masters the dark side of the force. But does he master the force? Kylo is an emotional mess at every turn taking his light sabre to the equipment whenever something doesn't go in his favor. Is this really a force master? Or is he riding on his family legacy? I think there are some parallels here with Jeb Bush.

Jeb demands apology from Trump > Trump says "no" > Jeb crumbles
Kylo demands information from Rey > Rey resists > Kylo crumbles

Sure, Kylo is a tough guy when he's rolling with a company of storm troopers, but when alone out in the woods? He shows his true colors -- he's a fraud.

And why was Luke Skywalker training for all that Jedi stuff, when Rey was a natural with the stromtrooper guarding her in the chamber. I got a little scared when she tried it the first time, then laughed when the storm trooper told her he would tighten her restriants. But lo and behold, with absolute zero training in the force, and having just been told it is real, she is now using mind control techniques on storm troopers. really, that was about when the movie got stupid.

Let's remember that Luke had heard of Jedi Knights but apparently never heard of the Force before visiting with Obi-wan. Obi-wan had to explain it to him. Who should we expect to take to it faster? The one that never heard of it? or the one that heard about the Force but never thought it was real? Luke gets a little coaching from Obi-wan while riding on the Falcon but completes no formal training. Yet, he can fly an X-wing well enough to avoid Vader (best pilot in the galaxy) and drop some photo torpedoes right on target with the nav/targeting computer turned off. That's a bit of a stretch too.

Also, Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-minded, but this can't be a binary condition (weak minded or not). There's undoubtedly a spectrum and it's possible that the storm trooper guarding Rey was among the weakest minded troopers they had -- making it easier for the Force novice to pull off the trick.

But I'm just playing devil's advocate. I rolled my eyes a bit at the mind trick scene too.
 
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On the surface, you're right. There's no way that a rookie storm trooper should be able to keep up with someone who masters the dark side of the force. But does he master the force? Kylo is an emotional mess at every turn taking his light sabre to the equipment whenever something doesn't go in his favor. Is this really a force master? Or is he riding on his family legacy? I think there are some parallels here with Jeb Bush.

Jeb demands apology from Trump > Trump says "no" > Jeb crumbles
Kylo demands information from Rey > Rey resists > Kylo crumbles

Sure, Kylo is a tough guy when he's rolling with a company of storm troopers, but when alone out in the woods? He shows his true colors -- he's a fraud.



Let's remember that Luke had heard of Jedi Knights but apparently never heard of the Force before visiting with Obi-wan. Obi-wan had to explain it to him. Who should we expect to take to it faster? The one that never heard of it? or the one that heard about the Force but never thought it was real? Luke gets a little coaching from Obi-wan while riding on the Falcon but completes no formal training. Yet, he can fly an X-wing well enough to avoid Vader (best pilot in the galaxy) and drop some photo torpedoes right on target with the nav/targeting computer turned off. That's a bit of a stretch too.

Also, Jedi mind tricks only work on the weak-minded, but this can't be a binary condition (weak minded or not). There's undoubtedly a spectrum and it's possible that the storm trooper guarding Rey was among the weakest minded troopers they had -- making it easier for the Force novice to pull off the trick.

But I'm just playing devil's advocate. I rolled my eyes a bit at the mind trick scene too.

I'm not going to try to rationalize it. The bottom line is they ruined the second half of the movie because it was more important to make the feminists happy. It's not good enough that she's as good as the other Skywalker, but she has to be infinitely better.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not against strong female characters. Rey was actually not as strong as Leia. Leia was so much more in charge and authoritative. The difference is that Leia was paired with a strong male character, and Rey was paired with a beta male. This is the new dynamic that the feminists are pushing, not equality, but female supremacy. It's not enough for them that women have the same rights and opportunities as men, they want to take the position that men once had as the dominant sex.

Everything in this movie was so freaking predictable too. As soon as she looked at the stormtrooper you just knew what she was going to do.
 
For a couple of days after seeing Solo get killed, it did't sit right with me. Now though, I can appreciate how powerful the scene was.
 
Definitely not the old days with Solo talking smack on the princess's silver spoon status and the princess giving him shit right back.

Lot of plot explanation dialogue though it could have been worse. Probably a symptom of audience attention span plummeting.

The whole "giant Death Star " was pretty effortless imho.

Liked it as a whole as the characters and their abilities were more believable and true to the originals. Much less super heroism and cartoonish.
 
Rey is almost certainly a Skywalker--probably Luke's daughter. There were a lot of tells that seem to point to this, though it wasn't explicitly confirmed.

Although, I didn't really like the ease with which she was able to both successfully use Force powers and competently wield a lightsaber to such an extent as to overpower and outclass a practiced darkside apprentice, who has evidently trained under both Luke and another presumably strong darkside master of some kind (possibly Sith). The Force isn't something you just pick up over night, and lightsabers are canonically supposed to be difficult to wield due to the physics of their mechanics. So, as a rather hardcore Star Wars geek, that kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

It's kinda weird that they took Luke's son's name from the EU and gave it to Han's son. Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo are their respective sons from the EU, but I guess Kylo's name is Ben for some reason. Not really sure why.

Leia was probably the weakest of the returning characters, as far as performance goes. Harrison Ford seemed to slip seamlessly back into the role of Han. It was sad to see him finally go, but it was inevitable.

I generally liked all the newer characters--Kylo, Rey, Finn, BB-8... they all did a pretty good job, IMO.

Where the plot is concerned, I found the Death Star 3.0 to be kind of lame. I would have liked to see something more original rather than another super planet killing weapon that's functionally the exact same thing as the Death Star, just bigger. Seemed rather lazy to me.

I was a bit disappointed there wasn't a bit more exposition where the bad guys are concerned. "Sith" was only mentioned once in the entire movie, and it was a reference to the past, which is a bit odd to me. I don't know if Disney is ditching the Sith entirely or what, but if they are, I'm going to be very disappointed. We weren't really given much about Supreme Leader Snoke--so it's still possible he may be Sith, but it doesn't seem like Kylo was Sith. From what I gather the "Ren" title of the Knights Kylo represented is analogous to the "Darth" title of the Sith. But, to me, Sith are as necessary to the Star Wars universe as Jedi are, so I hope they aren't being 'reinvented' as something else by Disney.

Special effects were top notch, music was great, and the battles were fun to watch.
 
Rey is almost certainly a Skywalker--probably Luke's daughter. There were a lot of tells that seem to point to this, though it wasn't explicitly confirmed.

Although, I didn't really like the ease with which she was able to both successfully use Force powers and competently wield a lightsaber to such an extent as to overpower and outclass a practiced darkside apprentice, who has evidently trained under both Luke and another presumably strong darkside master of some kind (possibly Sith). The Force isn't something you just pick up over night, and lightsabers are canonically supposed to be difficult to wield due to the physics of their mechanics. So, as a rather hardcore Star Wars geek, that kinda rubbed me the wrong way.

It's kinda weird that they took Luke's son's name from the EU and gave it to Han's son. Ben Skywalker and Jacen Solo are their respective sons from the EU, but I guess Kylo's name is Ben for some reason. Not really sure why.

Leia was probably the weakest of the returning characters, as far as performance goes. Harrison Ford seemed to slip seamlessly back into the role of Han. It was sad to see him finally go, but it was inevitable.

I generally liked all the newer characters--Kylo, Rey, Finn, BB-8... they all did a pretty good job, IMO.

Where the plot is concerned, I found the Death Star 3.0 to be kind of lame. I would have liked to see something more original rather than another super planet killing weapon that's functionally the exact same thing as the Death Star, just bigger. Seemed rather lazy to me.

I was a bit disappointed there wasn't a bit more exposition where the bad guys are concerned. "Sith" was only mentioned once in the entire movie, and it was a reference to the past, which is a bit odd to me. I don't know if Disney is ditching the Sith entirely or what, but if they are, I'm going to be very disappointed. We weren't really given much about Supreme Leader Snoke--so it's still possible he may be Sith, but it doesn't seem like Kylo was Sith. From what I gather the "Ren" title of the Knights Kylo represented is analogous to the "Darth" title of the Sith. But, to me, Sith are as necessary to the Star Wars universe as Jedi are, so I hope they aren't being 'reinvented' as something else by Disney.

Special effects were top notch, music was great, and the battles were fun to watch.

Han is not gone. ;) Hide and watch.
 
There are rumors from the IMDB rabbit hole that some of the prequel characters may be in the next 2. Strongest rumor so far is that Hayden Christensen may be back as Anakin for episode IX.

Benecio del Toro has been cast for episode VIII, he will play a yet unknown villain.
 
My brother hated Han Solo... so he was happy. He's a clone wars span and his favorite character was the 2003 cartoon general grievous. ,he kept asking me where's grievous? Lol.
 
I recently caught Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom on TV and I keep wishing that Star Wars: The Force Awakens could have essentially felt just a little more like Indiana Jones in space.

Hell, even much like the Temple of Doom mind control bit, Han could have been subjected to the Stormtrooper conditioning. That might have been a bigger shocker and cliffhanger to see Han simply join Kylo Ren and the First Order.

Yeah, I know Harrison is burned out on the character, but this would even give him something different to do playing a villain.
 
I thought it was funny that they doubled down on the things we made fun of. One being "I got a bad feeling about this." and the other being the "made the Kessel Run in 12 Parsecs". Obviously both inside jokes to those nerd critics among us.

For me actually the funniest thing was my 12 year olds reaction at the end of the movie, "This isn't the last one!" LOL. I LOL'ed all the way home. Very naive, I can't imagine going into the movie thinking this was the last one, but apparently he thought that. He was like, "Harry Potter ended at 7 movies, I figured this one was the end?!" I was like, "Dude they're gonna milk this for at least 5 years. It's called The Force Awakens, not The Force is Resolved."

Ok, then how come he had trouble beating Fin in a lightsabre duel, who himself was just a stromtrooper rookie?

Stupid. It was stupid how weak Ren was.

And why was Luke Skywalker training for all that Jedi stuff, when Rey was a natural with the stromtrooper guarding her in the chamber. I got a little scared when she tried it the first time, then laughed when the storm trooper told her he would tighten her restriants. But lo and behold, with absolute zero training in the force, and having just been told it is real, she is now using mind control techniques on storm troopers. really, that was about when the movie got stupid. And it just got worse and worse and worse, until I left the theater, and then woke up this morning, thinking something bad happened last night... ..oh yeah, I saw another crappy movie.

I don't know about the Finn guy, but I'd say explanation for Rey is that she is obviously "The Chosen One" and not Luke. I'm sure the writers have the next movies plot lines pretty much hashed out, and they obviously want us curious why she is even more powerful than Annaken or Luke was in terms of raw untrained power. She will be the one who balances the Force.
 
From my blog post on Star Wars:

...on both the big screen and in life, there have been ‘new episodes’ where the Resistance started to emerge, be it called the Goldwater movement, A New Hope, Morning in America, Return of the Jedi, or the Ron Paul revolution. In fact, the plots have been curiously similar. A New Hope was about an evil dude dressed in black trying to retrieve some critical info from the Rebels, only the data has been stored inside a cute droid, who escapes to hide on a desert planet. The droid meets with the main protagonists, who end up blasting their way off the planet together by flying the Millenium Falcon. From there, they wind up working with the Resistance, becoming more aware of the ways of the Jedi and more comfortable battling the Sith-controlled tyrants. A daring plan is devised to destroy the enemy’s new Death star, where a daring rescue is also to be made, and where a tragic death of a main protagonist occurs. Meanwhile, The Force Awakens is about—hmmm, the same thing, word for word. The more things change…

The only divergence between the reel world and the real world is that while the good guys win some battles on both fronts, the Sith/Empire/First Order globalist forces keep winning the war in the modern world. The quick version of the real world script goes, conservatives promise major change towards restoring limited constitutional government in every national election, then get elected and after that, nothing happens legislatively. No one has found a way to blow up the big government Death Star, or repeal any major program, and no Skywalker has emerged to reverse the advance of the New World Order...
 
I don't know about the Finn guy, but I'd say explanation for Rey is that she is obviously "The Chosen One" and not Luke. I'm sure the writers have the next movies plot lines pretty much hashed out, and they obviously want us curious why she is even more powerful than Annaken or Luke was in terms of raw untrained power. She will be the one who balances the Force.

I liked the actress who played Rey, and thought she did well. The problem is, at least to me, the character Rey came off as far too Mary Sue-ish for my tastes. In the beginning, I thought this might end up being a problem with Finn, but even Finn had his failures and weaknesses (though I do think his effectiveness with a saber was pushing it a bit too far). Rey, on the other hand, was just great at literally everything, all the time.

Climb a sheer face with ease? Check. Fine, I can give her this one since she has a established background as a scavenger.

Effectively start using a blaster with ease even though it's rather clearly implied she isn't experienced with one? Check. Even Luke wasn't exactly great with a blaster starting out, despite the fact that his previous experience shooting womp rats is referenced.

Automatically and immediately learn to defend against and employ Force powers, including Mind Trick and Telekinesis, even in contention against a much more experienced and trained user? Check. Unless I'm forgetting something, Luke wasn't shown using Mind Trick until RotJ, after having trained with the likes of both Obi-wan and Yoda. And his Telekinetic power was still not mastered by ESB. Rey, OTOH, defends against Kylo's interrogation almost automatically, and then after a mere couple of tries, completely Mind Tricks the Stormtrooper guarding her, and then proceeds to overpower Kylo's telekinesis... Zero training, zero experience. From knowing nothing to becoming magically proficient in Jedi abilities inside of a 24-hour period. Mind you, it is established that Kylo has had training under both Luke and Snoke, so much training, in fact, that he had been able to successfully betray Luke, and went on to become the leader of the Knights of Ren, which I assume is a position of some note.

Great pilot? Even using ships she has no experience with? Check. Even Anakin as a boy was really just winging it when he gets into his first ship, and he also had the help of R2 as well. Plus he also had a bit of podracer experience, which while not the exact same is certainly related. That being said, I'm prepared to give her a pass here, as it has been established that Force sensitivity tends to lend itself to piloting, as we've seen with both Anakin and Luke, among others.

Great techy? Check. She fixes the Falcon in a way that even surprised Han right after flying it for the first time.

Great at melee combat? Check. In one of her first scenes, we see her successfully fight off an entire group of assailants with ease using her polearm. But that isn't enough, no she's also apparently great at using a lightsaber as well, as she successfully defeats Kylo (again, established training), despite the fact that canonically, lightsabers are unique weapons from traditional melee weapons due to the physics of their mechanics--you don't just pick one up and begin to wield it competently, especially against another who has had dedicated training. And yes, Kylo had been battling Finn beforehand, and did sustain damage from both Finn (but honestly, Finn should have totally failed at using the saber) and Chewie, but still... the proficiency with which Rey was using the saber was just a bit much.

Force sensitivity can contribute to some of these things--improved reflexes, perception, and the like... but it can't explain how great she was in all of these cases, using all of these different skillsets.

I think it was heavily implied that she is a Skywalker (and even probably Luke's daughter), but even if we, for the sake of argument, assume this is correct, and then go on to assume that maybe she had a bit of training as a child that she simply doesn't remember, that doesn't account for all of this either.

And while I don't expect Kylo was the greatest darkside practitioner, he clearly had plenty of competency and training. So, it isn't simply a case of Kylo being a total noob, either.

So, in the end, she just came off as very Mary Sue to me. Too good at too much.
 
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Ok, then how come he had trouble beating Fin in a lightsabre duel, who himself was just a stromtrooper rookie?

Stupid. It was stupid how weak Ren was.

And why was Luke Skywalker training for all that Jedi stuff, when Rey was a natural with the stromtrooper guarding her in the chamber. I got a little scared when she tried it the first time, then laughed when the storm trooper told her he would tighten her restriants. But lo and behold, with absolute zero training in the force, and having just been told it is real, she is now using mind control techniques on storm troopers. really, that was about when the movie got stupid. And it just got worse and worse and worse, until I left the theater, and then woke up this morning, thinking something bad happened last night... ..oh yeah, I saw another crappy movie.

The more I thought about this movie I went from thinking this movie was to alright to agreeing with you and thinking "I saw another crappy movie."
When I first walked out of this movie I was blinded by nostalgia. I wanted this movie to kick ass, but it didn't.
If people want to see awesome movies that are part of a franchise that don't totally sh!t on the originals. Go see the movies Creed and Mad Max: Fury Road. In my opinion these were also the two best films of 2015.
I'm also hoping for good things with the Point Break remake.
 
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Kylo Ren had two motivations for not using his full strength in that scene: he just killed his father (and his grief was influencing him) and he wanted to turn Rey.Rey is operating in "he just killed Han, he'll kill me too" mode. And who is to say she isn't the child of two strong force sensitives---Luke and Mara Jade? I wouldn't say anyone won the fight, more like a draw.
 
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