Some insider observations from living in socialist Sweden and comparing it to the USA

[GreenCardSeeker]

How did you come to be so liberty conscious in such a political society? Parents, friends, or were you always this smart?

Ooh, hehe, missed your reply here. Thanks for the compliment. It's mostly been from the government stepping on me too much. I've realized that if I had lived in the USA, these things wouldn't have happened. These are the personal reasons I have for seeing the Swedish system in a bad light now:

* When I was in school, I was very much ahead in subjects like math. I was very bored with classes and asked if they had something more advanced, but I learned that Sweden had no gifted programs or anything like that, for ideological reasons - enforced egalitarianism.

* When I was 20 years old and had moved out of my mom's house, they invaded my life due to noticing I matched the diagnosis for something called Asperger's syndrome. They tried to put me in nursing homes and similar, assigned a helper, checked on how I was doing at home so that I could prove that I could live by myself, in spite of me not asking for any of this but merely trying to get them to leave me alone. This went on for months before I finally convinced them there was no need for them to come into my life. It was quite traumatic, it felt like the government was raping me by insinuating I couldn't live independently - and they had absolutely no indication I wasn't able to, all they had to go on was the diagnosis the social workers had made.

* A few years after that, when I visited the employment office hoping to get help in finding a job, I was told they wouldn't even help me with an internship since they had found out I wasn't politically correct in my views. I've never been a public person and didn't wear any political signs or similar, so I asked them where they had gotten this information. The woman at the office giggled and told me "they had their sources". Most likely it was due to the police becoming aware of me having bought server space for a friend's white power homepage and forwarded this information to the employment office.

All in all, I've been treated like dirt by the Swedish state, it's like they would rather have seen me dead due to me not being their ideal socialist citizen. In Sweden, you're not made aware of there actually being more free states in the world, it's mostly from watching this Ron Paul movement that I've learned that the USA has liberty and lots of checks and balances on government that Sweden is missing completely. In Swedish mass media, you get the impression that the only people concerned about state power in the USA is the "black helicopter" crowd, that they're the kind of people that think the government controls the weather to hurt farmers and such. Reality is being distorted so very much over here.

 

[noxagol]

Reality is distorted very much everywhere. It's to the point that you have to carefully, and I mean carefully, choose what to believe and who to believe it from. It is just that distorted.

I wish you luck in your endevours over there fighting the good fight. Best thing you can do is convince those closest to you of the ideas of total liberty and freedom and work from there. Liberty is a seed that once sowed will grow quite rapidly.

 

[zeke105]

Thanks for the great information. I appreciate your contribution to a better global understanding. It would be great to get this kind of subjective and yet critical perspective from every country.

 

[GreenCardSeeker]

Thanks for the great information. I appreciate your contribution to a better global understanding. It would be great to get this kind of subjective and yet critical perspective from every country.

Yes, it feels like in today's world, the only country you get a critical perspective on is the USA. Both European and American media seem to paint a much too rosy picture of Europe's socialist systems. Much of the reason that so much critical material on the USA is available is that it's a fully open and honest society, unlike over here in Europe, where there is quite a bit of consensus between the state and mass media. If mass media was to criticize the government, they'd lose their privileged position. I think American mass media should more aggressively investigate European societies in-depth to counter the picture leftist media presents. When they mention Europe on Fox news etc, it seems like they're content to merely briefly mention stuff like long health care lines etc, which can leave people sceptical whether it's true. The negative portrayal of European socialism is well-founded, yet Americans have most likely not been exposed to polemical material like Michael Moore's movies, that present a very biased picture of the USA. Over here, you'd have plenty of material for such documentaries, but it seems that libertarians and conservatives share very little of the interest in propaganda that the leftists have.

 

[priest_of_syrinx]

Hey, if you plan on coming to the United States, but still like the weather in Sweden, come to North Dakota. We're cold as hell in the winter, hot as hell in the summer, and we got 5 delegates for Ron Paul. It's a very good state.

 

[Andrew-Austin]

Hey, what part of America are you considering moving to? Wherever it is the cheapest to live or what?

Also, certainly your country has its fair share of dysfunctions, but I'm wondering what Sweden's education is like. Overall I'm sure its markedly better than America's dumbed down education system, even considering the mass of immigrants who bog it down. Also I'm sure Swedish public education is used to indocrtinate kids into believing in the socialist state (slanted history and government classes)?

 

[GreenCardSeeker]

Hey, what part of America are you considering moving to? Wherever it is the cheapest to live or what?

Haven't decided yet since I still need a green card and I suppose immigrating illegally might be risky if I suddenly find myself being sent back.

Also, certainly your country has its fair share of dysfunctions, but I'm wondering what Sweden's education is like. Overall I'm sure its markedly better than America's dumbed down education system, even considering the mass of immigrants who bog it down. Also I'm sure Swedish public education is used to indocrtinate kids into believing in the socialist state (slanted history and government classes)?

Hmm, I suppose I could go on for quite a bit about the education system here. When I grew up in a rural area, it was a pretty stable system, though heavily influenced by egalitarian madness, which meant no advancing for gifted pupils. They simply had to accept being bored. I feel the pace of the education was a bit slow, not very competitive, even average students often found themselves finishing tasks early with little to do afterwards. The country has had a pretty strict enforcement of drugs, so you didn't have people getting diagnosed en masse with ADHD and put on drugs for that, I'm not aware of anyone that was on drugs at my school. Maybe because of the uncompetitive environment, they didn't even had to drug the slow learners, I've not had any experience with the American school environment. It seemed normal that everyone finished high school at least.

Anyway, this has changed a bit now, many of the immigrants don't achieve passing grades in core subjects in elementary school, so they can't go to real high school programs. The schools have had to stretch thin a kind of individual program that mostly just seems three years of slacking, to give the appearance that these pupils are actually passing high school.

The curriculum includes quite a bit of discrete indoctrination, yep. In one school book I had, it was even explicitly stated that it was society's fault that people became criminals. Less explicit indoctrination includes presenting religion as something that was embraced by backwards people during the dark ages that didn't know any better and that it suits no purpose today. Instead the state has taken on the god role here, the entity everyone turns to to solve their problems. You're also fed the notion that the whole world has flaws to some extent except the Swedish system, with its own brand of socialism. Since they're in control of the curriculum for the whole time the children are growing up and homeschooling is generally not allowed, they don't have to argue their points in a very active manner, they can do it by slowly building up the sense of what's normal in the child. The state has been extremely hostile towards anyone not using their curriculum. Private schools are allowed, but must use the national curriculum. Homeschooling is generally only allowed if geographic distances don't make going to school possible. In all, out of Sweden's over a million or so pupils, less than 1000 are homeschooled.

A few months back, the state TV had a show on a Christian church that had been able to ignore the curriculum and homeschool children in spite of this not being the law's intention. The show was quite a bit of 1984 hate hour towards the small church called Maranata. The TV interviewers tried to insinuate that the pupils didn't get to see other children etc, to which the pupils replied that they did. You could tell that the state was furious that they were able to educate children without including the state's secular values and beliefs.

 

[strapko]

This post upsets me, it seems as if a little more government intervention is implemented... Sweds would be living in the World Orwell described in 1984.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

I suppose immigrating illegally might be risky if I suddenly find myself being sent back.

Please don't do that. We have enough illegal immigration problems from Latin America thank you very much. Last thing we need is hordes of Swedes sneaking across our Canadian border. ;p

If you truly desire to become an American, then I say welcome.

But if you simply desire to live here for political reasons, then why not follow the advice of some of the other posters and advance the cause of liberty in Sweden?
Start an intellectual movement or maybe run for local office.

Sweden may not be used to freedom, but I don't think that means they can never experience it. Anglo-Saxon traditions of liberty didn't just pop out of nowhere, it was based on a gradual evolution that came from a spark.

And maybe you could be that spark for your country.

 

[GreenCardSeeker]

Please don't do that. We have enough illegal immigration problems from Latin America thank you very much. Last thing we need is hordes of Swedes sneaking across our Canadian border. ;p

If you truly desire to become an American, then I say welcome.

But if you simply desire to live here for political reasons, then why not follow the advice of some of the other posters and advance the cause of liberty in Sweden?
Start an intellectual movement or maybe run for local office.

Sweden may not be used to freedom, but I don't think that means they can never experience it. Anglo-Saxon traditions of liberty didn't just pop out of nowhere, it was based on a gradual evolution that came from a spark.

And maybe you could be that spark for your country.

Thanks for the welcome. I've tried to figure out how to set this country straight for some time now, but I just can't figure out how. The social democrats have a pretty successful strategy of bullying away dissidents, even the centrists/right in this country are really moderate for fear of their intimidation. The social democrats have their faithful voters that are convinced people can't live without the state and this system, that always vote for them. It's an extremely stagnant system, it's hard to see how you can make any difference here. Personally I feel I've tried my best and shouldn't waste my life away fighting a hopeless cause. It's so frustrating having to deal with almost braindead zealots.

 

[Mach]

So I assume you have universal healthcare? Could you tell me what happens if you wake up one morning with a toothache? chest pains? I am curious about the actual logistics of universal healthcare. I mean...do you just make an appointment with a dentist?

As far as the healthcare goes, here is an example from Canada, not sure how Universally comparable Canada and Sweden are though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRKl_llvepY

 

[majinkoola]

I understand how this guy feels. I'm an American, but I spent last semester in Scotland. A country known for freedom should embrace libertarianism, right? Wrong.

Of about 20 people I talked to about national healthcare (old and young people), only one was against it and one was straddling the fence on the issue. Everyone else was in full support. When I talked about the CCTV's everywhere, people said how they were there to prevent crime and did not seem to see the 1984 parallel. Nobody had heard of Ron Paul or libertarianism. The VAT is already included in the posted price of goods so I think people don't realize how much it is. When I brought up the gun control people talked about the lack of gun crime, failing to recognize the subsequent increase in stabbings.

At the same time people cried about how hard it was to get a job and how much everything cost, not realizing that all the gov't intervention caused those problems.

Everyone was like that, except the taxi driver who drove me to the airport as I got out of there. A libertarian in his views, as I think most a-political people are.

And don't condemn GreenCardSeeker for wanting to leave in pursuit of freedom. How did America come about again?

 

[Agent Chameleon]

And don't condemn GreenCardSeeker for wanting to leave in pursuit of freedom. How did America come about again?

I wasn't condemning him; just telling him to not enter my country the unlawful way.

 

[Agent Chameleon]

Thanks for the welcome. I've tried to figure out how to set this country straight for some time now, but I just can't figure out how. The social democrats have a pretty successful strategy of bullying away dissidents, even the centrists/right in this country are really moderate for fear of their intimidation. The social democrats have their faithful voters that are convinced people can't live without the state and this system, that always vote for them. It's an extremely stagnant system, it's hard to see how you can make any difference here. Personally I feel I've tried my best and shouldn't waste my life away fighting a hopeless cause. It's so frustrating having to deal with almost braindead zealots.

The situation in Sweden sounds awful, but America is sadly heading in that direction. If you read enough threads on this forum you'll find out that America has its own share of statists that control this country.

If you move here, be prepared to fight for the freedoms that you seek.

 

[AutoDas]

I've heard Switzerland is the most libertarian European country. I wonder if it's more free than America.

 

[Hiki]

I've heard Switzerland is the most libertarian European country. I wonder if it's more free than America.

No that would be Holland.

 

[Kade]

Indigenous. Your friends, did they say what political views they had and what crowd they were in? You can of course discuss matters privately with your friends, but if you openly challenge the perception of the socialdemocratic party as the bringers of light to a backwards country, you quickly face hostility. If you start talking about immigration on a public square or similar, the police will be there within minutes asking who you are, where you belong politically etc and possibly arrest you if your criticism isn't toothless enough. No one hoping to remain in an established party dares to do anything like that.

Same shit here, different color.

 

[kojirodensetsu]

I talk to this swedish girl from the internet. Somehow a political discussion started one time. I ended up saying that I'm against universal healthcare. And she almost seemed offended that I would be against it. She kept drilling at me with statements like "if I hadn't gotten free healthcare I'd be dead. Do you want me to be dead?"

And then she told me that in Sweden the government just.. gives people housing if they don't have one. I would have talked about that but I didn't want to have to listen to "do you want to see me homeless?"

Then when talking about private business she said she was fine with them, but seem to have a rather biased opinion against them. She cited a friend's bad experience with a private dentist and seemed to base her whole opinion on private businesses around that. Or at least, is using that as her justification.


She did complain about the immigration issue, but beyond that she seemed happy with the state the government is in.

 

[GreenCardSeeker]

I talk to this swedish girl from the internet. Somehow a political discussion started one time. I ended up saying that I'm against universal healthcare. And she almost seemed offended that I would be against it. She kept drilling at me with statements like "if I hadn't gotten free healthcare I'd be dead. Do you want me to be dead?"

Sounds a little like the desperado mentality the leftists here have. Swedes in general have poor self esteem and many feel the government is the only thing that is keeping them safe from the horrors of capitalism. Half a year ago I went to a doctor for an ingrown toenail and got a surgery appointment for which they said the line was three months. The other week I got a notice I would finally get it now, pretty exactly 6 months after the first doctor's visit. I feel this shouldn't take this long, it's not a procedure that requires much of an expert anyway, it's just traditional surgery cutting the nail a bit.

And then she told me that in Sweden the government just.. gives people housing if they don't have one. I would have talked about that but I didn't want to have to listen to "do you want to see me homeless?"

The government having housing for everyone here is very much a truth with modification. If you can't get an apartment by yourself, you might have to live in a group home with drug addicts and such. You should see the waiting lines for apartments in Stockholm btw, it's 20 years to get one there.. Quite a lot of planning ahead required, it's a pretty good sign of how it works when you try to ignore market factors. I suppose it's fairly easy to get an apartment of your own in the northern part of the country since the population in that part is diminishing and there are many empty publicly owned ones, but that's not the case in the big cities. Sweden has quite a few homeless people, I think Stockholm alone has like 5'000. They also suffer the fate of being stereotyped by the political establishment, it's insinuated that they themselves are to blame for it, that the government really tried to help them, when in fact many people don't get help paying their rents or getting apartments. Government bureacrats prefer to spend the money on services they provide instead of essentials like housing.

Then when talking about private business she said she was fine with them, but seem to have a rather biased opinion against them. She cited a friend's bad experience with a private dentist and seemed to base her whole opinion on private businesses around that. Or at least, is using that as her justification.

Sounds like she's one of those retarded social democrats that have been brought up with "class warfare" beliefs, who feel capitalists are thieves etc. It can be really annoying talking to them since they're so entrenched in their ideology, they've never known anything else or been open to hearing any other views. The mentality is that it's "us versus the enemy", with the enemy being anyone who disagrees. I find it quite ironic that while the social democratic voters are generally opposed to immigration, they're also opposed to any party that tries to change these policies since the social democratic party has declared them to be the enemy. Scary as it sounds, for decades the social democrats have used the word "enemy" among themselves for political opponents. It's an attitude that doesn't belong in a democracy of course.

 

[user]

Hello GreenCardSeeker, I just saw your other thread. I'm always interested to hear from those outside the US. Welcome!

I hope you find the US to be an improvement over Sweden, not for nationalistic reasons but for your own sake. Having lived here for so long, I'm disappointed by a lot of things here, but it could be much worse.