Social-Cons are scared to DEATH of Muslims. Why?

[Jace]

This makes a great deal of sense to me.

Thank you.

I have lived and traveled much overseas, and I have learned that the US is probably the most tolerant country there is when it comes to accepting others.

Of course the anti-Muslim hysteria promoted now by our media is over the top. But we are reaching a tipping point in this country.

We can expect more hysteria as our traditions and culture disappear as millions and millions of newcomers arrive year after year. Anytime an established population feels overrun by outsiders, there is going to be a reaction. That's how humans behave. The culture of this country is being transformed through mass immigration, and that has been the goal of the left. Transformation.

I admit I got a little annoyed reading this thread, as if Christians are these big ignorant hypocrites and Islam is all love and light and Muslims are so oppressed here. This country bends over backwards to accomodate Muslims, even as our leaders send our soldiers overseas to kill them. Yet Muslims still want to move here, and I don't see Christian Americans emigrating there. Anyone who thinks Christians have an easy time in the Muslim world while Muslims have it so tough here doesn't get out much.

 

[LibertyVox]

This makes a great deal of sense to me.

Seriously? I thought you were being sarcastic. lol

 

[Sola_Fide]

I don't think they'd be too happy living under the Mosaic law either. Have you ever read it? (Hint, it's in the Bible)?

Who here is arguing for Mosaic law?


We are libertarians arguing for Liberty. At least I am.


I don't think Muslim people are the enemy. I think American foreign policy has caused the Muslim world to hate America...and rightfully so.


But to simply draw these stupid equivocations (like saying Libertarianism and Sharia are equally prefferable) is knee-jerk multiculturalism.

 

[LibertyVox]

Thank you.

I have lived and traveled much overseas, and I have learned that the US is probably the most tolerant country there is when it comes to accepting others.

Of course the anti-Muslim hysteria promoted now by our media is over the top. But we are reaching a tipping point in this country.

We can expect more hysteria as our traditions and culture disappear as millions and millions of newcomers arrive year after year. Anytime an established population feels overrun by outsiders, there is going to be a reaction. That's how humans behave. The culture of this country is being transformed through mass immigration, and that has been the goal of the left. Transformation.

I admit I got a little annoyed reading this thread, as if Christians are these big ignorant hypocrites and Islam is all love and light and Muslims are so oppressed here. This country bends over backwards to accomodate Muslims, even as our leaders send our soldiers overseas to kill them. Yet Muslims still want to move here, and I don't see Christian Americans emigrating there. Anyone who thinks Christians have an easy time in the Muslim world while Muslims have it so tough here doesn't get out much.

Which traditions are disappearing? And no this country does not bend over backwards to accommodate muslims or for any one else. This country just accomodates, that's one reason muslims immigrate to the US. And I just went over the comments in a very cursory manner, and the most angry and intolerant comments weren't directed at Christians. On the other hand, the most irrational, untenable accusations and arguments were being used against moslems, including this one by you:

I think some people promote Islamic mass immigration into the West because they want the violence here.

And that's sad.

 

[Jace]

And why, exactly, are they having "trouble" with these people??? Methinks you need to do some research on the matter, instead of insinuating that those governments are right and the Muslims there are wrong.

You tell me why there is so much violence in nations that have large Muslim minorities. Nigeria, Thailand, China, France, the Netherlands, Serbia, Russia, etc. The teachings of Islam have no influence?

Just to be clear, I think the US needs to get out of the Middle East and declare neutrality in all the conflicts there. I think we need to treat the religion with respect, but keep it at arm's length.

Islam is at war with Thai Buddhism, Indian Hinduism, Israeli Judaism, Nigerian Christianity, Chinese atheism, etc. We are now mired in conflict over there that will never end. We should just get out and let others fight their own battles.

 

[LibertyVox]

You tell me why there is so much violence in nations that have large Muslim minorities. Nigeria, Thailand, China, France, the Netherlands, Serbia, Russia, etc. The teachings of Islam have no influence?

Just to be clear, I think the US needs to get out of the Middle East and declare neutrality in all the conflicts there. I think we need to treat the religion with respect, but keep it at arm's length.

Islam is at war with Thai Buddhism, Indian Hinduism, Israeli Judaism, Nigerian Christianity, Chinese atheism, etc. We are now mired in conflict over there that will never end. We should just get out and let others fight their own battles.

No one can answer those questions simply because they are mostly untrue. Read up on the fallacy of complex questions.
Seriously, you would fit in perfectly at any other forum.

 

[Matt Collins]

Seriously? I thought you were being sarcastic. lol

I just said it made sense. I didn't say that it was correct or accurate or what I believed, just that it seems like a logical argument to me. If another better argument were presented I would say the same thing for it.


I live in Nashville the center of the Southern Christianity (industry) and I work in talk radio and have Jewish and Baptist friends. So I get more than my fair share of anti-Muslim propaganda and attempting to decide what is legitimate with merit and what is nothing more than fear-mongering is very difficult. And that is why I started this thread to begin with; to help me sort through some of this stuff.

 

[Jace]

No one can answer those questions simply because they are mostly untrue. Read up on the fallacy of complex questions.
Seriously, you would fit in perfectly at any other forum.

How is it untrue? Please explain without the ad hominems.

 

[Matt Collins]

No one can answer those questions simply because they are mostly untrue. Read up on the fallacy of complex questions.
Seriously, you would fit in perfectly at any other forum.

Fascinating. I did just that:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_question


It reminds me of logic class and the LSAT exam

 

[LibertyVox]

I just said it made sense. I didn't say that it was correct or accurate or what I believed, just that it seems like a logical argument to me. If another better argument were presented I would say the same thing for it.


I live in Nashville the center of the Southern Christianity (industry) and I work in talk radio and have Jewish and Baptist friends. So I get more than my fair share of anti-Muslim propaganda and attempting to decide what is legitimate with merit and what is nothing more than fear-mongering is very difficult. And that is why I started this thread to begin with; to help me sort through some of this stuff.

Well Matt, I don't think this is the best place to start your search for answers. You might want to join an islamic forum or make friends with a muslim scholar to have those questions answered.
What kind of questions did you have in mind?

 

[LibertyVox]

"Well the Muslims are going to come in here and take over once they get enough people to vote themselves into office and then they'll institute Sharia Law and turn us into a Muslim nation... just look at the problems France and other European countries are having"

Well let me see if I can address these questions of yours as briefly as I can Matt.

For the 1st part, do you really think things are that simple? People just moving in and instituting what they want? It's impossible. I mean how does one do that? Do you have a possible scenario on how that would happen? Can a law be instituted which is unconstitutional? How many muslims are there in the US? How many muslims would it take? Someone made a light hearted comment about Catholic citizens having the clout to institute papal decrees
Turn us into a muslim nation? how? We've bombed the bejeezus out of the world's most pathetic country, instituted puppets of our choice, raitified their constitution, and they're still moslems. So how can we become moslems? Or is Islam such a potent idea and belief system that Americans will convert en masse? I mean what're we talking about? Where to begin?
Apart from that also consider that sharia or islamic jurisprudence does not have any one interpretation, there are dozens I am sure. No muslim country has it apart from Saudi and Iran as Abe said it and both are rejected by most muslims, and that's one reason why it isn't instituted in any other country. And forget Europe, apart from Britian and a few other countries, Europe is a very different place than the US. It's just a glamorized, industrialized 3rd world, in that the elites have a very 3rd world mentality.
Most muslim imigrants in countries like France were taken during their colonial rule from north Africa. The muslim demographic, and Europe's social program for minorities and the language used is very different than ours.
I mean even the most basic concept of freedom of speech in Europe is very different than ours. Irrational politics abound, one can't even openly speak about the Dutch atrocities in Indonesia without a some kind of reprisal. So Europe is a very different case.
I mean come on Matt....these facts are facile. the biggest concern should be this country starting to sound like Europe or the third world.

 

[Sola_Fide]

This makes a great deal of sense to me.

One of the best books I've read about how theology influences law and culture was The One And The Many by Rousas Rushdoony (Chuck Baldwin is a big fan of his).

Islam is a theology that emphasizes "oneness of being". In Islam, Allah is one, without division. This mirrors their conception of the State--the all-powerful One in which submission must be made. In the more religious Muslim countries, you ALWAYS have this progress toward centralization. Also, Allah is SO above and apart from his creation that a system of priests must be intermediaries between the people and Allah...which leads to greater centralization.



In Christianity, God is equally unity and diversity. He is One and yet Many. This foundational philosophical concept gave rise to the notion of decentralization...for the neccessity of checks and balances. In Christianity (Protestantism, sorry my Catholic friends) there is the idea that God has entered into creation and became close to His creation. A system of priests were not needed to interceed for man, because God has interceeded Himself. The focus became the indivudual. The State was no longer seen as a link between God and man.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Remember Christians, treat your slaves properly or spooky boogie man will get angry and smite you. Remember, Muslims are evil because they don't treat their slaves as good as we do. Also don't forget who the top Master is because all you are is a bitch slave to him.

Ephesians 6:9 (NIV)

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

 

[Sola_Fide]

Remember Christians, treat your slaves properly or spooky boogie man will get angry and smite you. Remember, Muslims are evil because they don't treat their slaves as good as we do.

Ephesians 6:9 (NIV)

And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him.

Chattel slavery, indentured servitude, and all other kinds of oppression was common in Rome at the time when Paul wrote that. Slaves and slavemasters were becoming Christians.


Christianity was not a militant political movement bent on overturning institutions by force. Rather, Christianity promoted gradual non-violent change from within the hearts of men.

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

Chattel slavery, indentured servitude, and all other kinds of oppression was common in Rome.


Christianity was not militant political movement bent on overturning institutions by force. Rather, Christianity promoted gradual non-violent change from within the hearts of men.

What does ancient Rome have to do with this? I pulled the text from the Disney fairytale book that's still in print today.

 

[Sola_Fide]

*sigh*

Okay son. That's fine. One thing I quit doing a while ago is arguing "religun" on message boards.





Go ahead...knock yourself out man....

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

*sigh*

Okay son. That's fine. One thing I quit doing a while ago is arguing "religun" on message boards.





Go ahead...knock yourself out man....

As I wrote earlier I want MORE Christianity, not even being sarcastic. That way I can lob off some heads when these Bible thumpers get out of line. Hell, bring Muslims in here while you're at it. I'll lob some of their heads off when they screw up too. Doesn't bother me.

Besides, I could use some Christian slaves, these walls don't paint themselves!

 

[Sola_Fide]

Hmmmmm...






Are you high right now kid?

 

[crazyfacedjenkins]

....
Are you high right now kid?

No more than someone who still owns and believes a book that promotes slavery. I always wondered why these JC freaks don't just remove that old testament if they don't want it coming back to bite them in the ass later. Oh yeah, because they need all that anti fag stuff, don't want to be turning the other cheek for any queers.

 

[jmdrake]

You bring up Mosaic Law. The difference is Mosaic Law is not being supported by large segments of Western Society and spread to Muslim countries through political activism and agitation.

Some aspects of Mosaic law are enforced in Israel.

See: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=125673859

Israel is the only country with a Jewish majority. So that's a bit of a straw man argument. The laws against sodomy (enforced in this country until being overturned relatively recently by Lawrence v. Texas) were a watered down throwback to Mosaic law.

It's not being advocated in Western countries like Sharia is in some Muslim majority countries.

There's only one Jewish majority country. Christians don't consider themselves under Mosaic law in general, but there have been influences (sodomy laws).

Even most hardcore church-going Christians (a small minority of the Western population) don't even know what Mosaic Law is.

That's because even Christians who do know what Mosaic law is don't feel they are under it because of the new covenant. Straw man.

Do I thin Sharia law will be imposed in the US? That's not the point. My point is that I'm opposed to Sharia law, and so should all libertarians.

So all libertarians should be concerned about the legal system in other countries? I thought libertarians were non interventionist? Are you going to now advocate for a repeal of the use of Mosaic law in Israel because of how it discriminates against women in divorce?

I don't think Sharia law could be imposed any time soon in the US. But as in all politics, activists will work to have certain allowances and exemptions for Muslims.

If you ever study U.S. family law you'll read a case where a Jewish woman was trying to get the court to force her husband to give her a Jewish divorce. Without a Jewish divorce she couldn't remarry in her Orthodox Jewish community. She lost her case. So it matters not if "attempts" will be made. More recently an attempt by a Muslim man to get out from under a restraining order because under Sharia he was allowed to rape his wife was overturned on appeal. So that attempt failed too. You see there's this little thing you are ignoring called the "establishment clause" of the constitution which prevents religious minorities from having free reign to rewrite the laws to their benefit. Are there some "allowances and exemptions"? Sure. Muslim prisoners for example can request special diets that don't have pork in them. But so can Jews or any other person who doesn't eat certain food because of conscience. Oh, and before you slam Islam for allowing spousal rape, realize that in this Christian country spousal rape was allowed in all states until 1973! Now why is that? Hint, it wasn't because of the "evil Muslims" or Sharia.

However agitators are pressing in many countries throughout the world where it is likely to be imposed.

That's nice. I don't live in the rest of the world. Unless you are trying to change Israeli law, you shouldn't give a rip about Sharia law in other countries. Red herring.