So I just discovered this about Islam

[jmdrake]

Did you just say Khadijah was a Catholic?

jmdrake, why do you keep digging this hole you're in?

That's from the sources I read. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=khadija+catholic What religion do you say she was? Do you deny that she was literate? Anyway, you can't use your own faith, that I don't believe, to "prove" that "illiterate" Mohammed was "revealed" the Koran.

 

[Muwahid]

That's from the sources I read. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=khadija+catholic What religion do you say she was? Do you deny that she was literate? Anyway, you can't use your own faith, that I don't believe, to "prove" that "illiterate" Mohammed was "revealed" the Koran.

What sources? Please cite credible historical sources. (I'll save you time, there are none.)

Khadijah was from a an idolatrous family. She may have been similar to Muhammad ص in that despite polytheist ties, they did not take the so-called lesser gods seriously. We have on hadith in which they argue, over a statue of one of the Pagan Gods: وهو يقول لخديجة أي خديجة والله لا أعبد اللات والعزى والله لا أعبد أبدا قال فتقول خديجة خل اللات خل العزى قال كانت صنمهم التي كانوا يعبدون ثم يضطجعون (He said to Khadijah, What is this Kadijah? What is this? I swear by Allah I've never worshipped Allaat or Al-Uzza, I swear I never did. Khadijah said leave Allaat and Al-Uzza (i.e., lets stop arguing), he said back, these are the statues people use to worship before they sleep!)

So she was very much from polytheistic lineages, and her grandfather was named "Abdul Uzza", slave of al-Uzza, the pagan Goddess.

Even Waraqa bin Naufal wasn't a Catholic lol. There's also no mention of her literacy, she probably wasn't literate. The names of the literate inhabitants were mentioned in another hadith, it was less than 20 people. Anyone who was literate and Muslim, would have been a scribe for Muhammad ص so she was most likely not literate, despite being educated and wealthy. Literacy was not valued as much in this time in Arabia.

See what I've done here? I've laid out historically relevant texts and facts, to illustrate my point. If you can do the same back it may actually progress the conversation.

As of now it seems you're proving my point with every post. You were only able to concoct a "naturalistic" explanation of how Islam was formed, by asserting erroneous information as fact, and your theories are evolving as one is proven wrong after the other.

It started out as Waraqa and Khadijah wrote the Quran... then you realized, they couldn't have because they died before the Qur'an was even close to complete.

Then you said Khadija was a Roman Catholic, and spent decades teaching Muhammad ص from the scriptures, and he took that and ran with it... except she wasn't Roman Catholic whatsoever. So now what? What's next?

And this still doesn't clarify the other points, like the exquisite poetry-- and that's not my own estimation, it was what was mentioned by the Arabs learned in poetry in the time of the prophet. And what about the six other harfs (dialects) of the Qur'an which were revealed? How did Muhammad ص know six other distinct dialects for the Qur'an to be revealed in?

You're desperately trying to string together a theory to make it seem like... pft, it could easily be done, it's laughable to think we'd need a supernatural explanation ... yet I'm still waiting for your natural explanation! (one that is based on at least partially substantiated facts).

 

[jmdrake]

Mwahid, you are using your own belief system to "prove" that someone who doesn't believe your belief system must believe that either Satan or God wrote the Koran. If you don't understand how silly that is as a premise then that's on you. I gave you my sources for Khadija being Catholic. You can look them up. You disagree with them? Fine. Maybe she wasn't. You still haven't addressed the fact that she actually was literate. And considering the number of Jews and Christians living in the middle east at the time of Mohammed, the most likely explanation as to where he heard the stories of Abraham was from some natural source. But if you wish to believe, without any real reason, that the source must have been supernatural, that's up to you.

See what I've done here? I've laid out historically relevant texts and facts, to illustrate my point. If you can do the same back it may actually progress the conversation.

Actually you haven't done that. Historic texts would be a source other than Islam. For example Christians cite the Jewish historian Josephus to validate parts of the Bible. You have not given a similar non-Islamic source to back up any of your claims. Circular reasoning.

 

[Muwahid]

Mwahid, you are using your own belief system to "prove" that someone who doesn't believe your belief system must believe that either Satan or God wrote the Koran. If you don't understand how silly that is as a premise then that's on you. I gave you my sources for Khadija being Catholic. You can look them up. You disagree with them? Fine. Maybe she wasn't. You still haven't addressed the fact that she actually was literate. And considering the number of Jews and Christians living in the middle east at the time of Mohammed, the most likely explanation as to where he heard the stories of Abraham was from some natural source. But if you wish to believe, without any real reason, that the source must have been supernatural, that's up to you.

How am I using my belief system? I'm stating historical facts. Hadiths are not considered supernaturally inspired scripture, they're historical records of events of Muhammad ص and his companions, and their authentication has been deemed more than acceptable by non-Muslim orientalists. So I'm not using my belief system to prove anything.

You also did not cite anything, you posted a google link. I asked for one source, perhaps to an encyclopedia, or from a historian, or Muslim scholars? You did not. I perused the first links on google, there was no credible information (rather laughable websites, too be honest).

I also did address the issue of her literacy, I made an argument it's highly unlikely when there was only something like 16 literate people in all of Mecca that she was one of them. Also the fact she was not a scribe of Muhammad ص enforces this point.

Lastly, there were not many Jews or Christians in Mecca. The Jewish tribes almost exclusively lived in Medina (Bani Aws, Awf, Qaynuqa, Nadir, etc). If not Medina, then further south near Yemen. You would need to find a historical link between a Christian community, or a Jewish community in Mecca to make this claim. You're again, grasping at straws.

 

[jmdrake]

How am I using my belief system? I'm stating historical facts. Hadiths are not considered supernaturally inspired scripture, they're historical records of events of Muhammad ص and his companions, and their authentication has been deemed more than acceptable by non-Muslim orientalists. So I'm not using my belief system to prove anything.

Do you have access to a Hadith that was written by a non Muslim? Because otherwise..... That's the point that I was making about Josephus. He wasn't Christian. So he had no motive to slant his history towards Christianity. I wouldn't say "Well the reason I know Jesus rose from the dead and went to heaven is because Christian historian X said that Mary rose from the dead." At least I wouldn't use that line with a non-Christian.

You also did not cite anything, you posted a google link. I asked for one source, perhaps to an encyclopedia, or from a historian, or Muslim scholars? You did not. I perused the first links on google, there was no credible information (rather laughable websites, too be honest).

Okay. You don't find those sources to be credible independent sources of information. I don't find the Haddiths to be credible independent sources of information. One other thing regarding the Haddiths. In the past when I've seen people attack Islam for being overly violent, some Muslim apologists have claimed the worst stuff is in the Haddiths not the Koran. Seems like trying to have it both ways.

I also did address the issue of her literacy, I made an argument it's highly unlikely when there was only something like 16 literate people in all of Mecca that she was one of them. Also the fact she was not a scribe of Muhammad ص enforces this point.

Lastly, there were not many Jews or Christians in Mecca. The Jewish tribes almost exclusively lived in Medina (Bani Aws, Awf, Qaynuqa, Nadir, etc). If not Medina, then further south near Yemen. You would need to find a historical link between a Christian community, or a Jewish community in Mecca to make this claim. You're again, grasping at straws.

http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-rise-of-islam/
Medina was a city with a very large Jewish population. There were three major Jewish clans who controlled a great deal of the commerce and politics in the town. Therefore, when Mohammed came to Medina, he tailored his religion to make it more attractive to Jews. For instance, he instituted the right of praying toward Jerusalem, the same way that the Jews pray. A few years later, when he caught on that the Jews were not going to become Muslims, he changed it to praying toward Mecca. However, for the first few years, the Muslims prayed facing Jerusalem.

http://www.jewishmag.com/148mag/mohamad_islam_jews/mohamad_islam_jews.htm
The relationship between Mohammad and the Jews was not just a historical event that happened, but rather an important guide for us today to understand the Islamic mind. Mohammad was born approximately 571 C.E. during a period of time that the Jews as well as their pagan Arab neighbors lived in the Arab peninsula. His home town was Mecca which was located on a route that linked Yemen in the south of the Arab peninsula to Egypt and Damascus in the North. The Jews had lived in this region for centuries, some say even before the destruction of the first Temple others say after the destruction of the second Temple.

 

[Muwahid]

Do you have access to a Hadith that was written by a non Muslim? Because otherwise..... That's the point that I was making about Josephus. He wasn't Christian. So he had no motive to slant his history towards Christianity. I wouldn't say "Well the reason I know Jesus rose from the dead and went to heaven is because Christian historian X said that Mary rose from the dead." At least I wouldn't use that line with a non-Christian.

You're rejecting hadiths on no academic basis. You're committing the fallacy ad hominem circumstantial in which you're rejecting information because of a perceived bias, rather than looking at the historical records and finding a rational basis for rejecting it.

If you study the way hadiths were handed down and preserved it becomes clear, while maybe not always being perfect they are very accurate historical records. If you're going to deny any evidence I give because it's from a hadith then there's simply no point debating you will continue to believe fallaciously as ignorance is bliss.

Okay. You don't find those sources to be credible independent sources of information. I don't find the Haddiths to be credible independent sources of information. One other thing regarding the Haddiths. In the past when I've seen people attack Islam for being overly violent, some Muslim apologists have claimed the worst stuff is in the Haddiths not the Koran. Seems like trying to have it both ways.

Interesting how you're now trying to make it seem like a wash. I'm giving bias sources, you're giving bias sources... oh well! No not quite.

The first sources under your link come from sites like thechristiansolution.com, and babylonmysteryreligion.com ... and upon reading the information within them, there are no academic citations, and too be honest they are hardly coherent to anyone educated in Islamic history.

My sources, are from books collected over a millenium ago, which compiled from smaller books, or personal collections of hadiths, each hadith having an isnaad (chain of narration) back to the person who witnessed it. Many of these hadiths are what we call mutawattir, meaning we have numerous records from different people and sources, claiming the same thing, enforcing it's validity and historical basis.

so no it's not a wash my friend. And I personally do not care what other Muslims say that's not part of this debate. If a hadith is brought up (e.g., the goat eating a verse of the quran) but it has issues with its transmission and cannot be verified, then yes we may put it aside and only wish to deal with the most concrete evidence we have. But other than that we accept what's in the saheeh hadiths.

http://www.jewishhistory.org/the-rise-of-islam/
Medina was a city with a very large Jewish population. There were three major Jewish clans who controlled a great deal of the commerce and politics in the town. Therefore, when Mohammed came to Medina[...]

Yeah that's what I said. They lived in Medina. Not Mecca. Muhammad ص preached Islam in Mecca for a decade before going to Medina, full Surahs of the Qur'an were revealed in Mecca. So no Yethribi Jews helped him.

You've still yet to find a link between Muhammad ص and Jewish/Christian scholars. Your best bet was the Ebionite Waraqa, but he was an old blind man by the time Muhammad ص was a prophet and died before Muhammad ص went public with his new religion. So who else was there?

And even if you found a link, again... the exquisite poetry, and the six different dialects... those were the three main points.

The only natural explanation is to have a team of many people, in secret concocting this religion. You would need a Muhammad ص himself as the charismatic leader, a theologian to teach and explain complex theological concepts, you would need Arabic experts, you would need maybe a very good poet to produce the rhythm of the Qur'an

THEN on top of all of this Muhammad ص surely needs to be a trained magician, because there are a plethora of miracles attributed to him.

So what gives?

 

[jmdrake]

You're rejecting hadiths on no academic basis. You're committing the fallacy ad hominem circumstantial in which you're rejecting information because of a perceived bias, rather than looking at the historical records and finding a rational basis for rejecting it.

1) I'm not "rejecting hadiths". I just don't accept them as independent sources of history. Do you not understand what the word "rejection" means? The hadiths are fine for saying what Muslims believe about Islam. (Although again I have seen Muslims distance themselves from the hadiths when Christians use the contents of them to attack Islam).

2) You apparently don't know what the word "ad hominem" means either. That means "attack the person". A hadith is not a person. And pointing out that the hadiths are not independent sources of history about Islam because they were written by Muslims is not even an attack. I said Islam is false because Mohammed married a little girl that would be an ad hominem.

Again, I would not put forward the writing of a Christian historian as independent proof to a non Christian that the Bible is true. The non Christian would simply say "Of course a Christian is going to say Jesus rose from the grave. That's the definition of being a Christian".

If you study the way hadiths were handed down and preserved it becomes clear, while maybe not always being perfect they are very accurate historical records. If you're going to deny any evidence I give because it's from a hadith then there's simply no point debating you will continue to believe fallaciously as ignorance is bliss.

Handed down from one Muslim to another Muslim. That means we are not talking about and independent source of history the way Josephus is a independent source of Christian history. But hey, keep up with the insults. It shows you understand your argument is false.

Interesting how you're now trying to make it seem like a wash. I'm giving bias sources, you're giving bias sources... oh well! No not quite.

Why do you not understand that a Muslim source of history is, by definition, not independent?

Yeah that's what I said. They lived in Medina. Not Mecca. Muhammad ص preached Islam in Mecca for a decade before going to Medina, full Surahs of the Qur'an were revealed in Mecca. So no Yethribi Jews helped him.

No. The second source said Mecca. Read it again.

His home town was Mecca which was located on a route that linked Yemen in the south of the Arab peninsula to Egypt and Damascus in the North. The Jews had lived in this region for centuries, some say even before the destruction of the first Temple others say after the destruction of the second Temple.

The Jews had lived in this region Mecca for centuries. Nice try though.

More on the Jews of Mecca.

http://www.dangoor.com/71page33.html
Before Islam, they dominated many of the main oasis in the West of Arabia and had also settled in the present-day Gulf States - Bahrain in particular. There was even a tiny Jewish community with its own cemetery in Mecca. Curiously enough, Naim Dangoor told me that a Saudi Arabian father of many children from the Gulf area visited him with his family, about 8 years ago to ask for help in emigrating to Israel. He claimed to be one of a large group of Muslims of Jewish origin who had always maintained a separate identity, praying together and marrying only amongst themselves. Naim believed the story and contacted the Israeli Embassy on the man's behalf - but without success.

 

[pessimist]

was this thread an insidious plot of the cunning crow to spawn a Christian vs Muslim religious flame war?

vengeance will be hers!

 

[Dr.3D]

was this thread an insidious plot of the cunning crow to spawn a Christian vs Muslim religious flame war?

vengeance will be hers!

If it was, I hope the crow get's banned.

 

[pessimist]

If it was, I hope the crow get's banned.

Let me explain...

- A whimsical, spur of the moment thread is made.
- Thread turns into some boring religious debate between an apparent Muslim and an apparent Christian.
- Seizing the opportunity, he plays off the high intelligence/cunning/playful mischievous of the crow hinting that this was the plan all along.
- he then posts a pic of The Morrigan- the Goddess of war and death to insinuate that she sent her crows to whip up a religious forum war.

How could you not get that?

 

[Dr.3D]

Let me explain...

- A whimsical, spur of the moment thread is made.
- Thread turns into some boring religious debate between an apparent Muslim and an apparent Christian.
- Seizing the opportunity, he plays off the high intelligence/cunning/playful mischievous of the crow hinting that this was the plan along.
- he then posts a pic of The Morrigan- the Goddess of war and death to insinuate that she sent her crows to whip up a religious forum war.

How could you not get that?

The ignorance of the crow as to thinking he is intelligent for doing such a thing is what makes me think we have a kid doing stupid things to show how smart he is.

 

[Miss Annie]

was this thread an insidious plot of the cunning crow to spawn a Christian vs Muslim religious flame war?

vengeance will be hers!

If it was, I hope the crow get's banned.

Let me explain...

- A whimsical, spur of the moment thread is made.
- Thread turns into some boring religious debate between an apparent Muslim and an apparent Christian.
- Seizing the opportunity, he plays off the high intelligence/cunning/playful mischievous of the crow hinting that this was the plan all along.
- he then posts a pic of The Morrigan- the Goddess of war and death to insinuate that she sent her crows to whip up a religious forum war.

How could you not get that?

The ignorance of the crow as to thinking he is intelligent for doing such a thing is what makes me think we have a kid doing stupid things to show how smart he is.

I think what he is saying .......... Is that he didn't do it intentionally .......... But notice the irony?

 

[Dr.3D]

I think what he is saying .......... Is that he didn't do it intentionally .......... But notice the irony?

Would have been better to not say anything at all.

Perhaps for both of us. Then your post wouldn't have been necessary.

 

[pessimist]

The ignorance of the crow as to thinking he is intelligent for doing such a thing is what makes me think we have a kid doing stupid things to show how smart he is.

Lol. You're not getting it.

1.) This thread was made on an impulse with zero intent.
2.) It turned into a 'serious' religious discussion completely unrelated to the OP.
3.) Noticing this...he decides to adopt the playful behavior of the crow, claiming that this was the plan all along (it wasn't).
4.) I then use a photo to illustrate the PHANTOM QUEEN was behind it all, as she sent her crows to whip up the religious forum war.

Okay, never mind. You're not getting it. I am only amusing myself here. haha.

 

[pessimist]

I think what he is saying .......... Is that he didn't do it intentionally .......... But notice the irony?

something like that. lol

 

[Dr.3D]

Lol. You're not getting it.

1.) This thread was made on an impulse with zero intent.
2.) It turned into a 'serious' religious discussion completely unrelated to the OP.
3.) Noticing this...he decides to adopt the playful behavior of the crow, claiming that this was the plan all along (it wasn't).
4.) I then use a photo to illustrate the PHANTOM QUEEN was behind it all, as she sent her crows to whip up the religious forum war.

Okay, never mind. You're not getting it. I am only amusing myself here. haha.

Oh I got it, I just didn't want it.

Have fun...

 

[Muwahid]

1) I'm not "rejecting hadiths". I just don't accept them as independent sources of history. Do you not understand what the word "rejection" means? The hadiths are fine for saying what Muslims believe about Islam. (Although again I have seen Muslims distance themselves from the hadiths when Christians use the contents of them to attack Islam).

2) You apparently don't know what the word "ad hominem" means either. That means "attack the person". A hadith is not a person. And pointing out that the hadiths are not independent sources of history about Islam because they were written by Muslims is not even an attack. I said Islam is false because Mohammed married a little girl that would be an ad hominem.

Again, I would not put forward the writing of a Christian historian as independent proof to a non Christian that the Bible is true. The non Christian would simply say "Of course a Christian is going to say Jesus rose from the grave. That's the definition of being a Christian".

Handed down from one Muslim to another Muslim. That means we are not talking about and independent source of history the way Josephus is a independent source of Christian history. But hey, keep up with the insults. It shows you understand your argument is false.

This is what you said:

Do you have access to a Hadith that was written by a non Muslim? Because otherwise..... That's the point that I was making about Josephus. He wasn't Christian. So he had no motive to slant his history towards Christianity

Applying this logic to Muslims is the fallacy ad hominem circumstantial. It is a logical fallacy, therefore any conclusion based on a perceived bias is not a rational conclusion.

I can also see that you're desperately trying to sway the conversation in another direction because you failed to construct a naturalistic substantiated theory to how the Qur'an was made with all the facts we know about it.

As for you trying to prove Jews lived in Mecca, I didn't say there were none. Waraqa bin Naufal could be considered a Messianic Jew, but there were no major Jewish tribes. The source doesn't say Jews lived in Mecca, it says Mecca encountered Jews due to it's trading routes, which is also true. None of this correlates to Muhammad being in contact with Jewish/Christian scholar(s) for decades to learn the Abrahamic scriptures. (all done in total secret). (this makes it more complex because the people involved with teaching Muhammad would need to have nefarious intent as well, it's not as simple as just finding a scriptural scholar to teach you).

So you're still grasping at straws here. Find me the Jew he learned from... have you ever even read the Sirah's of Muhammad ص?

 

[Muwahid]

- Thread turns into some boring religious debate between an apparent Muslim and an apparent Christian.

 

[Dr.3D]

What do you expect? He's a pessimist.

 

[RJB]

I think what he is saying .......... Is that he didn't do it intentionally .......... But notice the irony?

Someone who posts that we should love our neighbor could be accused of starting a flame war on this forum