This is VERY good advice! And it doesn't matter what you think of evangelicals; Dr. Paul needs their votes. We are selling our candidate; if you were selling any other product, would you hesitate to appeal to the buyer's values and concerns just because you didn't agree with them? You'd starve to death as a salesman! Remember: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
So are we done ignoring the Evangelicals?
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This is VERY good advice! And it doesn't matter what you think of evangelicals; Dr. Paul needs their votes. We are selling our candidate; if you were selling any other product, would you hesitate to appeal to the buyer's values and concerns just because you didn't agree with them? You'd starve to death as a salesman! Remember: IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!
That's probably for the best, because you're only hurting our efforts here with such an attitude.
You know, maybe some Evangelicals have been reading this thread wondering if they should support Ron,
and people like you are only driving them away.
Maybe, try to reach people you CAN relate to - and stop worrying about those you can not relate to,
and leave those to people who CAN relate to them.
You certainly have the right to say things that could cost Ron Paul votes, but why would you want to? With 8 posts to your name, I can only wonder.
I've given generously to the Ron Paul campaign. Don't question my support for the guy - I am a libertarian and Ron Paul is the only presidential candidate who isn't a long-shot that I've ever supported. He has restored my hope for this nation.
Every time you lose votes from one group, you gain them from another. But I should remind you that my opinions will not cause Ron Paul to lose votes - this is the same propagandistic speech that we hate so much from the mainstream media and the neo-conservatives. The fact that die-hard atheists and radical Christians can both be supportive of the same candidate should bring more to the campaign, not less.
Thunderbolt
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Do you really think that Ron Paul can beat Huckabee in a faith race? Huckabee is a minister. If you start pushing him in this direction you lose all the rest of us who that stuff really turns off and there are a lot more non evangelicals. You cannot pit Ron Paul up against Huckabee on the issue of religion and abortion.
Huck would happily turn this entire country into a Christian nation and force religion down the throats of every school child in America. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck will be pleased to start wars in Christ's name. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck will support Israel because Christ was born there. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck would stack the court with judges who will ignore the Constitution just to make all abortions illegal. That will please the evangelicals.
Huck would happily pass a law that says that evolution cannot be taught in schools. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck would be glad to pass a law that says that the ten commandments must be in every courthouse in America. This would please the evangelicals.
Huckabee will always put Christ before the Constitution. This would please the evangelicals.
How do you think Ron Paul stacks up on any of those issues?
Moreover, how do you think most of us who support him would feel if he took any one of these stances?
Ron Paul did not do well in Iowa because Iowans expect and demand a LOT of face time from their candidate. Ron Paul barely set foot in the state while Huckabee practically lived there. Ron Paul lost the straw poll for the same reason. Clearly, they made a decision to give up on Iowa. If they didn't do it on purpose then they lost because they know nothing at all about politics in Iowa because they have inexperienced children running the campaign. I prefer to think the reason was the former.
Huck would happily turn this entire country into a Christian nation and force religion down the throats of every school child in America. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck will be pleased to start wars in Christ's name. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck will support Israel because Christ was born there. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck would stack the court with judges who will ignore the Constitution just to make all abortions illegal. That will please the evangelicals.
Huck would happily pass a law that says that evolution cannot be taught in schools. This would please the evangelicals.
Huck would be glad to pass a law that says that the ten commandments must be in every courthouse in America. This would please the evangelicals.
Huckabee will always put Christ before the Constitution. This would please the evangelicals.
How do you think Ron Paul stacks up on any of those issues?
Moreover, how do you think most of us who support him would feel if he took any one of these stances?
Ron Paul did not do well in Iowa because Iowans expect and demand a LOT of face time from their candidate. Ron Paul barely set foot in the state while Huckabee practically lived there. Ron Paul lost the straw poll for the same reason. Clearly, they made a decision to give up on Iowa. If they didn't do it on purpose then they lost because they know nothing at all about politics in Iowa because they have inexperienced children running the campaign. I prefer to think the reason was the former.
Thunderbolt
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You know Mark, I don't have a signature that is displayed on every post and pushed down people's throats that may turn people off and make them run from the forums. You do. So, perhaps you should look in the mirror. I don't give a damn what your personal beliefs are, but when you try to push them on others with every post then you are doing exactly what you accuse that poor kid of doing.
Think about it. What if I believed in the devil and had a signature hailing Satan and his wonderful ways and included satanic verses? Think that might turn someone off?
UziSprayTF
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No, not beat, but he does need to eat into that support. Many people like myself are deeply Christian and support Ron Paul, and for good reason. It doesn't say blessed are the warmongers in the Bible, it says blessed are the peace makers.
Well, I wouldn't argue the point with you and try to persuade those who believe the way you do because I know nothing about it.
I wouldn't say things that would drive them away.
I would leave them to you to persuade to vote for Dr Paul. And I would stick with the people I can relate to. We need both.
If you handle those you can identify with, I'll handle those I can identify with, and let's agree not to de-rail either of our efforts
by ruining each other's threads that deal with our individual strengths. It's pretty simple really.
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wildflower
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I think you're misunderstanding something very important. Just because someone says they're a christian doesn't automatically mean that they are. Jesus warned about wolves in sheep's clothing or people who may take the name but their actions say something very different.
So all the evangelical or other Christian voters out there need to know that there are a number of things about Huckabee that should be a red flag to them - his advisor is the head of the CFR, he has lied about things such as the cross in his ad, there is evidence he has abused his power as governor of Arkansas, he seems to have overlooked corruption in Arkansas, etc, etc.
In other words - they need to be reminded that politicians will USE "faith" as a way to get votes, but don't fall for it! Huckabee is a huckster.
So I do think we need to reach out to evangelicals or people thinking about supporting Huckabee. Because the way I see it (as a Christian) is that Dr. Paul is the real deal. He doesn't wave his faith in people's faces, but instead, he is humble, he is honest and sincere, he has been consistent, he is against unjust war, etc.... all those things back up his christianity. I think we should use the endorsement of Chuck Baldwin to reach Christians.
And as Mark said, if you can't relate, then let others who can relate do it. But don't alienate and turn off potential voters by attacking them - that is totally counterproductive. (not saying that to you, but to atheists in general)
UziSprayTF
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Exactly. We have hard core liberals that support Ron Paul for just ONE issue: The War!
Why not hit a 30% of America with points that are true? if we get a third of them our support will double in numbers and organization.
I know I'm a very libertarian leaning republican, but if my father cares more about the debt than the war on drugs I don't try to sell him on legalizing pot I point out how much money the neo-cons have wasted (I finally got him when I said that Bill Clinton paid off more debt than any Republican I could think of). With my mom (very very Christian) it was the fact that Ron Paul has been married so long and opposed abortion his whole life that one her over. Know your market.
And actually, once I have a few more pages ready, I was going to change my sig. with some links.
And, all I have are simple words like "prayer" and "church".
I don't really see how those two simple words are pushing anything down someone's throat.
I have a very simple prayer site for Dr Paul,
and I have a nonprofit Incorporated Organization that happens to be Religious oriented that I have a chipin for, that I link to.
Just like so many other people do with their sites and chipins.
Just because mine are the type they are, does not make them any more "pushing down throats" than anyone else's.
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JohnnyWrath
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Ron Paul supporters want Ron Paul to avoid being mainstream, but magically win over the main stream republican voters....80% of republican voters in Iowa think the terrorist boogie man is coming to0 get us, yet people flip out if he even uses the word terrorist....The Republican Christians want pro-life, but people flip out every time he mentions being a Christian....
You can NOT win over the mainstream republican vote if we bitch every time Ron Paul tries to appeal to them on issues....too many supporters want him to take on the mainstream as if in a fight, but then expect mainstream voters to magically "wake up" and refuse mainstream thinking...it won't work.
You can NOT win over the mainstream republican vote if we bitch every time Ron Paul tries to appeal to them on issues....too many supporters want him to take on the mainstream as if in a fight, but then expect mainstream voters to magically "wake up" and refuse mainstream thinking...it won't work.
You are indeed a wise wildflower.
Have you seen the page I made that has the endorsement by Chuck and the Pastor's Forum Chuck introduced Ron at?
---> http://ronpaul.cc/video/ronpaul/Chuc...n_Ron_Paul.htm
(I've got more work to do on the page - but it's okay to send to someone as it is)
It also has a audio interview with Chuck and Ron plus Ron's statement of Faith and press release about his "Sanctity of Life Bill"
And I've got a page with specifically a comparison with Huck.
here: http://ronpaul.cc/images/Ron/Christi...tian_Flyer.htm
Reagan talked about God
I realize that Ron Paul follows Reagan's stated practice of not wanting to talk about his religious beliefs in public, but in reality, Reagan mentioned God quite a bit in his speeches--especially after he got shot. (I can provide links to quotes if anyone doesn't believe it)
I wish campaign HQ would come up with a handout for churches and also insert a few references to God in his speeches. I don't think it's 'pandering' as some have stated. It's not a lie to make honest statements about his faith.
I am a Christian but I'm not comfortable around those who come on too strong about religion. However, I put up with them when I have to and getting votes for Ron Paul is one of those times. I don't even agree with Ron Paul on every single issue but he would agree with my right to disagree. It's called freedom.
I think those of us who just refuse to interact with others (evangelicals, old people, etc) who aren't 100% in line with their own personal beliefs are being ridiculously short-sighted, immature and close minded. More importantly, they're missing out on getting votes for Ron Paul.
I realize that Ron Paul follows Reagan's stated practice of not wanting to talk about his religious beliefs in public, but in reality, Reagan mentioned God quite a bit in his speeches--especially after he got shot. (I can provide links to quotes if anyone doesn't believe it)
I wish campaign HQ would come up with a handout for churches and also insert a few references to God in his speeches. I don't think it's 'pandering' as some have stated. It's not a lie to make honest statements about his faith.
I am a Christian but I'm not comfortable around those who come on too strong about religion. However, I put up with them when I have to and getting votes for Ron Paul is one of those times. I don't even agree with Ron Paul on every single issue but he would agree with my right to disagree. It's called freedom.
I think those of us who just refuse to interact with others (evangelicals, old people, etc) who aren't 100% in line with their own personal beliefs are being ridiculously short-sighted, immature and close minded. More importantly, they're missing out on getting votes for Ron Paul.
Vox Populi
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It's actually pretty simple. Ron Paul needs more Christian votes, and they can easily be obtained if Christians just know about him. He's a doctor who's delivered 4,000+ babies, a vietnam USAF veteran, been married 50+ years, and he's a good Christian man trying to do what's right for America (for a change) which will make a better WORLD for us and our children.
We should stick to what we're good at
Ron Paul is republican. This alone, in the eyes of many, is enough to lay out his positions on issues that evangelicals seem to care about. RP will gain nothing by trying to out-Huckster the Huckster. Going in that direction will take time and energy, and will not be particularly fruitful exercise. RP doesn't flout his religion b/c he's too much of a Christian to do that, and this is not what RP is good at.
What RP is good at and what makes him distinctive among republicans is his credible stances against wars and against a large federal government. No one can compete with him on these issues.
I don't think anyone here should ignore evangelical votes, but it will be very difficult to change RP into an 'evangelical candidate'. Also, people have enough of those to choose from. We should stick to what we're best at rather than expend our limited energy on remaking RP in the Huckster's image.
Ron Paul is republican. This alone, in the eyes of many, is enough to lay out his positions on issues that evangelicals seem to care about. RP will gain nothing by trying to out-Huckster the Huckster. Going in that direction will take time and energy, and will not be particularly fruitful exercise. RP doesn't flout his religion b/c he's too much of a Christian to do that, and this is not what RP is good at.
What RP is good at and what makes him distinctive among republicans is his credible stances against wars and against a large federal government. No one can compete with him on these issues.
I don't think anyone here should ignore evangelical votes, but it will be very difficult to change RP into an 'evangelical candidate'. Also, people have enough of those to choose from. We should stick to what we're best at rather than expend our limited energy on remaking RP in the Huckster's image.
This touches on what I posted in another thread.
I think it would be VERY productive if we all branched out into groups to work the areas we're specialized in.
Like, anti-war, anti-tax, anti-big government, religious or non-religious issues ect.
Deal with what we know, and let others who know areas we don't know about deal with them.
And stop the bickering over issues we don't know about. The bickering hurts us, it doesn't help us. It only drives people away.
JohnnyWrath
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It doesn't matter as much in the rest of the country.
Thunderbolt
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Well Mark, if you aren't trying to push it down someone's throat then why have a signature? Of course you are trying to push the church. In fact, you have a link to a chip in to give money to a church. What you think if I had a chip in to help Hitler, or Satan, or Buddah, or any other particular group? I can bet you a ton of money that someone on this board would be offended.
Since I am trying to reach the most number of Paul supporters as possible, I try not to offend anyone. But you were the one throwing stones in your glass house. I just pointed it out.
And marketing to Christians is not the same as marketing to evangelicals. They are a very special sect of Christianity. You cannot call all Christians evangelicals.
The characteristics of Evangelicalism as defined by David Bebbington, in his study of British evangelicalism, are known as the Bebbington Quadrilateral, [1], the four characteristics of evangelicals are :
1. Conversionism - Emphasis on the conversion experience, also called being saved, or new birth or born again after John 3:3. Thus evangelicals often refer to themselves as born-again Christians. This experience is said to be received by "faith alone" and to be given by God as the result of "grace alone".
2. Biblicism - The Protestant canon of the Bible, as God's revelation to humanity, is the primary source of religious authority. Thus, the doctrine of sola scriptura is often emphasized. Bible prophecy, especially as interpreted according to dispensationalism, is often emphasized as well.
3. Activism - Encouragement of evangelism—the act of persuading others of one's beliefs—in organized missionary work or by personal encounters and relationships with others.
4. Crucicentrism - A central focus on Christ's redeeming work on the cross as the only means for salvation and the forgiveness of sins.
If this is the crowd you now want to pitch to, then re-read my post above where I explain why this crowd and the typical Ron Paul crowd don't mix well. Ron Paul preaches non-interference and letting people live their lives the way they want. He does not try to persuade others of his beliefs. If he did I think he would lose most of the people on this forum.
I also think that if Ron Paul started saying that people were sinners and the ONLY way to redemption was to focus on Christ's actions on the cross I can guarantee you would lose a lot of the folks you have here.
Evangelicals have a very narrow focus of acceptability. Huckabee will play well with that crowd because I believe he probably believes all of the four mentioned criteria. Ron Paul however, will not play well with that crowd. If you try to force him into that box, 1. you are lying; and 2. he can't hold a candle to Huckabee.
So why try?
That is not to say that you can't sell him to Christians, just not evangelicals. And I wouldn't make it a part of any ads that you run because you only have a few seconds to say something and to waste that on his being Christian when they are all Christians is to lose precious air time. Why not just say he is for lower taxes too? Then he can really sound like all the rest of them.
Ron Paul is special. Unique. He is not unique because he is a white Christian man running for the President of the U.S. If you try to sell him as such, you will lose because there is no reason to vote for him.
Tell me, seriously, is the number one reason you are voting for Ron Paul because he is a Christian? If so, then why did you pick Ron Paul?
If it is a requirement, then you are in luck, no matter which candidate you pick you get a Christian. So again, why Ron Paul?
If you answer anything else, such as his beliefs on liberty, the Constitution, freedom, smaller government, etc. then don't you think we should try to sell him on the basis of those reasons?
Since I am trying to reach the most number of Paul supporters as possible, I try not to offend anyone. But you were the one throwing stones in your glass house. I just pointed it out.
And marketing to Christians is not the same as marketing to evangelicals. They are a very special sect of Christianity. You cannot call all Christians evangelicals.
The characteristics of Evangelicalism as defined by David Bebbington, in his study of British evangelicalism, are known as the Bebbington Quadrilateral, [1], the four characteristics of evangelicals are :
1. Conversionism - Emphasis on the conversion experience, also called being saved, or new birth or born again after John 3:3. Thus evangelicals often refer to themselves as born-again Christians. This experience is said to be received by "faith alone" and to be given by God as the result of "grace alone".
2. Biblicism - The Protestant canon of the Bible, as God's revelation to humanity, is the primary source of religious authority. Thus, the doctrine of sola scriptura is often emphasized. Bible prophecy, especially as interpreted according to dispensationalism, is often emphasized as well.
3. Activism - Encouragement of evangelism—the act of persuading others of one's beliefs—in organized missionary work or by personal encounters and relationships with others.
4. Crucicentrism - A central focus on Christ's redeeming work on the cross as the only means for salvation and the forgiveness of sins.
If this is the crowd you now want to pitch to, then re-read my post above where I explain why this crowd and the typical Ron Paul crowd don't mix well. Ron Paul preaches non-interference and letting people live their lives the way they want. He does not try to persuade others of his beliefs. If he did I think he would lose most of the people on this forum.
I also think that if Ron Paul started saying that people were sinners and the ONLY way to redemption was to focus on Christ's actions on the cross I can guarantee you would lose a lot of the folks you have here.
Evangelicals have a very narrow focus of acceptability. Huckabee will play well with that crowd because I believe he probably believes all of the four mentioned criteria. Ron Paul however, will not play well with that crowd. If you try to force him into that box, 1. you are lying; and 2. he can't hold a candle to Huckabee.
So why try?
That is not to say that you can't sell him to Christians, just not evangelicals. And I wouldn't make it a part of any ads that you run because you only have a few seconds to say something and to waste that on his being Christian when they are all Christians is to lose precious air time. Why not just say he is for lower taxes too? Then he can really sound like all the rest of them.
Ron Paul is special. Unique. He is not unique because he is a white Christian man running for the President of the U.S. If you try to sell him as such, you will lose because there is no reason to vote for him.
Tell me, seriously, is the number one reason you are voting for Ron Paul because he is a Christian? If so, then why did you pick Ron Paul?
If it is a requirement, then you are in luck, no matter which candidate you pick you get a Christian. So again, why Ron Paul?
If you answer anything else, such as his beliefs on liberty, the Constitution, freedom, smaller government, etc. then don't you think we should try to sell him on the basis of those reasons?
ionlyknowy
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Yeah, I agree... Ron Paul should talk more about his faith... BUT if he pushes it too hard at this point it will be seen as bad pandering in light of Hucks recent success by pandering to Christians. He beat us to it.
Now all we can do is throw it out there, but not press the issue.
I didn't see your post before I posted last. I see you have the basically the same idea.
If I'm good at math, and bad at cooking, I'm not going to try to teach cooking, I'm going to stick with math.
And I'm not going to interject myself into a conversation about cooking.
Same with the issues.
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