Small Debate - quick response?

[cooker263]

"Capitalism is usually accompanied by cronyism. Any organization whose primary objective is to turn a profit is going to try to influence anything that affects their p&l, including government. When we have had administrations whose stated goal is less regulation, there has been a tremendous opportunity and this results in cronyism and corruption. I'd cite bush, Reagan, Harding, etc. We need something to balance the power of accumulated wealth and government, though flawed, is the only thing we've come up with so far. Our constitution says "we the people," but with decisions like citizens united, it seems like our political system represents dollars more than voters. I don't think we can exclude the excesses of capitalism as not capitalism. I think we need to acknowledge that any system has its deficiencies and find some way to work around them. If you say that the average consumer will research each product that they buy and boycott those that use child labor, polute our land and water, etc. I guess you just have more faith in people than I do. And I don't really think that the courts are the answer because in many cases he who wins a legal case is he who can hire the best legal team."

Anyone have any quick points? Please don't spend much time on it if you do - obviously a lot to focus on right now w/ the campaign. I know I have the ammo I'm just tired & lazy right now.

 

[CBC4L]

No system is perfect, but look at the alternatives. If we actually stuck to the laws and had a good tar and feathering when representatives exceeded their authority, we wouldn't have to rely on the courts. Government should always fear the people. Right now, people fear the government.

 

[Inny Binny]

Well I think they're right - any power system will inevitably attract wealth and corruption. That's a good reason to abolish the power structure rather than trying to reform it.

 

[Acala]

disconnect

He is correct that self-interested individuals (including those inevitably filling government roles) will try to develop crony capitalism. However, crony capitalism depends on the power of government to interfere with the freedom of individuals to compete and with the power to take money from one person and give it to another. Those are the tools of crony capitalism. Deny those tools to government and you can't have crony capitalism. This quote suggests that giving MORE of those powers to government will prevent crony capitalism. There is no example in history of that happening that I know of. The opposite is true.

He seems to be mixing up two arguments - the one against crony capitalism and the one against unrestrained capitalism. Those are two different situations. Crony capitalism (or fascism) can only exist in an environment of government regulation. The absence of government regulation leaves the door open for supposed excesses of capitalism, but those are overcome by consumer freedom of choice and charity.

 

[Steven Douglas]

He is correct that self-interested individuals (including those inevitably filling government roles) will try to develop crony capitalism. However, crony capitalism depends on the power of government to interfere with the freedom of individuals to compete and with the power to take money from one person and give it to another. Those are the tools of crony capitalism. Deny those tools to government and you can't have crony capitalism. This quote suggests that giving MORE of those powers to government will prevent crony capitalism. There is no example in history of that happening that I know of. The opposite is true.

He seems to be mixing up two arguments - the one against crony capitalism and the one against unrestrained capitalism. Those are two different situations. Crony capitalism (or fascism) can only exist in an environment of government regulation. The absence of government regulation leaves the door open for supposed excesses of capitalism, but those are overcome by consumer freedom of choice and charity.

Nicely stated. His beginning with the unqualified "Capitalism gives rise to..." says that it might as well be Michael Moore speaking, when he attacks crony capitalism without calling it that, while appealing to once-upon-a-time free market capitalism, which he refuses to label as such.

The end of his first sentence, "...is going to try to influence anything that affects their p&l, including government." is not an indictment of capitalism, or even "crony capitalism", but a failure of GOVERNMENT. Only. As you said, absent those government regulations on which crony capitalism is founded and thrives, there would be no crony capitalism. The capitalist is doing what many capitalists do, always have done, and always will try to do. The government that is swayed and compromised by it, on the other hand, is NOT doing what is expected of government. There is no need whatsoever to give government a pass, as if elected officials were weak and easily influenced - while capitalists were the powerful, enticing devils who need to be controlled by -- oh, that's right -- government, which did not do its job in the first place.

It is for that reason that I don't even like the term crony capitalism, to be honest, because capitalism becomes the operative word. Like saying "bad capitalism", without implicating the government that was rented or bought, which gave rise to it in the first place.

 

[Kade]

"Capitalism is usually accompanied by cronyism. Any organization whose primary objective is to turn a profit is going to try to influence anything that affects their p&l, including government. When we have had administrations whose stated goal is less regulation, there has been a tremendous opportunity and this results in cronyism and corruption. I'd cite bush, Reagan, Harding, etc. We need something to balance the power of accumulated wealth and government, though flawed, is the only thing we've come up with so far. Our constitution says "we the people," but with decisions like citizens united, it seems like our political system represents dollars more than voters. I don't think we can exclude the excesses of capitalism as not capitalism. I think we need to acknowledge that any system has its deficiencies and find some way to work around them. If you say that the average consumer will research each product that they buy and boycott those that use child labor, polute our land and water, etc. I guess you just have more faith in people than I do. And I don't really think that the courts are the answer because in many cases he who wins a legal case is he who can hire the best legal team."

Very, very odd. I wrote something almost exactly like this a few years ago... this person is someone I already know, or would like to meet.

 

[Bossobass]

If the author enjoys his personal computer, all assembly line products, air travel, the radio, telephones, incandescent light, the internet, baseball, rock & roll, razor shavers, ATMs, blue jeans or the machines on which they're sewn, along with endless other innovations and inventions, then he prefers capitalism over any other system ever devised by man.

Instead of writing to decry the success of mafia-style criminal behavior, which has corrupted every system since ancient Egypt, one might better spend one's time recalling corrupt representatives and pressuring the rest of them to prosecute fraud... you know, be more innovative and inventive.

Bosso