Should the line about student visas be removed from the new immigration ad?

[apc3161]

So do you advocate that we let anyone into this country? If we are going to bring the troops home from all other countries, how do you propose that we defend our country? The immigration from the days of old is quite different than that of today.

When the hell did I say that? I propose we let anyone into this country who would make the country a better place.

Dr. Paul is right when it comes to incentives. The immigration problem would be a non-issue if it wasn't for the free medicare, medicaid, social security, welfare, and other social programs that american taxpayers must foot the bill for.

For one, Americans would be less pissed off because they wouldn't have to pay for such policies, and two, immigrants would have less of an incentive to come. Only the immigrants who really wanted to study and work hard would come.

I advocate that we enforce the duration periods of the visas we actually hand out and make sure that people who should leave the country do so. What I do not advocate is collective punishment. We shouldn't punish every student from a certain country that wants to come here and study just because a few radicals who happen to be from such a country decided to commit terrorist acts.

How are we supposed to spread our message of peace and freedom through example if we do not let those who would be willing to listen the right to come here? This would effectively be silencing the more moderate voices from certain countries and giving the more radical voices the perfect weapon, an uneducated populace who is highly susceptible to propaganda.

 

[CMoore]

Immigration policy must now be considered a matter of national security. America has the same sovereign right to defend itself against enemies when the enemy attacks us from within. Common sense tells us that we currently should not be admitting aliens from nations that sponsor or harbor terrorists, or from nations with whom we are at war. There were many fine German-Americans in the U.S. during World War II, but we certainly did not allow open immigration from Germany until hostilities had ceased and loyalties could be determined. While we generally should welcome people from around the world whenever possible, we cannot allow potential enemies or terrorists to enter the country now under any circumstances. Legislation I introduced in the fall would restrict immigration, including the granting of heavily abused student visas, by individuals from nations listed as terrorist threats by the State department.

Jan 7, 2002

Dr. Paul is clearly on record about this. Anyone who is upset about this issue at this point has not researched the candidate before climbing aboard.

It seems reasonable to me. Immigration is the one area where he has big differences with libertarians generally. However, I agree that a nation without secure borders is no nation at all.

 

[TheEvilDetector]

What they do after they are allowed into the country is not to be legislated. This is not like we will not allow Japanese, Chinese and Indians into the country to attend our Universities. I highly doubt we will exclude any European countries, neither eastern nor western bloc. I do not see any problem with Russia and a good exchange program in the sciences is probably warranted given the advancements beyond the US in some areas of technology and research.

IMO, from an intelligence oriented standpont the first to get cut access from regime countries who are known to have destructive attitudes towards American interests are the student aged populace as they are easily the most idealistic, and can be manipulated negatively due to lack of life experience. It is wiser when diplomatically attempting to rein in rogue regimes without the use of military force or regime change through psyops is to negotiate with and allow businessmen to enter and leave the country under scrutiny. Allow the development of contracts without the interference of sanctions. Once they have a vested interest in business with Americans they will take that back to their country and initiate change to protect business interests, which as well generates revenue for their home country economy.

Once a country shows good will and its police forces have the local version of international organised crime under cintrol then its student aged ppulation can apply for visas. However the US of A will be an immensely popular country again with a Paul Presidency so t may do well for other countries to set up their own institutes of hgher learning just so they do ot lose a generation to inadequate skills and knowledge acquisition. Like has happened here." Leave it to them furrinners..Thems smarter than us here folk".. It is time America started educating Americans again.

best Regards
Randy

Hi Randy,

If we deny student visas wholesale for political reasons (eg "terrorist nation") we are making a choice that allows unscrupulous

foreign political leaders to hold hostage educational choices of millions of innocent young men and women around the world

and further their agenda by preventing any possibility of these young people of gaining a different point of view.

Allowing these people to have a chance to come in and educating these people (at their expense of course)

and exposing them to American values (liberty, peace, tolerance, prosperity, inalienable rights) is the best way to make changes in their country.

We know that sanctions, bombing and similar isolationary tactics (ie. wholesale visa denials) hurt innocent civilians the most.

Have we learned nothing at all from our mistakes? I believe that we cannot prevail against terrorism this way.

Determined terrorists will always find a way in. Violent criminals will always find a way in Randy.

Please consider this.

Kind Regards,

T.E.D

PS. I just watched a very good movie "This Is England", which showed a very ugly side of xenophobia.

 

[apc3161]

He is not saying that we should "do away" with student visas permanently; he specifically says, "restrict" (doesn't mean "abolish"), mentions "heavily abused" student visas by individuals "from nations listed as terrorist threats" by the State department.

The advertisement, which potentially millions of people will see says, "NO MORE student visas from terrorist nations."

It doesn't say restrict or any other similar words. Just, "No More."

 

[apc3161]

Dear Randy,

If we deny student visas wholesale for political reasons (eg "terrorist nation") we are making a choice that allows unscrupulous

foreign political leaders to hold hostage educational choices of millions of innocent young men and women around the world

and further their agenda by preventing any possibility of these young people of gaining a different point of view.

Allowing these people to have a chance to come in and educating these people (at their expense of course)

and exposing them to American value is the best way to make changes in their country.

We know that sanctions, bombing and similar isolationary tactics (ie. wholesale visa denials) hurt innocent civilians the most.

Have we learned nothing at all from our mistakes?

I couldn't agree more. This is just an action that will stamp out the moderate voices and give power to the radicals in certain countries because the RADICALS will have a monopoly on education, philosophy, and ideas.

 

[Jodi]

When the hell did I say that? I propose we let anyone into this country who would make the country a better place.

Dr. Paul is right when it comes to incentives. The immigration problem would be a non-issue if it wasn't for the free medicare, medicaid, social security, welfare, and other social programs that american taxpayers must foot the bill for.

For one, Americans would be less pissed off because they wouldn't have to pay for such policies, and two, immigrants would have less of an incentive to come. Only the immigrants who really wanted to study and work hard would come.

I advocate that we enforce the duration periods of the visas we actually hand out and make sure that people who should leave the country do so. What I do not advocate is collective punishment. We shouldn't punish every student from a certain country that wants to come here and study just because a few radicals who happen to be from such a country decided to commit terrorist acts.

How are we supposed to spread our message of peace and freedom through example if we do not let those who would be willing to listen the right to come here? This would effectively be silencing the more moderate voices from certain countries and giving the more radical voices the perfect weapon, an uneducated populace who is highly susceptible to propaganda.

So how do you make sure that those coming from other nations that have terrorism are absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt not a radical?

 

[TheEvilDetector]

So how do you make sure that those coming from other nations that have terrorism are absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt not a radical?

If you want that kind of assurance, you need to close down immigration completely then you will be perfectly safe.

Otherwise, I think good background character checks, criminal checks, extensive interviews, references and sponsorship
(ie. reputable institution(s) and/or reputable individual(s) vouching for them in US and their country) should be a good place to start.

 

[apc3161]

So how do you make sure that those coming from other nations that have terrorism are absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt not a radical?

You can't "without a doubt." That being said, we can't do that with European nations, South American nations, or any other nations. That doesn't mean we should stop giving them student visas does it? You have to take precautions sure, but to just put an end to student visas would only hurt us.

It's like the second amendment. Because people have guns, there is bound to be tragedies over the years such as Virginia Tech, Columbine, etc, but when you weigh these instances against what would result from 100% gun control, you realize that unfortunately life is not perfect and you have to choose the lesser of two evils.

We should enforce the visas that we currently give out, make sure they either apply for new visas or leave on time (reminder, every single 9-11 hijacker was on an expired visa). But if we stamp out the moderate voices in foreign countries, and give the radicals elements in these countries a monopoly of education, ideas, and philosophies, we will be creating more problems than those which we solved by putting an end to these student visa programs.

 

[apc3161]

If you want that kind of assurance, you need to close down immigration completely.

Then you will be perfectly safe.

What he said. I agree with him again.

 

[Jodi's mom]

<snip>

If we were to not allow the BRIGHTEST of foreign students and workers to come here, they would go somewhere else, and our businesses and universities would suffer, period.

Instead of attracting the brightest from across the world to America, you would be telling them to go home. That would be an artificially created brain drain. I really hope that is not what you believe would be good for this country.

Again, he didn't say ABOLISH student visas, he said "RESTRICT..... including the granting of heavily abused student visas". Please re-read his policies regarding this issue. Pick it apart with a fine-toothed comb.

If we don't get this issue under control as well as our sloppy immigration policies, there won't be an America for others to come to. All it takes is a handful of so-called "students" like those who brought down the Twin Towers, hit the Pentagon, (and potential other targets they failed hitting), killing several thousands Americans that put this country in the state of disarray we find ourselves today.

So, I would ask you, is this really what YOU believe is good for this country? This isn't the 1950s. It's post-September 2001.

If we sincerely want a leader in Ron Paul, then let's go all the way with him! Picking an ad apart and criticizing it only causes division. This isn't what we need at this critical time of the campaign. We need to be united...on ALL fronts!

 

[apc3161]

Again, he didn't say ABOLISH student visas, he said "RESTRICT..... including the granting of heavily abused student visas". Please re-read his policies regarding this issue. Pick it apart with a fine-toothed comb.

If we don't get this issue under control as well as our sloppy immigration policies, there won't be an America for others to come to. All it takes is a handful of so-called "students" like those who brought down the Twin Towers, hit the Pentagon, (and potential other targets they failed hitting), killing several thousands Americans that put this country in the state of disarray we find ourselves today.

So, I would ask you, is this really what YOU believe is good for this country? This isn't the 1950s. It's post-September 2001.

If we sincerely want a leader in Ron Paul, then let's go all the way with him! Picking an ad apart and criticizing it only causes division. This isn't what we need at this critical time of the campaign. We need to be united...on ALL fronts!

I disagree, we don't need to unite on all fronts. I'm still going to vote for RP because of his stance on other issues, but I do not like his stance on this.

If there is anything I have learned from 9-11, its that GROUPTHINK is a terrible thing. When everyone unites and there is no dissent, great problems arise.

Also, I agree more with what Ron Paul has written than what he has said. The message says, " NO MORE STUDENT VISAS FROM TERRORIST NATIONS." He didn't say "restrict." Again, I'm not saying our current visa program is perfect, or that our borders should be left wide open, I'm just saying I hated the words chosen in this ad.

 

[cswake]

This isn't what we need at this critical time of the campaign. We need to be united...on ALL fronts!

I like the visa proposal, but I disagree here. A group think mentality is not what we need. An intelligent discussion, with disagreement, can continue without doing any harm to the work everyone is putting in.

 

[lucius]

No--that line was to appeal to barely waking simians, who are terrified by a constant barrage of media induced bogeyman trauma; it deftly ties border security to terrorism with a solution in Dr. Paul that ad rocked!

 

[TheEvilDetector]

No--that line was to appeal to barely waking simians, who are terrified by a constant barrage of media induced bogeyman trauma; it deftly ties border security to terrorism with a solution in Dr. Paul that ad rocked!

Heheheh, your post cracked me up. LOL

 

[cswake]

No--that line was to appeal to barely waking simians, who are terrified by a constant barrage of media induced bogeyman trauma; it deftly ties border security to terrorism with a solution in Dr. Paul that ad rocked!

Agreed - this is targeting the hard-core Republican base that I believe is centered around Giuliani's 9/11!!!!! camp and Tancredo's fallout.

 

[Jodi]

What he said. I agree with him again.

My point in favor of the ad is...When I was first looking at Ron Paul I did not like the idea of bringing our troops home...how would we be kept safe with all the troops here in the US? The ad comforted me because I saw Ron Paul had a plan to make sure we were not attacked, it clicked with me, keep in mind I am an "elder voting republican" although not in IA. As I think about it whose country do you think this is? Why do you believe we have to be so humanitarian without regard to our safety as a nation?

 

[apc3161]

My point in favor of the ad is...When I was first looking at Ron Paul I did not like the idea of bringing our troops home...how would we be kept safe with all the troops here in the US? The ad comforted me because I saw Ron Paul had a plan to make sure we were not attacked, it clicked with me, keep in mind I am an "elder voting republican" although not in IA. As I think about it whose country do you think this is? Why do you believe we have to be so humanitarian without regard to our safety as a nation?

I see where you are coming from, and this is definitely OUR country, but blocking student visas entirely to people from certain countries in my opinion will not increase our safety. Again, it will allow the radicals in other countries the ability to spread propaganda to an uneducated populace. Education is a defense against ignorance. If we allow the radicals in other countries the ability to take advantage of an uneducated, ignorant populace, we are not increasing our safety. The radicals will be able to spread their lies to those who don't know the truth, and their recruitment numbers will go up, and we will have more radicals to deal with.

Again, I am 100% for enforcing visas though. If they over-stay the Visa period, find them, and send them home. If we would have done this, 9-11 would never have happened because all of the hijackers had expired visas.

But if we don't allow the best and brightest from other nations to come here, educate themselves and work, our country will be in a lot of trouble. Our businesses and universities will take big hits. We should be encouraging such intelligent and hard working people to come here and help further improve our country, not telling them to stay out.

 

[Corydoras]

Just a few facts here.

First, student visas are F-1 visas (M-1 visas for vocational schools). These are finite. The students who hold them are not immigrants. The intention is for them to go back to their home countries after graduation, though some switch to H-1b status if they get an employer to sponsor them.
http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_1268.html#long

Second, the determination of which countries are state supporters of terrorism is in the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Assistance_Act

Third, Ron Paul's proposal in H.R. 488 is for a ban, not a restriction, on visas for students from state supporters of terorism, with exceptions being granted by the President.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h108-488

Fourth, international professors are on H-1b visas or O-1 visas. In 1998, Ron Paul voted for an increase in H visas, which last up to 6 years. As far as I can determine, he has no problem with O visas, which can be renewed indefinitely. Notice that he is not calling for a ban OR a restriction on H or O visas.

 

[Jodi's mom]

I disagree, we don't need to unite on all fronts. I'm still going to vote for RP because of his stance on other issues, but I do not like his stance on this.

If there is anything I have learned from 9-11, its that GROUPTHINK is a terrible thing. When everyone unites and there is no dissent, great problems arise.

Also, I agree more with what Ron Paul has written than what he has said. The message says, " NO MORE STUDENT VISAS FROM TERRORIST NATIONS." He didn't say "restrict." Again, I'm not saying our current visa program is perfect, or that our borders should be left wide open, I'm just saying I hated the words chosen in this ad.

Without the necessary documentation at hand to be absolutely certain, I think we can assume Dr. Paul's policy means as long as we are in a state of war with (these) terrorists nations.

Let me offer you an analogy. Suppose tainted beef is imported to our country but we don't know from which country. Further suppose that 1000s of Americans a day are dying from it. Do we continue to allow our grocers to sell beef? How long do we allow the imports not knowing its origins? How would you handle this? How do you put beef back on the meat counters without being selective? or discriminatory? Further, when you discover the source, do you consider yourself discriminating or racist against the country whose beef was tainted because you refuse to let their products into the country, and because you are now allowing other countries to import their products?

 

[slamhead]

No controversial statements will get him in the news, and as we know, Dr. Paul always backs up his positions with logic they cannot deny.