Should I blame free market capitalism for this?

You THINK that socialism would make it worse? You don't know? Wow.
Yep - I do think, but I probably know nothing, or almost nothing. Are you wondering if I'm sure that socialism would make things worse, then yes I am sure about that.

Unless they are being prohibited by some kind of gummit regulation, if it is profitable enough to warrant producing this good, it will be produced.
Are there times when I want something but it's not profitable enough for a company to warrant producing it even though there is no gummit regulation? That's the primary issue for me.
 
No, you should blame regulations and barriers to entry which prevent donut businesses from opening, i.e., you should blame lack of capitalism.
I might; but I might also be able to blame other things too, or instead of that.
 
You should stake out this store and see if they are selling any lemon doughnuts to attractive females.
I blame everything that is wrong in the world on attractive females.
For some reason,others think I'm crazy.
Between us,I bet we could catch them in the act.
PM me.

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Yeah, I've noticed that too; I don't know what the deal is with people, though. Perhaps their taste in products does change, but I think it's more like industry has an agenda and is trying to push or take away things thinking it'll maximize their bottom line. I don't have anything agaist companies maximizing their bottom line. In fact, I want them to maximize their bottom line; but I want them to shoot for the long run. When they do, that just means that they're making their customers happy.

The problem is that they often implement tricks that work in the short run, but in the long run they tend to ruin things and have to be done if they want to stay in business, in many cases. Maybe if producers would just put enough effort into figuring out how to do things right, whether it's simply to just be honest, not cut too many corners, market it to appear to be far more valuable than it actually is, design the product with too much "aesthetics" that robs it of peripheral utility (for example, structuring the housing so it can fit in more spaces, or so they can be stacked to save room), or whatever the factor is, then I think everyone would be happier - both the product makers and their customers.

I'm sure the shrewd investor is aware of this. I can picture the scenario: the wealthy & successful investors find the "trends." They know the signs or signals to watch out for that indicate when the trend is about to expire. When the stock price is way up there and they see the light at the end of the tunnel, that's when they bail out and make a killing. Then they take their killing and reinvest it in the next trend, repeating the same cycle. It's investors who look for these things and invest in something that makes it appear like it's a very successful product or company, when in actuality they're just taking advantage of companies that do tricks while at the same time giving them the illusion that they're better than they really are. These investors are like surfers, and hitting these waves is where they get their high.

This seems to make more sense for technology or new companies, though. Could that affect a company that's been around for a while that mainly sells a certain kind of pastry?
I was thinking about my favorite toilet paper when I wrote my first paragraph.


Well, we do have a market and it's predominantly free.
No it is not. From licensing that stifles new competition, to behavior modifying sales tax. From price/wage controls, to bailouts of businesses to big to fail. From IP laws that prevent innovation, to parasitic lawsuits. From the misinterpretation and misuse of the Interstate Commerce Clause, to import tariffs. From certified Unions, to incorporated corporations. From outright prohibition, to a fiat currency. And all the government intervention into our society (economy) in between; EPA regulations, FDA regulations, FCC regulations, ATF regulations, IRS regulations etc. Did I mention income tax? There is a market, but in no way is it a Free Market. Not even F**KING close. Gibson Guitar was SWAT raided on the basis that they broke a law from a country halfway around the world. Truth is Gibson didn't pay it's protection money to the right Mob.


But does that affect the overall capability of the market for being feasible? As far as my lemon-filled donut is concerned, I doubt that the problem has to do with IP.
Maybe not, you gave very little information to determine anything. I only gave an example. Start a business making lemon-filled donuts, just the way you like them. Then you will find out if another company believes they own the recipe.


There's a lot about this I'm not sure about; for example: if a product is not profitable for a larger company, how can it somehow be profitable for a smaller company?
You may be unsure about this, because your insight may come predominantly from text books and not from the experience of operating a small business. There is such a thing as a "Niche Market". As an example, my Nephew owns a small home repair business. He is a general contractor and has three full time carpenters, a full time estimator and he hires a freelance accountant. He has little competition of the type known as large contractors. Most of his competition over the past five years comes from laid off construction workers looking to supplement their unemployment insurance. He finds a profit in his niche market that can sustain him and his employees, that a large general contractor with a thousand employees will not bother with. Another myth that persists, is that less productive people would not survive in a true Free market. Take for example an older carpenter who can't keep up with the younger carpenters in building cabinets in a factory setting. Now there is nothing wrong with these factory cabinets, as these provide affordable cabinets for the middle class and the poor. Fortunately for the older less productive carpenter, there is a rich class of customer, that prefers a finer quality handmade custom cabinet and is willing to pay a premium price for it. He has found a niche market. Unfortunately for the older less productive carpenter, in reality he lives in a Manipulated/Distorted market, that makes it undesirable to launch his own business. It takes less effort (all that Fing government paper work) and is less dangerous (see EPA, IRS, etc. SWAT raids above) to simply pay for union protection and take the governments unemployment handout when he is not working.


Don't larger companies tend to drive smaller competitors out of business?
Only in a government Manipulated/Distorted market. In a true Free Market the smaller competitor most likely has the upper hand.


Yeah, that's another problem too. I don't want to switch to something that has proven to be worse. It's as though there seems to be no solution when it comes to products being discontinued.
You're being purposely obtuse, the idea of instantaneous satisfaction is ridiculous. Life is full of problems, if these problems are not solved fast enough for you, end your life and your problems will be gone. A Free market does the best job at solving problems. The freer the market the better job it does at solving problems.
 
Yep - I do think, but I probably know nothing, or almost nothing. Are you wondering if I'm sure that socialism would make things worse, then yes I am sure about that.


Are there times when I want something but it's not profitable enough for a company to warrant producing it even though there is no gummit regulation? That's the primary issue for me.

Yes. Think of the horse buggy. Good luck finding a mass market for that. You may have to find a small time custom bakery to make your lemon donuts, but the free market could very well determine that it is not worth that Franchise to make them anymore as they focus on bulk production of the most popular confections.
 
Are there times when I want something but it's not profitable enough for a company to warrant producing it even though there is no gummit regulation? That's the primary issue for me.

Yes. Think of the horse buggy. Good luck finding a mass market for that. You may have to find a small time custom bakery to make your lemon donuts, but the free market could very well determine that it is not worth that Franchise to make them anymore as they focus on bulk production of the most popular confections.
What Neil doesn't realize is he is part of the market and can make his lemon-filled doughnuts himself. Division of labor gave him this opportunity by providing him with transportation, a store, produce in the store, an oven and fuel for the oven. Also, if Neil really desires a buggy and doesn't have the ability, tools or materials to make it himself, a medium of exchange exist that easily allows him to hire an individual who can make him a buggy. This is as much a part of the market as some large company with chain stores dotting the land.
 
I can make you a good deal on a quantity of most excellent lemons Desmond, then you can fresh squeeze one on an ordinary donut and make it a lemon donut .Problem solved.
 
Yes. Think of the horse buggy. Good luck finding a mass market for that.
The amazing thing is that an advanced market with tremendous wealth and sophistication, such as ours, tends to address more and more and more odd-ball niche customers with very unusual desires. Why, I can buy banana chips at my hardware store. How many people at that hardware store want banana chips on a given day? In a given week!? Not many! I can buy mangosteen just down the road (in fact I just ate some this weekend). How many people living in this town want mangosteen? How many know what mangosteen is? Again, not many!

How much would it cost you to buy a horse buggy today? The miracle of it: even though a vanishingly small percentage of the population would want such a thing, I will just bet you that you can, in fact, find either a horse buggy available to buy online, or someone to build you one, and for a payment that represents fewer labor hours than you would have paid 200 years ago, when nearly everyone would have wanted one! That is absolutely mind-boggling! What have we wrought? Behold, the wonders of human cooperation. The power of human freedom.
 
You need to get operatives along the east coast to investigate their local franchises to see if they still have them.
 
How long have you been regularly getting these donuts?

A few months?

Because the selection probably changes seasonally, and lemon donuts could well be part of their summer menu only.
 
I was thinking about my favorite toilet paper when I wrote my first paragraph.
Oh...nice! LOL!

No it is not. From licensing that stifles new competition, to behavior modifying sales tax. From price/wage controls, to bailouts of businesses to big to fail. From IP laws that prevent innovation, to parasitic lawsuits. From the misinterpretation and misuse of the Interstate Commerce Clause, to import tariffs. From certified Unions, to incorporated corporations. From outright prohibition, to a fiat currency. And all the government intervention into our society (economy) in between; EPA regulations, FDA regulations, FCC regulations, ATF regulations, IRS regulations etc. Did I mention income tax? There is a market, but in no way is it a Free Market. Not even F**KING close. Gibson Guitar was SWAT raided on the basis that they broke a law from a country halfway around the world. Truth is Gibson didn't pay it's protection money to the right Mob.
Alright, fair enough; but I have my doubts that any of this has anything to do with what might be a discontinued donut by a franchise with the name donut in it. These things might have had an effect on when it might have been discontinued, and it might have happened later down the road, or it might have happened further back in the past.

Maybe not, you gave very little information to determine anything. I only gave an example. Start a business making lemon-filled donuts, just the way you like them. Then you will find out if another company believes they own the recipe.
Ok, if something like that were the case, then yes, it appears it would not be the fault of the free market. Based on what I understand about intellectual property (IP) when it comes to recipes, and from a rather brief glance at "lemon filling" or "lemon donut", it doesn't seem like IP is the issue. I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but here's what I understand: Generally a recipe in itself is not something you can copyright or patent. A recipe can be copyrighted if it has to do with the way it's written, but the recipe as a list of ingredients and steps in general cannot be copyrighted. You can still make something from a recipe, just don't make copies of it; you can still make the product. That's the point of selling books with recipes (right?). In order to be patentable, certain creativity and intellectual benchmarks have to be met. Something as simple and obvious as a lemon-filled donut is pretty far from that.

You may be unsure about this, because your insight may come predominantly from text books and not from the experience of operating a small business. There is such a thing as a "Niche Market". As an example, my Nephew owns a small home repair business. He is a general contractor and has three full time carpenters, a full time estimator and he hires a freelance accountant. He has little competition of the type known as large contractors. Most of his competition over the past five years comes from laid off construction workers looking to supplement their unemployment insurance. He finds a profit in his niche market that can sustain him and his employees, that a large general contractor with a thousand employees will not bother with. Another myth that persists, is that less productive people would not survive in a true Free market. Take for example an older carpenter who can't keep up with the younger carpenters in building cabinets in a factory setting. Now there is nothing wrong with these factory cabinets, as these provide affordable cabinets for the middle class and the poor. Fortunately for the older less productive carpenter, there is a rich class of customer, that prefers a finer quality handmade custom cabinet and is willing to pay a premium price for it. He has found a niche market. Unfortunately for the older less productive carpenter, in reality he lives in a Manipulated/Distorted market, that makes it undesirable to launch his own business. It takes less effort (all that Fing government paper work) and is less dangerous (see EPA, IRS, etc. SWAT raids above) to simply pay for union protection and take the governments unemployment handout when he is not working.
Sure, it could be anything; that's why I'm asking. All I know or understand, though (remember, this is Neil Desmond's stomach speaking), is that it seems I will no longer able to engage in trade to acquire a product and/or service from a franchise that I had been able to acquire for many years, even though I had the money and am willing to pay a little more than the average price for a donut.

Only in a government Manipulated/Distorted market. In a true Free Market the smaller competitor most likely has the upper hand.
You're saying that Walmart wouldn't put mom & pop shops out of business in a purely free market environment?

You're being purposely obtuse, the idea of instantaneous satisfaction is ridiculous.
That depends; if I want instantaneous satisfaction for something that has never happened before, that would be one thing. I have had instantaneous satisfaction when it comes to trading for lemon donuts for many years. I have the money, I'm willing to spend it, I'm not trying to steal donuts, I'm not asking for something that doesn't exist, yet the market has decided to no longer provide them for me.

Life is full of problems, if these problems are not solved fast enough for you, end your life and your problems will be gone. A Free market does the best job at solving problems. The freer the market the better job it does at solving problems.
True; life is full of problems. Some problems are unavoidable, but some are artificially created problems and serve as possible counterexamples to certain claims or arguments. That's what this discussion is about. I don't need a lemon-filled donut to survive; that's not what the discussion is about.
 
Yes. Think of the horse buggy. Good luck finding a mass market for that.
If someone wanted to start a business, such as one that involves a horse-drawn carriage, it can be done. They are out there, such as for hay rides, recreational taxis, weddings, etc. A horse buggy as a utility satisfies a demand that's generally better met with other products, though, such as a car, truck, van, bus, etc. I'm talking about being a consumer, or doing business with a retail outlet.

You may have to find a small time custom bakery to make your lemon donuts, but the free market could very well determine that it is not worth that Franchise to make them anymore as they focus on bulk production of the most popular confections.
One of the problems is proximity. I go to this franchise for breakfast when I'm at work, and I don't have much time to go too far; it's close to where I work. If I were to go once in a blue moon to some out of the way donut shop that could work I suppose, but this is something I like to do every weekend. As far as I'm aware, I know of no other franchise or donut shop. I don't even know where there are any donut shops other than the ones for this franchise in my area (and even if they did, would lemon-filled donuts be a product they offer, one that they also discontinued or will discontinue some day?). Perhaps it's not a problem with the free market (or not just a problem with it), but maybe it's also a problem with the area being one that sucks.
 
What Neil doesn't realize is he is part of the market and can make his lemon-filled doughnuts himself. Division of labor gave him this opportunity by providing him with transportation, a store, produce in the store, an oven and fuel for the oven. Also, if Neil really desires a buggy and doesn't have the ability, tools or materials to make it himself, a medium of exchange exist that easily allows him to hire an individual who can make him a buggy. This is as much a part of the market as some large company with chain stores dotting the land.
Oh, I know that & I can try to become an expert in everything else. I already pointed out that my econ professor stated that self sufficiency leads to poverty. My point is that I want to be able to trade for some goods and services without getting screwed by market decisions based on artificial reasons. If a lemon or citrus scarcity explained the problem that would be one thing (that would be an example of a decision that isn't based on what I mean by artificial reasons), but then that would not be a case of a shop choosing to discontinue a product because someone in some office is not satisfied with some marketing or sales figure on some report, or whatever the deal is.
 
I can make you a good deal on a quantity of most excellent lemons Desmond, then you can fresh squeeze one on an ordinary donut and make it a lemon donut .Problem solved.
I'd rather pay with money that I have and use it to trade, but right now that isn't working - that's my point.
 
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You need to get operatives along the east coast to investigate their local franchises to see if they still have them.
Unfortunately, yeah - seems like I'll have to determine if this is some sort of conspiracy or what not. ;)
 
How long have you been regularly getting these donuts?

A few months?

Because the selection probably changes seasonally, and lemon donuts could well be part of their summer menu only.
I've been getting these donuts for well over 5 years probably close to 10 years (maybe even more than that), and they have always been available all year around, practically every weekend (with the exception of when they ran out of stock that day or that morning).
 
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Great question. This is simple economics: there wasn't that much of a demand so there really was no incentive to make them fresh daily. You might have been the only customer, but that isn't much of a profit-incentive for the company. However, you could also argue that they would be losing a customer if they don't have that daily doughnut (who knows? Maybe you'd buy a coffee and other doughnuts if they would've had that doughnut).
 
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