Should I blame free market capitalism for this?

[helmuth_hubener]

Great question. This is simple economics: there wasn't that much of a demand so there really was no incentive to make them fresh daily. You might have been the only customer, but that isn't much of a profit-incentive for the company.

I do not think there is a very high chance that this is the correct explanation. Based on my doughnut experience thoughout my life, lemon-filled doughnuts are solidly in the top ten most popular doughnut varieties. You will find them in every grocery store.

 

[jj-]

I do not think there is a very high chance that this is the correct explanation. Based on my doughnut experience thoughout my life, lemon-filled doughnuts are solidly in the top ten most popular doughnut varieties. You will find them in every grocery store.

The problem is supply suppression by government barriers to entry.

 

[Neil Desmond]

Great question. This is simple economics: there wasn't that much of a demand so there really was no incentive to make them fresh daily. You might have been the only customer, but that isn't much of a profit-incentive for the company. However, you could also argue that they would be losing a customer if they don't have that daily doughnut (who knows? Maybe you'd buy a coffee and other doughnuts if they would've had that doughnut).

Yes, it could very well be that I am the only customer (actually, it's a franchise, so they're sold in hundreds or thousands of branches, so I would perhaps be one of only a few). Here's another thought: what it has nothing to do with the number of customers or demand for lemon-filled donuts? One of the things I notice is that many of their donuts are a mix and match of a variety of ingredients or things like glazings, sprinkles, flavors, sugar coatings, icings, strawberry jelly, etc. Many of them are a mix and match of these ingredients and things. The lemon filling, on the other hand, seems to be rather unique, or maybe they only use it for only one variation of their donuts (i.e., the one that I like). What if the reason they discontinued it is because they figure it's just one donut, and they could save a lot of money by no longer ordering the filling just for that one donut, they no longer need the extra space or section for either prepping or displaying those donuts?

In response to your last part, yes, they did lose a customer for another item they sell (at least last weekend when I stopped there), which is that I also get a medium ice mocha latte; that time I left the shop without purchasing that too. Not only did they lose me as a customer for ordering that latte last weekend, but they may have lost me as a customer the way I used to be on a regular basis. Now I might only go maybe once a month or every other month to get that latte.

I'm going to try again this weekend to see if they're selling these lemon filled donuts (and the latte); if they don't have the lemon filled donuts again, I'm not going to order the latte either & I'm again going to take my business elsewhere. I think Henry Rogue has the best response so far; sometimes companies make bad decisions.

Did you know that originally MTV used to play music videos (at least they did constantly)? I used to watch MTV when they did. Now I don't even understand what they're showing or who their audience is, but basically I don't watch MTV anymore & haven't watched it for years because of all that. I'm wondering if this donut trade franchise is headed down the same road. They've gotten into offering more and more non-donut products, which I have nothing against; but I wonder if they're just discontinuing probably not just the lemon-filled donut, but others along the same lines, to make more shelf or table space in their existing stores for other non-donut products or equipment for making the other products.

 

[Neil Desmond]

Alright, after thinking about this, it seems like the problem in this situation is not free market capitalism. Free market capitalism is just the playing field for trade, and the merchants or companies and the customers are like the players (I suppose in some cases you can make an analogy between the refs & the government). When a company makes a bad decision, it could be like a team losing the game on that field.

All free market capitalism means is that there's less barriers in the way on the playing field, for both the customers and the merchants. I think with this donut example, the state getting in the way, regardless of how much or how little, probably didn't have an effect on altering a level playing field; I think it's just a company that decided that their lemon-filling (and whatever other "flavors" ended up on the chopping block) donut customers aren't important enough for them. In other words, even if the state totally stayed out of the way, I still don't see what would stop them from making a business decision in an attempt to make deep cuts into the corners.

If it's purely a business decision choice, I just hope for their sake that it doesn't chase away a bulk of their customers resulting in a drop in sales or maybe even going out of business or bankrupt. I doubt that'll happen, though. The other non-donut products seem to be popular. I guess it'll be like the MTV situation, where they probably lost the bulk of their audience only interested in watching music videos, but gained an audience that likes to watch...whatever that stuff is that they show now. This donut shop will lose some of their donut customers, but gain customers who buy their other products.

 

[goldycow]

And should i blame free market capitalism for that : https://www.goldbroker.com/news/bank-goldman-sachs-is-above-the-law-314.html

Some have abused from the free market and now, they too much power and could be anything they want....

 

[Henry Rogue]

Alright, fair enough; but I have my doubts that any of this has anything to do with what might be a discontinued donut by a franchise with the name donut in it. These things might have had an effect on when it might have been discontinued, and it might have happened later down the road, or it might have happened further back in the past.

You titled this thread "Should I blame free market capitalism for this?". My response here was not to give a reason why a particular franchise doesn't sell a particular doughnut, it was a response to the notion that we are a Free Market economy. If we are not a Free Market economy then it can't be the failure of the Free Market.

Ok, if something like that were the case, then yes, it appears it would not be the fault of the free market. Based on what I understand about intellectual property (IP) when it comes to recipes, and from a rather brief glance at "lemon filling" or "lemon donut", it doesn't seem like IP is the issue. I'm not a lawyer or legal expert, but here's what I understand: Generally a recipe in itself is not something you can copyright or patent. A recipe can be copyrighted if it has to do with the way it's written, but the recipe as a list of ingredients and steps in general cannot be copyrighted. You can still make something from a recipe, just don't make copies of it; you can still make the product. That's the point of selling books with recipes (right?). In order to be patentable, certain creativity and intellectual benchmarks have to be met. Something as simple and obvious as a lemon-filled donut is pretty far from that.

You are probably right. In this case it seems unlikely it is caused by IP laws. Typically the affect IP laws has on our society (economy) is to make prices artificially high ( an unnecessary burden to consumers), Stifle innovation ( I can think of a couple of tool manufacturers that held patents on particular tools. Once the patents expired they made improvements on their products to stay competitive) and funnel away capital from businesses ( both the patent holder and the patent infringer must expend resources to the legal parasites).

Sure, it could be anything; that's why I'm asking. All I know or understand, though (remember, this is Neil Desmond's stomach speaking), is that it seems I will no longer able to engage in trade to acquire a product and/or service from a franchise that I had been able to acquire for many years, even though I had the money and am willing to pay a little more than the average price for a donut.

I don't know. I don't know the the answer and neither does any central planner. But are you really unable to engage in trade? Is there really no other seller of lemon filled doughnuts near your location? Just because one franchise failed your gratification doesn't mean the market even a Manipulated and Distorted market has failed.

You're saying that Walmart wouldn't put mom & pop shops out of business in a purely free market environment?

I'm saying Walmart would not even exist in it's current form in a Free Market. In a Free Market ( a market free of government manipulation and distortion) there would be no corporations as legally defined. Walmart would not be able to petition local governments to impose eminent domain on property owners. Nor would walmart get special tax breaks that create an unfair advantage. And there is no guarantee the Free Market would have built a web of freeways connecting cities and bypassing small towns, this alone could have deterred many walmart locations from being built and would have made distribution more costly.

That depends; if I want instantaneous satisfaction for something that has never happened before, that would be one thing. I have had instantaneous satisfaction when it comes to trading for lemon donuts for many years. I have the money, I'm willing to spend it, I'm not trying to steal donuts, I'm not asking for something that doesn't exist, yet the market has decided to no longer provide them for me.

One company has decided to no longer provide them for you. This may be one of the reasons why so many people fundamentally don't understand markets. They don't view themselves as producers and they don't view producers as also being consumers. From your point of view it may seem instantaneous, but it took many of your fellow market participators to make those doughnuts seem to magically appear behind that counter, thousands in fact. You may even had a hand in their production without even knowing it. And it took you time and effort in obtaining the necessary funds to purchase this product.

True; life is full of problems. Some problems are unavoidable, but some are artificially created problems and serve as possible counterexamples to certain claims or arguments. That's what this discussion is about. I don't need a lemon-filled donut to survive; that's not what the discussion is about.

I agree, government does create a lot of artificial problems and the corporate structure is artificial, because incorporation of businesses is contrived by government.

 

[Henry Rogue]

Alright, after thinking about this, it seems like the problem in this situation is not free market capitalism. Free market capitalism is just the playing field for trade, and the merchants or companies and the customers are like the players (I suppose in some cases you can make an analogy between the refs & the government). When a company makes a bad decision, it could be like a team losing the game on that field.

Yeah, people make mistakes and it may cost them costumers, it may even cost them their livelihood, Sometimes Doctors make mistakes and it cost that patient (costumer) his or her life. What happens when the ref makes a mistake?

All free market capitalism means is that there's less barriers in the way on the playing field, for both the customers and the merchants. I think with this donut example, the state getting in the way, regardless of how much or how little, probably didn't have an effect on altering a level playing field; I think it's just a company that decided that their lemon-filling (and whatever other "flavors" ended up on the chopping block) donut customers aren't important enough for them. In other words, even if the state totally stayed out of the way, I still don't see what would stop them from making a business decision in an attempt to make deep cuts into the corners.

If it's purely a business decision choice, I just hope for their sake that it doesn't chase away a bulk of their customers resulting in a drop in sales or maybe even going out of business or bankrupt. I doubt that'll happen, though. The other non-donut products seem to be popular. I guess it'll be like the MTV situation, where they probably lost the bulk of their audience only interested in watching music videos, but gained an audience that likes to watch...whatever that stuff is that they show now. This donut shop will lose some of their donut customers, but gain customers who buy their other products.

The Free Market means much more than that. For one thing it means there will be risk. Risk is a natural barrier that should not be understated. Risk is the balance to greed and envy. When your referees remove risk it removes natural barriers on the playing field. Barriers that help people make good decisions.

You see markets as some kind of contrived system. You see markets as something separate from society. To me, we, all of us, are the market. It is no more a system than language is a system. You and I have different world views and that's okay. It's when you decide to coerce me that I have a problem.

 

[Neil Desmond]

...... UPDATE BULLETIN ......​

Lemon donuts are back! Crisis is over!

 

[tod evans]

Freezer.

 

[Matthew5]

...... UPDATE BULLETIN ......​

Lemon donuts are back! Crisis is over!

I grabbed a few cases when we burned down Goldman Sachs...you're welcome.

 

[AllFreeMen]

I think a law should be passed to use the iron fist of government to force him to make lemon donuts daily. And to make it fair, low income or no income people should get FREE lemon donuts subsidized by you who obviously can afford all the lemon donuts you want.

You are the 1% when it comes to lemon donuts, shame on you!

 

[helmuth_hubener]

You are the 1% when it comes to lemon donuts, shame on you!

Yes, we all hate people who are in the top 1% of anything. By being elite, they are obviously inherently evil. They are ripping us all off by being better than us.

 

[Todd]

maybe it's just because Lemon donuts suck.