Secession thread.

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

Alaska is the place (however unlikely).

Best potential. A ways away for most of us. But best for so many other reasons.

 

[tpreitzel]

Only for defense. We'd need egress and import capabilities. Else we'll have to deal with other states and the Fed for rights of passage.

To a degree, yes, which is one reason why I'd advocate a state with more area and capability of sustaining itself. Cargo aircraft * equipped with defensive and offensive systems should help. Access to the ocean is a benefit, but I don't see a coastline as an absolute requirement for a self sustaining state.

* Vehicles will soon be capable of entering orbit.

 

[tremendoustie]

That's true, Alaska would be great. Isn't there a relatively strong secessionist movement there already? What are the facts on that?

We could sell oil. And the US would have to go through Canada if they decided to get violent. Plus, psychologically, being separate lends more credibility to succession in peoples' minds, methinks.

 

[john_anderson_ii]

It's time.

Let's rally some ideas.

Go!

These things usually start off with something like:

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Then it usually concludes with a list of grievances followed by a brutal and bloody war. It seems governments, even 'free nation' governments don't like to lose subjects..er citizens....

Historically it is the several states that gave birth to the Federal government, not the other way around There is no authorization within the constitution that enables the federal government to prevent a state from leaving the union and no longer recognizing the Federal government as the law of the land. However, the civil war and reconstruction made it pretty obvious that the federal government is willing and capable of overstepping it's bounds in this matter.

 

[tremendoustie]

These things usually start off with something like:



Then it usually concludes with a list of grievances followed by a brutal and bloody war. It seems governments, even 'free nation' governments don't like to lose subjects..er citizens....

Historically it is the several states that gave birth to the Federal government, not the other way around There is no authorization within the constitution that enables the federal government to prevent a state from leaving the union and no longer recognizing the Federal government as the law of the land. However, the civil war and reconstruction made it pretty obvious that the federal government is willing and capable of overstepping it's bounds in this matter.

If the people of Alaska freely voted to secede by a large margin, and the US government came in and brutally subjugated them, it would be a colossal PR disaster for them. I really think that would be enough to make people realize that the US is not what it used to be.

 

[SovereignMN]

If the people of Alaska freely voted to secede by a large margin, and the US government came in and brutally subjugated them, it would be a colossal PR disaster for them. I really think that would be enough to make people realize that the US is not what it used to be.

That isn't how it would go down. If it even looked like a secession vote might pass there would be federal operatives enacting terrorist attacks that make it seem like the rebels are not being peaceful. This would allow them to put them under their heel with plenty of domestic and international support.

Secession isn't going to be clean and pretty.

 

[john_anderson_ii]

That isn't how it would go down. If it even looked like a secession vote might pass there would be federal operatives enacting terrorist attacks that make it seem like the rebels are not being peaceful. This would allow them to put them under their heel with plenty of domestic and international support.

Secession isn't going to be clean and pretty.

I agree to an extent.

In January of 1861 South Carolina held a state convention and under their parliamentary process rules voted to succeed from the United States. By April of 1861 the Federal government still refused to abandon federal garrisons in South Carolina, in short the Federal Government refused to remove military forces from foreign soil when the host country, South Carolina, asked them to. When the Federal Government attempted to resupply and reinforce Ft. Sumter a base located on land no longer under the preview of the Federal Government, South Carolina, like any sovereign nation took that as an act of war.

If Alaska were to succeed I'm sure the media and the Federal Government would never recognize Alaska as a foreign nation and would instead refer to it as 'civil unrest' or a 'state in rebellion', with a healthy helping of 'domestic terrorism' thrown in for good measure. The Federal Government would secure Alaska with the U.S. Military and have the rest of the nation's and the world's blessing in doing so.

 

[tremendoustie]

That isn't how it would go down. If it even looked like a secession vote might pass there would be federal operatives enacting terrorist attacks that make it seem like the rebels are not being peaceful. This would allow them to put them under their heel with plenty of domestic and international support.

Secession isn't going to be clean and pretty.

How about quiet, de facto secession, then. Those interested could move to alaska (or montana, or wyoming), form independent communities, and never report taxes or otherwise support or participate in the state. Imports/Exports could be screened through holding companies -- i.e. Front Company A which resides in a well populated area takes our exports, purchases needed imports, and sends them along. It could operate with little or no profits to avoid taxation.

 

[Scribbler de Stebbing]

How about quiet, de facto secession, then. Those interested could move to alaska (or montana, or wyoming), form independent communities, and never report taxes or otherwise support or participate in the state. Imports/Exports could be screened through holding companies -- i.e. Front Company A which resides in a well populated area takes our exports, purchases needed imports, and sends them along. It could operate with little or no profits to avoid taxation.

Better yet, garner enough support to reclaim powers under the Tenth Amendment. Then branch into the next state over and go from there. But the effort needs to be geographically concentrated.

This was probably the general idea behind the Free State Project, but there's never been the sense of desperation there is now.

 

[john_anderson_ii]

How about quiet, de facto secession, then. Those interested could move to alaska (or montana, or wyoming), form independent communities, and never report taxes or otherwise support or participate in the state. Imports/Exports could be screened through holding companies -- i.e. Front Company A which resides in a well populated area takes our exports, purchases needed imports, and sends them along. It could operate with little or no profits to avoid taxation.

That's probably the best way to do it.

Think of California and it's medical marijuana status. California law forbids the arrest and prosecution of users of medical marijuana. Federal officers still arrest and prosecute Californians under Federal law, but they get no help or cooperation from the State of California in doing so.

If that sort of movement could spread to other issues, like taxation, gun rights, land rights, welfarism etc, and then that sort of philosiphy were to spread to several states. The Federal government would be very, very busy and very understaffed when faced with the burden of attempting to enforce federal law without state cooperation.

I'm sure there's an actual word for that kind of behavior, but it escapes me at this moment.

 

[kojirodensetsu]

I wish we could secede but it doesn't seem realistic atm.. We'd need a lot of people to move to one place, and we would have to have the arms to defend against the world.

I just.. I don't know what to do. We're up against a corrupt country that is the leader of the world. People that I talk to never change their minds.

 

[ryanduff]

I live in rural PA and I have a big barn. All welcome.

I'll be right over as soon as I load up my food supplies, guns and ammo!

 

[gilliganscorner]

Agorism = Secession without Relocating

Hello Everyone,

I like the concept of this thread. I am not sure if we can ever find and agree on a place where we would like to physically relocate to, but I wanted to offer a concept I wrote about on a previous thread:

Hello Folks,

I posted this previously in a tax thread that is now defunct, but I would really like to see if folks like this idea. I originally posted the below in another thread supporting Social Engineer's www.freemarketforliberty.com

This could lead to the most significant value to members of this forum.

-------------


As most of you know, we are unwilling or unwitting participants in the "red market", that is to say, we are enslaved to a taxation/inflation system backed by State violence. The State siphons off a HUGE (it wouldn't be out there to say 80% if you factor in ALL direct and indirect taxes you pay, and the REAL inflation rate - some say between 12 and 15%) of your productivity by confiscating your money directly via taxation, and indirectly via inflation.

You cannot trade your productivity for anything other than Federal Reserve Points (FRPs) in the red market - as you are required to report your earnings to the State for taxation, regulation, and confiscation. Legal tender laws ensure that. The State demands taxes be paid in FRPs. This creates an artificial demand for those notes that have an arbitrary unit (the dollar) whose purchasing power is stolen from you by an arbitrary force (the State/Banking cartel - a.k.a The Federal Reserve). In other words, the State ensures that Gresham's Law works.

If you do not pay your taxes, the State will ultimately (after a great deal of harassment) deploy bad guys wearing clown suits and shiny badges to your house with guns to waterboard you and your family. It is raw terrorism. Who are you more afraid of? The State or some guy allegedly hiding in a cave with bad kidneys (who is more than likely dead) half-way around the world, or the IRS Terrorist Regime? I think we all know the answer to that question.

OK, Back on track.

We all know the US is bankrupt. It is only a matter of time before the economic system we are enslaved to implodes. The only reason that it has not collapsed like a third rate banana republic is that it's dollar is still viewed as the world's reserve currency (thanks to the Bretton Woods agreement that created the US dollar hegemony)...But that viewpoint is rapidly changing as Dr. Paul noted in this speech to Congress in February of 2006.

Prior to the implosion, you will feel the pain of your dollar losing value by seeing it in soaring prices. Average Americans, lobotomized of critical thinking skills and authoritarian brainwashing by government indoctrination camps we call "public education", will turn to the State pleading "something has to be done!" which of course the State will expand it's reach, size, and power like never before, similar to how the Fed is seeking greater expansion, essentially to nationalize the financially industry via the excuse of the recent $9/11 "credit crisis" hoax. The subverted MSM will do it's best to whip people into a frenzy by scaring the shit out of them via establishment deflections such as I.O.U.S.A. This is the same thing that happened in the 30's when the Fed CAUSED the Great Depression that allowed FDR to usher in the raw deal called the "New Deal" - arguably the greatest expansion of the State ever seen.

That all said, setting up a counter-economy network of trading partners prior to the coming crash is ABSOLUTELY crucial. Most of us lack the means to produce all the goods we need. This is why we need to identify trading partners and establish relationships now. This is how we take individual responsibility for ourselves into our hands and not wait for the State to violently fuck us over.

Social Engineer has provided the first step to identify potential trading partners. I would like to see this also grow into a site where people can identify potential employers/employees who are willing to trade their services using whatever money that is sound (i.e. probably gold or silver coins - but people are free to trade in whatever commodity they wish of course).

Initially, I foresee most people working part time in this counter economy (it actually has a name - "agorism"), as we cannot work full time in it, due to the requirement of paying taxes in Federal Reserve Points, or we would need to purchase something in the red market that is not available from participants on SC's site...yet. You need gas? You would still have to get that from a red market participant...until an independent stepped into SC's website and was willing to trade sound money (i.e. not Federal Reserve Points). In the red market, if I hire you, I am required to report the transaction to the IRS. When you are paid, you are required to pay your taxes to the IRS. You literally need Federal Reserve permission points to work!

By participating in what SC has set up, we get to protect the fruits of our labor from theft via taxation and inflation - provided we make the transition to sound money. Even if the State doesn't collapse during our working lifetime, we still profit from our activity. I think this is the only mechanism that stands a non-zero chance of success. For those of you who have read "Atlas Shrugged", it is a virtual Galt's Gulch, but you get to hide in plain sight!

Even if the State catches on and writes up some arbitrary rules to shut SC's site down, by then we would have established the network of trading partners - on pen and paper. New sites would spring up. Perhaps a P2P application will be built that facilitates trade with each other instead of files. The nice thing about P2P is that it is not centralized and would be difficult for the State to violently shut it down. It would be a "killer app".

Perhaps this site could be used where actors in the market rank the participant's trustworthiness. A State mole might be able to set up shop, but would not get far in the network.

I don't want to speak for you SC or hijack your idea to somewhere you didn't intend the purpose to go, but I thought I would highlight some possibilities to participants or lurkers in this thread.

Thoughts?

Let me know what you think.

 

[Dianne]

I think Alaska is a good thought. Most I've met from Alaska are pretty hard headed and independent... A shame the free state project didn't look at that state.

 

[muzzled dogg]

 

[Dianne]

Here is one solution:

http://www.akip.org/

Start by joining this group !!


Welcome to the home of
The Alaskan Independence Party
For ALL Media contact. Please contact Lynette Clark, Alaskan Independence Party Chair


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are the only Alaskan political party that is entirely composed of Alaskans, staffed by Alaskans and financed by Alaskans. We are not affiliated with any political party with a similiar sounding name in other parts of the United States.

The continual growth of membership of the Alaskan Independence Party has created one of the largest third parties in the United states. We used to be the largest, so we are trying harder to regain that position. Join us as we lead Alaska to the prosperity and freedom that Alaskans expect, deserve and should enjoy.

The AIP is Proud to support Bob Bird for the Senate of the United States. For more information on Mr. Bird, please visit his web site. We also Have Don Wright Running for U.S. House of Representatives. His contact information can be found on our links page. We have also endorsed the Presidential candidacy of the Constitution Party, Charles Baldwin.

The Alaskan Independence Party can be summed up in just two words:

ALASKA FIRST!

Until we as Alaskans receive our Ultimate Goal, the AIP will continue to strive to make Alaska a better place to live with less government interference in our everyday lives.
The Alaskan Independence Party's goal is the vote we were entitled to in 1958, one choice from among the following four alternatives:
1) Remain a Territory.
2) Become a separate and Independent Nation.
3) Accept Commonwealth status.
4) Become a State.The call for this vote is in furtherance of the dream of the Alaskan Independence Party's founding father, Joe Vogler, which was for Alaskans to achieve independence under a minimal government, fully responsive to the people, promoting a peaceful and lawful means of resolving differences.

 

[Libertarian Ideals]

You have it backwards.

 

[mediahasyou]

 

[fedup100]

New Hampshire, Vermont and South Carolina come to mind.

After last night showing for O in Vermont and New Hampshire, they can forget their free state projects. No way anywhere up North, those folks are PC correct lovers of ddddiiivvvveeerrrssiiiitttty!

 

[tremendoustie]

After last night showing for O in Vermont and New Hampshire, they can forget their free state projects. No way anywhere up North, those folks are PC correct lovers of ddddiiivvvveeerrrssiiiitttty!

Don't like the undertones of this either. What's with these borderline offensive statements all the sudden. Diversity is great, but people of all races and creeds can be statists who oppose liberty, and two of them were our top vote getters yesterday, with 97% of the populace were suckered into voting for them.