SCOTUS: Presidents have Immunity for Official Acts

You are the one who can't read, I was saying that Killing Al Awlaki was an impeachable offense because he was an American citizen.

You keep trying to drag in immunity, we are talking about the part that says uses of core power that are not High Crimes and Misdemeanors are not crimes and cannot be made so.
Assassinating an American is absolutely a High Crime or Misdemeanor.

You're just lying.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/506/224/#opinions
A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review.​
 
You're just lying.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/506/224/#opinions
A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review.​

You're the one lying and cherry picking from the ruling:

(c) Justiciability is also refuted by (1) the lack of finality inherent in exposing the country's political life-particularly if the President were impeached-to months, or perhaps years, of chaos during judicial review of Senate impeachment proceedings, or during any retrial that a differently constituted Senate might conduct if its first judgment of conviction were invalidated, and by (2) the difficulty of fashioning judicial relief other than simply setting aside the Senate's judgment of conviction. See Baker, supra, at 210. P. 236. (d) A holding of nonjusticiability is consistent with this Court's opinion in Powell v. McCormack, 395 U. S. 486. Unlike the situation in that case, there is no separate constitutional provision which could be defeated by allowing the Senate final authority to determine the meaning of the word "try" in Art. I, § 3, cl. 6. While courts possess power to review legislative action that transgresses identifiable textual limits, the word "try" does not provide such a limit on the authority committed to the Senate. Pp. 236-238.

They are A only talking about the question raised about the Senate's procedure (SCOTUS ALWAYS DOES THAT), B mention that a separate constitutional provision (like the one specifying High Crimes and Misdemeanors) would alter the Justiciability (they even mention a ruling where such is the case), and C saying NOTHING about the hearings to indict/impeach in the House which has no Constitutional provision granting it sole authority like the Senate does.
 
Wrong. You are just wrong. This is DIRECTLY from the opinion Nixon v. United States, 506 U.S. 224 (1993) at page 255.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/506/224/#opinions
A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review.​

You are fooling nobody but your self. What part of "NO JUDICIAL INVOLVEMENT" do you NOT understand?




You are just lying at this point.

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/506/224/#opinions
A review of the Constitutional Convention's history and the contemporary commentary supports a reading of the constitutional language as deliberately placing the impeachment power in the Legislature, with no judicial involvement, even for the limited purpose of judicial review.​

Repeat spamming your cherry picking and lies in the same and multiple posts will not make them true.
 
You're the one lying and cherry picking from the ruling:



They are A only talking about the question raised about the Senate's procedure (SCOTUS ALWAYS DOES THAT), B mention that a separate constitutional provision (like the one specifying High Crimes and Misdemeanors) would alter the Justiciability (they even mention a ruling where such is the case), and C saying NOTHING about the hearings to indict/impeach in the House which has no Constitutional provision granting it sole authority like the Senate does.

Repeat spamming your cherry picking and lies in the same and multiple posts will not make them true.

It's not "cherry picking." It's a direct quote. Nowhere did SCOTUS limit the language about the lack of judicial review on impeachment the way you are falsely claiming they are through your cherry picking!

You straight up LIED when you said "No, SCOTUS said it had no authority to question the process used in the Senate for the impeachment trial, that's all it said." I prove you lied by pointed out that they said there was no judicial review of impeachment period.
 
And here you fall into your own circular reasoning trap. "Other high crimes or misdemeanors." A misdemeanor is any crime that is punishable by less than one year.
That's not the common law or Constitutional meaning of a High Misdemeanor, and I've already posted the definition which is misconduct in office like malfeasance.


Clearly the "core powers" doctrine would keep him from being prosecuted for a misdemeanor committed while executing a core power but it would not protect him from impeachment.
We're not discussing misdemeanors or High Misdemeanors, I have repeatedly said he could be impeached and tried after removal if he actually committed such, we are discussing legitimate non-misconduct use of core powers which you seek to allow congress to remove him for even though the Constitution specifies he can only be impeached for High Crimes and Misdemeanors.
You can't even keep track of your own arguments, let alone mine.

This is the crux of your misunderstanding of this entire issue. Again, let's go back to the example of Anwar Al Aawki. He was an American Citizen. The group he was with when he was killed was not covered by the AUMF to go after those who carried out 9/11 or harbored them. No evidence was ever presented to show he was involved in terrorism. Yet, based on nothing but Obama's statement that he ad taken an "operational role" in a drone strike, he was put on a drone list and killed. Based on the core powers doctrine Obama can't be prosecuted but he could have been impeached. If someone says "no" then one has to consider all of the times the government has cried "terrorism" when it wasn't true, like when the intelligence services said Russia was paying the Taliban to kill American soldiers and then, as soon as Trump was out of office, said that wasn't true. And consider all of the people who have been accused of being "Russian agents" from Donald Trump to Tulsi Gabbard to Julian Assange. If there is not some accountability for the abuse of putting someone on a terror watch list and then killing him without trial then we're in trouble. But recklessly or intentionally ordering the killing of someone who isn't a terrorist is not treason. It's not bribery. Sure it's another high crime (murder) but who decides if it's impeachable? Why the Senate does of course.
Do you even read my posts?
I have repeatedly said that that drone strike was an impeachable offense.
And you completely misunderstand the core powers doctrine, it does not cover High Crimes and Misdemeanors committed using core powers, nor is assassinating an unconvicted American a core power just because the President is Commander in Chief.

The House decides whether to charge/impeach/indict the President FOR HIGH CRIMES AND MISDEMEANORS, it does not decide what is a High Crime or Misdemeanor, Common Law and Originalism decides what is or is not a High Crime or Misdemeanor.
The Senate decides whether the President is Guilty and how to punish him from within the Constitutional options, but only for High Crimes and Misdemeanors, it does not decide what is a High Crime or Misdemeanor, Common Law and Originalism decides what is or is not a High Crime or Misdemeanor, it also doesn't get to decide whether to charge/indict/impeach the President.

Only the Senate is given any special authority over impeachments, and ONLY FOR RUNNING THE TRIAL ITSELF.
 
It's not "cherry picking." It's a direct quote. Nowhere did SCOTUS limit the language about the lack of judicial review on impeachment the way you are falsely claiming they are through your cherry picking!
I posted the part you deliberately left out in your cherrypicking, I didn't need to post the part you cherry picked.
And they specifically said what I posted about other Constitutional provisions altering the Justiciability in another ruling.
You are taking their quote out of the context of the narrow question of Senate procedure which they found to be not reviewable due to the Senate having sole power to try and trying to act like they meant it in its broadest sense when farther on they made it clear it would be different for a different question where another Constitutional provision came into play.

You straight up LIED when you said "No, SCOTUS said it had no authority to question the process used in the Senate for the impeachment trial, that's all it said." I prove you lied by pointed out that they said there was no judicial review of impeachment period.
You lied by ommission through cherrypicking and taking the ruling out of context.

(d) A holding of nonjusticiability is consistent with this Court's opinion in Powell v. McCormack, 395 U. S. 486. Unlike the situation in that case, there is no separate constitutional provision which could be defeated by allowing the Senate final authority to determine the meaning of the word "try" in Art. I, § 3, cl. 6. While courts possess power to review legislative action that transgresses identifiable textual limits, the word "try" does not provide such a limit on the authority committed to the Senate. Pp. 236-238.
"shall be impeached for High Crimes and Misdemeanors" is an identifiable textual limit.
The more you lie about this the more you end up providing ammunition to completely destroy your position.
 
I posted the part you deliberately left out in your cherrypicking, I didn't need to post the part you cherry picked.
And they specifically said what I posted about other Constitutional provisions altering the Justiciability in another ruling.
You are taking their quote out of the context of the narrow question of Senate procedure which they found to be not reviewable due to the Senate having sole power to try and trying to act like they meant it in its broadest sense when farther on they made it clear it would be different for a different question where another Constitutional provision came into play.


You lied by ommission through cherrypicking and taking the ruling out of context.


"shall be impeached for High Crimes and Misdemeanors" is an identifiable textual limit.
The more you lie about this the more you end up providing ammunition to completely destroy your position.

Bollocks! Examples of limitations are that there has to be a indictment in the house, a 2/3rds majority in the senate, and if the President is impeached the Chief Justice presides. But what is a "high crimes and misdemeanors'" is not subject to judicial review! That's the dumbest argument ever! Do you know how many misdemeanors are defined by federal law? You admit the president can be impeached for bribery or treason even for core constitutional duties right? Then that means he can also be impeached for any other high crime or misdemeanor"! Your argument depends upon pretending that bribery and treason are different from other defined crimes when it comes to impeachment and that's simply not true!

But answer this. There are Republicans who have introduced articles of impeachment against Biden for failing to secure the border. Do you think they are wrong? Do you think if they somehow managed to get a 2/3rd vote in the Senate on that it would be subject to judicial review?
 
Bollocks! Examples of limitations are that there has to be a indictment in the house, a 2/3rds majority in the senate, and if the President is impeached the Chief Justice presides. But what is a "high crimes and misdemeanors'" is not subject to judicial review! That's the dumbest argument ever! Do you know how many misdemeanors are defined by federal law? You admit the president can be impeached for bribery or treason even for core constitutional duties right? Then that means he can also be impeached for any other high crime or misdemeanor"! Your argument depends upon pretending that bribery and treason are different from other defined crimes when it comes to impeachment and that's simply not true!

But answer this. There are Republicans who have introduced articles of impeachment against Biden for failing to secure the border. Do you think they are wrong? Do you think if they somehow managed to get a 2/3rd vote in the Senate on that it would be subject to judicial review?
Your ignorance is insurmountable.

Biden's failure to secure the Border is nonfeasance, and malfeasance, both are misconduct in office and are High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

If Trump decided to invoke the core power of impoundment which was always recognized until Congress tried to usurp it and Nixon unconstitutionally signed it away in legislation without an Amendment it would not be any kind of crime or misdemeanor High or otherwise and Congress cannot make it one.

The definition of High Crimes and Misdemeanors does not fall within the Senate's power to try, especially since the charges must come from the House.
The House does not have power to define High Crimes and Misdemeanors either, only the power to impeach for them.
The definition is in common law and is a separate constitutional provision which could be defeated by allowing the Senate final authority to determine the meaning of the words.
Because the words have a solid definition in common law an attempt to make something outside the definition fit would be legislative action that transgresses identifiable textual limits.
 
https://x.com/JackPosobiec/status/1807796152353321226
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THREAD: Trump shot at Rally

This is gonna be lit ...

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Your ignorance is insurmountable.

Biden's failure to secure the Border is nonfeasance, and malfeasance, both are misconduct in office and are High Crimes and Misdemeanors.

If Trump decided to invoke the core power of impoundment which was always recognized until Congress tried to usurp it and Nixon unconstitutionally signed it away in legislation without an Amendment it would not be any kind of crime or misdemeanor High or otherwise and Congress cannot make it one.

The definition of High Crimes and Misdemeanors does not fall within the Senate's power to try, especially since the charges must come from the House.
The House does not have power to define High Crimes and Misdemeanors either, only the power to impeach for them.
The definition is in common law and is a separate constitutional provision which could be defeated by allowing the Senate final authority to determine the meaning of the words.
Because the words have a solid definition in common law an attempt to make something outside the definition fit would be legislative action that transgresses identifiable textual limits.

:rolleyes: You full of enough feces to run green the Sahara desert. But thank you proving you have absolutely no principles at all and no understanding of the law whatsoever. Going by your stupid argument, securing the border is a "core constitutional" duty which means he CANNOT be criminally prosecuted for it! But your ready to impeach him. I bet you'd probably also try to criminally prosecute him for what he could not be criminally prosecuted for.

Your compliments are hard to identify as such, until one gets to know you.

Exactly! [MENTION=65299]Swordsmyth[/MENTION]'s ignorance is so great that the best he can say about someone else is to call that person ignorant.
 
:rolleyes: You full of enough feces to run green the Sahara desert. But thank you proving you have absolutely no principles at all and no understanding of the law whatsoever. Going by your stupid argument, securing the border is a "core constitutional" duty which means he CANNOT be criminally prosecuted for it! But your ready to impeach him. I bet you'd probably also try to criminally prosecute him for what he could not be criminally prosecuted for.
Do you even listen to yourself?
Of course he can't be prosecuted for DOING it, he can be prosecuted for misconduct in NOT DOING it.


Exactly! @Swordsmyth's ignorance is so great that the best he can say about someone else is to call that person ignorant.
Forum rules prohibit me from accurately describing your problems, so I was charitable.
 
Do you even listen to yourself?
Of course he can't be prosecuted for DOING it, he can be prosecuted for misconduct in NOT DOING it.

LOL. Wrong! Immunity means immunity. You are making up crap as you go along. Andrew Jackson was not prosecuted for not enforcing treaties with the Native Americans. Prosecutors cannot be prosecuted for not prosecuting because they have immunity but they can be removed from office. Judges can be removed from office for not following their duty, but they cannot be prosecuted for it because they have immunity. Your ridiculous "malfeasance" standard which is NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION let's you set up an imaginary and arbitrary standard where you in your own mind get to pick and choose what is impeachable and what is not. The constitution didn't give YOU that power. It gave it to the Senate. The Senate could vote to remove Biden for his action or inaction on the border but we both know they won't. The GOP doesn't have a 2/3rds majority and I doubt even all of the House republicans would vote on it. But if Biden were to come out and take credit for the recent assassination attempt on Trump that would be enough to push even Democrats to vote for impeachment because there would be hell to pay if they didn't.

Forum rules prohibit me from accurately describing your problems, so I was charitable.

My "problem" is that I'm actually faithful to the constitution and you are not.
 
LOL. Wrong! Immunity means immunity. You are making up crap as you go along.
The constitution specifies that he can be impeached for High Crimes and Misdemeanors committed with his core powers, no immunity protects him from those.

You failed to understand the ruling:
Regarding Presidential Immunity —for the first time in American history— the Supreme Court, solidly relying on a whole bunch of previous cases about related presidential issues, announced a brand-new three-tier immunity test:
Tier 1: Total Immunity for Constitutional Acts. “The President is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution for conduct within his exclusive sphere of constitutional authority.” This blessed tier is only for when a president exercises explicit authority under Article Two of the Constitution. Things like negotiating treaties, issuing pardons, and directing military operations. As you can imagine, this is a small, well-defined tier. [and doesn't exempt High Crimes and Misdemeanors, taking a bribe to do any of the things covered is not covered]

Tier 2: Presumptive Immunity for Official Acts. The Court declared that “the President must be immune from prosecution for an official act unless the Government can show that applying a criminal prohibition to that act would pose no dangers of intrusion on the authority and functions of the Executive Branch.” In short, if the President acts officially, as President, that act is immune—but a prosecutor can still proceed if they can show criminalizing that type of conduct will not hinder the Presidential office.
Tier Two answers the Democrats’ most deranged temper tantrums. Prosecuting Presidents who order the military to assassinate (i.e. murder) their opponents would not harm the Presidential office, because presidents are not supposed to murder people, and it wouldn’t hinder the Presidential office to criminalize murder. Duh.

Tier 3: No Immunity for Unofficial Acts.
“The separation of powers does not bar a prosecution predicated on the President's unofficial acts. The first step in deciding whether a former President is entitled to immunity from a particular prosecution is to distinguish his official from unofficial actions.” For example, the Court said a President has zero immunity when he acts as the leader of his political party, or when pursuing his personal interests.
Actually, assassinating political rivals would probably fall squarely under Tier 3 — enjoying no immunity at all.
As you can see, this three-tier system neither turns Presidents into kings —not Burger King, impotent King Charles, or Solomon— nor places presidents above the law. Certainly not Trump. The decision only resolved a couple of the worst counts in a single Trump case. As for the surviving counts involved in this particular appeal (Judge Chutkan’s case), the Supremes bounced most of the counts back down to her, to apply the new test and then get back to them.

Clueless, low-information Democrats are wailing that the Judges anointed a Presidential King by creating a three-tier test under which —wait for it— Presidents can be prosecuted for crimes. Democrats are acting like this is a revolutionary improvement of the Presidential position. But that, like nearly everything else partisan Democrats say, is a lie.
What was the rule before the Supreme Court issued its decision? Well, before Trump, no president was ever prosecuted for a crime. Not for droning an Iraqi wedding. Not for illegal wars. Not even for jaywalking or running lawn sprinklers on a Tuesday.
Presidential prosecutions never ever happened.

Don’t miss this: before Trump, presidents obviously enjoyed de facto total immunity. The unspoken rule that everyone followed was that nobody can prosecute the President, or even a former President.
During the period the de facto total immunity rule reigned, the Supreme Court never had to address Presidential immunity. There were no cases; that’s how absolute the immunity was. But now that the Court has crafted a de jure (legal) rubric, Presidents who do illegal things can be prosecuted. They can now be prosecuted much more easily, in fact. Just not for nuisance claims, like the creative, trumped-up claims brought against President Trump, such as for notating his check stubs wrong.
Let’s do a little thought experiment. Evidence shows President Obama was involved in the now-discredited Russia Dossier matter, which was used as a false predicate to spy on the Trump campaign for partisan political purposes. Evidence suggests Obama knew the Dossier was fake, purchased by the Clinton campaign. Yesterday’s new 3-tier test provides a clear procedure for prosecuting Obama for those very serious allegations.
In other words, the High Court incinerated de facto Presidential immunity, and replaced it with a clear de jure prosecutorial process. Former and future Presidents susceptible to more serious crimes than Trump’s are now fair game.


The irony! By bringing all these silly, creative claims against President Trump for keeping a few boxes of “classified documents,” and because his bookkeeper wrote the wrong thing on a check stub, the Supreme Court got an unprecedented opportunity to end forever the silent, implicit protection previously enjoyed by every other previous President. That de facto absolute immunity is gone, never to return.
And now it’s open season on serious crimes committed by Presidents.
If President Trump wins the election, this decision provides exactly the right tool his DOJ needs to prosecute the last twenty years of Presidential malfeasance and abuses of authority. It almost seems like Trump planned it this way. In hindsight, it couldn’t have gone any better for Trump in the big picture. When Trump’s DOJ brings its first charges against Biden and Obama, the media cannot wail about it being “unprecedented.” He’ll just be following the law.
Beyond those long-term benefits for President Trump, the decision also placed a massive granite capstone on out-of-control Presidential authority. All future Presidents, Trump included, must now consider potential criminal liability under the new Trump v. US standard. The new rule will make Presidents much more careful when acting outside their Constitutional authority, like when they mandate vaccine shots or something, just as a random example.
So … it’s not even so much that Trump won. The American People won.

More at: https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/dev...-july-2-2024-c


Andrew Jackson was not prosecuted for not enforcing treaties with the Native Americans. Prosecutors cannot be prosecuted for not prosecuting because they have immunity but they can be removed from office. Judges can be removed from office for not following their duty, but they cannot be prosecuted for it because they have immunity.
The Court just changed all of that, see above.

Your ridiculous "malfeasance" standard which is NO WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION let's you set up an imaginary and arbitrary standard where you in your own mind get to pick and choose what is impeachable and what is not.
It is in the Constitution, it's the meaning of High Crimes and Misdemeanors.
It's not my standard, it's a long established legal standard and it's not arbitrary at all.

The constitution didn't give YOU that power. It gave it to the Senate.

No, it most certainly does not.
The Senate is given sole power to run the trial, that is all.



My "problem" is that I'm actually faithful to the constitution and you are not.

No, you are not, I am.
And you continue to put your problem on full display for all to see for themselves.
 
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