Ron Paul's Economic Qualifications.

I think you will find that monetary cycles last roughly 40 years (plus or minus a year or two generally).

1971 is when the world was put onto the fiat standard.

I think you will get your answer sooner, rather then later.

Where did you get the 40 year figure from? The original gold standard lasted for hundreds of years and the Bretton Woods system operated for 26 years.

The problem is that you can't predict everything in economics, if you'll talk about 1980, US had seen massive inflation after going off the gold-standard & hyperinflation could've been a scenario but it's difficult to predict beforehand & Ron has said over & over again, every time interviewers ask him "How did you know collapse would happen so many years in advance?" & he ALWAYS says stresses the point that it's not possible to predict it but you know that when certain things are done, certain results are definite but it's difficult to predict the EXACT TIME in the future it'll happen so anyone who's studied Austrian Economics would've known that once we went on a COMPLETE toiler-paper standard, it wouldn't last long & it'd eventually crash somewhere down the line but the thing is that Fed & other central banks haven't just sit there, they've actively tried to prevent unraveling of the economic stupidity they've enforced on people but they can't do that forever but it's impossible to tell WHEN that's why he's been warning for years, it hasn't happened YET but that does NOT mean the warnings are wrong or that he's wrong.

The problem with this argument is that it's a form of special pleading, given enough time, any system will probably collapse or transform into something else. The problem is that Ron Paul didn't say that hyperinflation could occur somewhere down the line 30, 40 years from now, he said it that it would occur in the near future, meaning within a few months or years.

Put it this way, if the dollar survives to 2020 without collapsing, would Ron admit that his prediction had been wrong for 40 years, or will he say "just a few more years, and I'll finally be proven right" ?

The Austrian pleading of "well, the dollar is going to collapse next year" is the same as the Keynesians who rationalize their flawed predictions by saying "the stimulus's failure just proves we didn't spend enough".

If a prediction can't be falsified, then it's absolutely useless.
 
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Now this sounds like something Ron could have said yesterday. But it wasn't, he said it in 1981. He's been warning of an imminent economic collapse and hyperinflation for over 30 years and is still nowhere close to being proven right. While I really like a lot of Ron's economic policies, I have to question whether his reluctance to admit that he was wrong on this issue might affect his leadership in other areas. There's nothing worse than a President who can't admit that he made a mistake and refuses to change direction at all costs, see George W. Bush in Iraq.

Inflation was put on hold by the firesale of any real manufacturing to overseas manufacturers and the flood of cheap, prison made imports.

But that can only go on so long...

Right now, all that can happen is a continuing boom and bust cycle in increasingly short spans of time, in goods or services of less and less real value.
 
Where did you get the 40 year figure from? The original gold standard lasted for hundreds of years and the Bretton Woods system operated for 26 years.



The problem with this argument is that it's a form of special pleading, given enough time, any system will probably collapse or transform into something else. The problem is that Ron Paul didn't say that hyperinflation could occur somewhere down the line 30, 40 years from now, he said it that it would occur in the near future, meaning within a few months or years.

Put it this way, if the dollar survives to 2020 without collapsing, would Ron admit that his prediction had been wrong for 40 years, or will he say "just a few more years, and I'll finally be proven right" ?

The Austrian pleading of "well, the dollar is going to collapse next year" is the same as the Keynesians who rationalize their flawed predictions by saying "the stimulus's failure just proves we didn't spend enough".

If a prediction can't be falsified, then it's absolutely useless.

Let's look at it like this from a Ron Paul/Austrian Economic view, so as you might understand what he means by near future in the context of when he was saying it:

Let's say the US is a train[economy] on a track[timeline]. Now when the US abolished the Gold Standard that put a disaster in the future somewhere down the line, unbeknownst to anyone(because know one can no for sure..not even the Rothschilds and Rockafellers for you tin foil cats), that the track was set to fall into a great chasm[collapse of the dollar]. Now in 1981 the train was on a certain track, and Ron Paul said: "Hey if we keep up like this we will collapse in the near future" and of course in 1981 things changed, as they always do, nothing is constant. So think of this change as a change in the track, maybe we went to the left of an arbitrary fork in the road. As policies change throughout the times, the dollar is still inflating against the price of gold. Do you deny this fact? So basically, the train is still going to hit that chasm eventually. The train can deke left, right, do loops to please the passengers[stimulus] but that doesn't disprove that in the near future it will collapse. Now in 2011 we are still on this track to eminent collapse, and he still repeats this phrase because he will still be right. It's not a black and white issue, its grey, or maybe I should say It's not a blue and yellow issue, it's green.

Ron Paul doesn't want to be right about this. He doesn't want a collapse. You speak as though he does, just to prove his point. That is not what he is about.
How do you know he meant a few months anyway? Reading his mind? Posit that at the current level, without change, the dollar would collapse in the near future if no change is made. There have always been changes, just ones that kick the can further down the road.

How many people know that when Ludwig Von Mises taught at NYU and was never a salaried professor? His pay was graciously given to him by people(or person, I am forgetting specifically) that believed in him.

Also Austrian Economics doesn't try to predict the economy, it would never try to, it can however predict how a Keynesian economy will bust.
 
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Put it this way, if the dollar survives to 2020 without collapsing, would Ron admit that his prediction had been wrong for 40 years, or will he say "just a few more years, and I'll finally be proven right" ?

The Austrian pleading of "well, the dollar is going to collapse next year" is the same as the Keynesians who rationalize their flawed predictions by saying "the stimulus's failure just proves we didn't spend enough".

If a prediction can't be falsified, then it's absolutely useless.
Ron Paul was spot on. The dollar has already collapsed ... just not to zero, yet.

In 1968, one million dollars would have purchased one million silver dollars. Today one million dollars will purchase $28,500 silver dollars while one million silver dollars is worth $35,000,000. That is a collapse of the paper dollar.
 
Let's look at it like this from a Ron Paul/Austrian Economic view, so as you might understand what he means by near future in the context of when he was saying it:

Let's say the US is a train[economy] on a track[timeline]. Now when the US abolished the Gold Standard that put a disaster in the future somewhere down the line, unbeknownst to anyone(because know one can no for sure..not even the Rothschilds and Rockafellers for you tin foil cats), that the track was set to fall into a great chasm[collapse of the dollar]. Now in 1981 the train was on a certain track, and Ron Paul said: "Hey if we keep up like this we will collapse in the near future" and of course in 1981 things changed, as they always do, nothing is constant. So think of this change as a change in the track, maybe we went to the left of an arbitrary fork in the road. As policies change throughout the times, the dollar is still inflating against the price of gold. Do you deny this fact? So basically, the train is still going to hit that chasm eventually. The train can deke left, right, do loops to please the passengers[stimulus] but that doesn't disprove that in the near future it will collapse. Now in 2011 we are still on this track to eminent collapse, and he still repeats this phrase because he will still be right. It's not a black and white issue, its grey, or maybe I should say It's not a blue and yellow issue, it's green.

Ron Paul doesn't want to be right about this. He doesn't want a collapse. You speak as though he does, just to prove his point. That is not what he is about.
How do you know he meant a few months anyway? Reading his mind? Posit that at the current level, without change, the dollar would collapse in the near future if no change is made. There have always been changes, just ones that kick the can further down the road.

How many people know that when Ludwig Von Mises taught at NYU and was never a salaried professor? His pay was graciously given to him by people(or person, I am forgetting specifically) that believed in him.

Also Austrian Economics doesn't try to predict the economy, it would never try to, it can however predict how a Keynesian economy will bust.

I understand the basic Austrian assumption that a fiat money system is unsustainable, I just don’t agree with it. The question I’m asking is, what would prove to Austrians that they’re wrong in that assumption?

Ron Paul and others have been predicting an imminent monetary collapse for 30+ years and haven’t been swayed in their convictions one bit despite being wrong that entire time, isn’t there a point where they should give up?

Btw, I don’t attribute malicious motives to Ron Paul, I’m sure his beliefs are sincere and he’s the first one wishing that his predictions will be proven wrong. I also wasn’t trying to read his mind when I tried to put forth a likely timeline of his 1981 prediction, that was just my best interpretation of “in the near future”.

Also, I don’t deny that the price of gold has gone up recently, but it’s rather silly to attribute it to an inflation of the dollar. If that were true, then the dollar must have deflated by ~50% between 1980 and 2000. The price of gold, like the price of all commodities fluctuates all the time due to a number of internal and external shocks; it’s why fiat money provides a more stable and predictable inflationary environment than hard money. If I borrow a large sum of money to expand my business, I want to make sure that the money I have to pay back is of stable value; I don't want to have to worry about going out of business because a mining accident on the other side of the globe drove up the price of gold by 15% the day I have to pay back my loan.
 
A Short Story of Two Millionaires


L:collins:L ... :D

Fed Banker... :p
Your response to my claim that the dollar has already collapsed because it lost over 1200 times its purchasing value in 40 years is to point me to a wikipedia page on the "Neutrality of money"? Lulz... :rolleyes:

It implies that the central bank does not affect the real economy by printing money.
That is a bunch of hogwash.

Hypothetical story,
In 1968, one millionaire put his paper dollars in a chest and saved them. The other millionaire used his paper dollars to buy a million silver dollars and put them in a safe to save them.

Today the paper dollars are still worth one million dollars. The million silver dollars are worth $35 million. Where did the other $34 million go?
Hint: Ron Paul knows.

The dollar has collapsed.
When it collapses to zero will you still be posting on RPF, or will you will be hiding from people wielding pitchforks and torches?
 
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I understand the basic Austrian assumption that a fiat money system is unsustainable, I just don’t agree with it. The question I’m asking is, what would prove to Austrians that they’re wrong in that assumption?

Ok, for terminology's sake, lets at least call it a "theory" that fiat money is unsustainable, rather than an "assumption". Austrian economics doesn't make "assumptions" in developing theory, but only makes them to use the theory to analyze "assumed" scenarios.

Then we must ask: what is meant by "fiat money system". Does it mean a paper/token system generally, or does it mean such a system controlled by a central bank? If the latter, what are the properties of the central bank (what assumptions do we make about the funding system of the bank, about the political nature of the bank, or about the extent to which the central bank controls its monopoly on printing the fiat money)?

If we assume that the fiat money system is implemented by a central bank that has legal tender laws, among other things, we can first apply Say's law to notice that any near-full-weight coins are horded and pulled out of the economy because people would rather keep those and use the legally-equivalent paper to satisfy their currency needs. This leads to the eventual complete adoption of token coins, paper bills, and digital account transfers. Where nothing but the accounting unit is transferred.

Once an economy is in this state the central bank stops worrying about the old measures of value (the weight of gold or silver in a coin, the quality of fur in the traded pelts, the freshness of the tobacco in the traded bushels), and worries only about the number of units of money circulating in the economy. To a central banker the incentive is to appease those who are closest to you by always making sure that they have enough units of money to do what they think they should be able to do. What is the central banker's loss if he prints a couple of trillion dollars to lend away on short term notes? Or if he just gives it away?

When the money is divorced from real resources, and there is only one issuer of the money, it is an inevitable consequence that the money will collapse or the system will collapse. It is not an "assumption" that this will happen - it is the conclusion derived from the assumption of a central planning scheme in money.

Ron Paul and others have been predicting an imminent monetary collapse for 30+ years and haven’t been swayed in their convictions one bit despite being wrong that entire time, isn’t there a point where they should give up?

Btw, I don’t attribute malicious motives to Ron Paul, I’m sure his beliefs are sincere and he’s the first one wishing that his predictions will be proven wrong. I also wasn’t trying to read his mind when I tried to put forth a likely timeline of his 1981 prediction, that was just my best interpretation of “in the near future”.

The collapse is an inevitable conclusion. They should not give up, ever, due to a delay in observation. They should only give up when someone successfully attacks the logical basis for the scholarly deductions in the works like "Theory of Money and Credit". In the grand scheme of history, 40 years is a fleeting moment, a single generation. Maybe if 200 years went by under a single system of central fiat banking, then we'd have reason to suppose that the logic is wrong.

Also, I don’t deny that the price of gold has gone up recently, but it’s rather silly to attribute it to an inflation of the dollar. If that were true, then the dollar must have deflated by ~50% between 1980 and 2000. The price of gold, like the price of all commodities fluctuates all the time due to a number of internal and external shocks; it’s why fiat money provides a more stable and predictable inflationary environment than hard money. If I borrow a large sum of money to expand my business, I want to make sure that the money I have to pay back is of stable value; I don't want to have to worry about going out of business because a mining accident on the other side of the globe drove up the price of gold by 15% the day I have to pay back my loan.

Can you point to a single mining disaster in history that caused anything near the volatile price swing you're talking about here? I'd feel much safer about the "stability of value" of my contracts as priced in gold, silver, or beanie babies than I would about it being priced in the dollar. The assertions that you make about the fiat dollar being more "predictable" have been demonstrated to be 100% wrong in recent years using an Austrian take on econometics. I forget which author I was listening to on a Mises audio, but they've empirically shown that the Federal Reserve system is deficient in providing the stability you desire by looking at the volume and price of long term notes (25, 50, and 100 year T-bills, I think).

Forget about gold as a unique indicator of the value of the dollar, and look to the costs of ALL consumer goods or capital goods. It's true that any ONE of these items may have had "price shocks" that distorted their dollar trading price, but when you're looking at the stability of the dollar, you must compare to everything it was traded for, as it is a general medium of exchange. And, all else being equal, money printed by fiat and distributed to Federal Reserve favored entities like big banks and large firms will cause price inflation, and will do so before the common consumer sees any additional units of the money.

If I lent a large sum of money to someone to expand their business, I'd hate for the dollar to decline in purchasing power by 50% in 20 years, but lo and behold, under the Federal Reserve system it has done just that on average. This not only hurts me, the lender, but it also sets up by debtor for eventual failure. Because while he thought he was earning enough resources to cover his costs, his revenue was devalued and could buy less than the money units his costs were accounted in. It sets him up for a bust once the money stops being inflated, OR once the members of the economy compensate for an ever inflating unit of currency as compared to the real resources they deal in.

The Austrian Theory has more historical evidence backing its theory than any other comprehensive school of economics, and very very few "unexplainable events". Certainly Ron Paul knew this when he started predicting the collapse in the 1980s, and his prediction wasn't that "there will be a collapse", but it also ALWAYS contained a warning that the Federal Reserve could just keep inflating to "solve" the short term problem and make it's big customers happy, but that this would hurt the rest of America and would just push the crisis back another 4, 8, or 12 years and compound the level of maladjustment and correction needed to reestablish a well functioning economy focused on real products and services tailored to consumer demands.

If you're getting on the Austrians for "not giving up" after a mere 40 year episode of a fiat money system (which now more than ever is showing its fragility), how many central banking failures do you need to see before you give up on central banking? What has been the most stable, most successful, most prosperous central bank, in your opinion? If there hasn't been one, why do you have faith that you could devise one?
 
If I borrow a large sum of money to expand my business, I want to make sure that the money I have to pay back is of stable value; I don't want to have to worry about going out of business because a mining accident on the other side of the globe drove up the price of gold by 15% the day I have to pay back my loan.

hahahahahahaha! you realize thats exactly what happened during qe1! you lost 15% of your investments/retirement savings.
 
Ok, for terminology's sake, lets at least call it a "theory" that fiat money is unsustainable, rather than an "assumption". Austrian economics doesn't make "assumptions" in developing theory, but only makes them to use the theory to analyze "assumed" scenarios.

Then we must ask: what is meant by "fiat money system". Does it mean a paper/token system generally, or does it mean such a system controlled by a central bank? If the latter, what are the properties of the central bank (what assumptions do we make about the funding system of the bank, about the political nature of the bank, or about the extent to which the central bank controls its monopoly on printing the fiat money)?

If we assume that the fiat money system is implemented by a central bank that has legal tender laws, among other things, we can first apply Say's law to notice that any near-full-weight coins are horded and pulled out of the economy because people would rather keep those and use the legally-equivalent paper to satisfy their currency needs. This leads to the eventual complete adoption of token coins, paper bills, and digital account transfers. Where nothing but the accounting unit is transferred.

Once an economy is in this state the central bank stops worrying about the old measures of value (the weight of gold or silver in a coin, the quality of fur in the traded pelts, the freshness of the tobacco in the traded bushels), and worries only about the number of units of money circulating in the economy. To a central banker the incentive is to appease those who are closest to you by always making sure that they have enough units of money to do what they think they should be able to do. What is the central banker's loss if he prints a couple of trillion dollars to lend away on short term notes? Or if he just gives it away?

When the money is divorced from real resources, and there is only one issuer of the money, it is an inevitable consequence that the money will collapse or the system will collapse. It is not an "assumption" that this will happen - it is the conclusion derived from the assumption of a central planning scheme in money.

The public choice argument here is certainly interesting, but it alone doesn't guarantee a monetary failure, like it doesn't guarantee the failure of any other government program. Sometimes corruption is less costly than coordination problems.

The collapse is an inevitable conclusion. They should not give up, ever, due to a delay in observation. They should only give up when someone successfully attacks the logical basis for the scholarly deductions in the works like "Theory of Money and Credit". In the grand scheme of history, 40 years is a fleeting moment, a single generation. Maybe if 200 years went by under a single system of central fiat banking, then we'd have reason to suppose that the logic is wrong.

If you can't give me an example of what it would take for you to accept that you're wrong on this, then your belief in the collapse of the dollar is essentially faith.

Can you point to a single mining disaster in history that caused anything near the volatile price swing you're talking about here? I'd feel much safer about the "stability of value" of my contracts as priced in gold, silver, or beanie babies than I would about it being priced in the dollar. The assertions that you make about the fiat dollar being more "predictable" have been demonstrated to be 100% wrong in recent years using an Austrian take on econometics. I forget which author I was listening to on a Mises audio, but they've empirically shown that the Federal Reserve system is deficient in providing the stability you desire by looking at the volume and price of long term notes (25, 50, and 100 year T-bills, I think).

Forget about gold as a unique indicator of the value of the dollar, and look to the costs of ALL consumer goods or capital goods. It's true that any ONE of these items may have had "price shocks" that distorted their dollar trading price, but when you're looking at the stability of the dollar, you must compare to everything it was traded for, as it is a general medium of exchange. And, all else being equal, money printed by fiat and distributed to Federal Reserve favored entities like big banks and large firms will cause price inflation, and will do so before the common consumer sees any additional units of the money.

If I lent a large sum of money to someone to expand their business, I'd hate for the dollar to decline in purchasing power by 50% in 20 years, but lo and behold, under the Federal Reserve system it has done just that on average. This not only hurts me, the lender, but it also sets up by debtor for eventual failure. Because while he thought he was earning enough resources to cover his costs, his revenue was devalued and could buy less than the money units his costs were accounted in. It sets him up for a bust once the money stops being inflated, OR once the members of the economy compensate for an ever inflating unit of currency as compared to the real resources they deal in.

The Austrian Theory has more historical evidence backing its theory than any other comprehensive school of economics, and very very few "unexplainable events". Certainly Ron Paul knew this when he started predicting the collapse in the 1980s, and his prediction wasn't that "there will be a collapse", but it also ALWAYS contained a warning that the Federal Reserve could just keep inflating to "solve" the short term problem and make it's big customers happy, but that this would hurt the rest of America and would just push the crisis back another 4, 8, or 12 years and compound the level of maladjustment and correction needed to reestablish a well functioning economy focused on real products and services tailored to consumer demands.

If you're getting on the Austrians for "not giving up" after a mere 40 year episode of a fiat money system (which now more than ever is showing its fragility), how many central banking failures do you need to see before you give up on central banking? What has been the most stable, most successful, most prosperous central bank, in your opinion? If there hasn't been one, why do you have faith that you could devise one?

1- I used the mine example because I thought it was an easy way to illustrate the impact of external shocks on the price of gold. If you want a real-life example, look at the price of gold on 9/11. It went up by more than 33% in one day.

2- You don't seem to understand that the right on inflation is taken into account when the interest rate is set. If I want to lend you $1000 at a 2% interest rate and the inflation rate is 2%, then you'll have to pay me back $1040. If we want to make the same transaction in gold, then it's pretty much impossible to make it in a fair way as we have no way of knowing what the value of gold will be in a year.

The value of gold has gone up ~34% in the last year, where will it be in July 2012? It's much, much easier to predict the value of the dollar one or ten years from now than it is the price of any commodity.

3- In order to change my mind on this I would A- need to see how a decentralized monetary system could provide a stable currency in a modern economy. Or B- see a currency collapse in a way which cannot be properly explained by any modern monetary theories. And since you asked, my favorite central bank is the Reserve Bank of New Zealand.
 
L:collins:L ... :D

Fed Banker... :p
Your response to my claim that the dollar has already collapsed because it lost over 1200 times its purchasing value in 40 years is to point me to a wikipedia page on the "Neutrality of money"? Lulz... :rolleyes:


That is a bunch of hogwash.

Hypothetical story,
In 1968, one millionaire put his paper dollars in a chest and saved them. The other millionaire used his paper dollars to buy a million silver dollars and put them in a safe to save them.

Today the paper dollars are still worth one million dollars. The million silver dollars are worth $35 million. Where did the other $34 million go?
Hint: Ron Paul knows.

The dollar has collapsed.
When it collapses to zero will you still be posting on RPF, or will you will be hiding from people wielding pitchforks and torches?

If you had a million dollars, I couldn't think of anything more useless to do with it than buying a bunch of shiny metal and locking it in a box for 43 years.

The price of gold and silver have gone up recently and the dollar has slowly depreciated through stable inflation. That's the way it's supposed to work, the dollar will continue to remain at a ~2% inflation level while gold and silver will go up and down due to speculation.

Gold lost about half of its value between 1980 and 2000, did that mean that the dollar doubled in value? No, it just means that gold was worth less.


Btw, stop with the crazy quasi-violent anti-banker rhetoric. You're representing Ron Paul, start acting like it.
 
2% inflation? I WISH! Classic "blame speculators" line of defense. Love it.

It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning. - Henry Ford
 
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