Ron Paul: Why should those that honor religious freedom support him?


And they were, once again, dead wrong! (can you say Dred Scott)

The term was first semi-coined when Jefferson wrote about a "wall of separation between church and state"... it was adapted (by the Media of the time and later) until the other term was adopted and used... again, by the media, and the supreme court.

"Separation of Church and State" does not exist in the Constitution and was a media perversion that has infected the mind of many... including the supreme court... and the decision was 5-4... hardly convincing. Did four of them get it wrong... or did five of them get it wrong? Bottom Line, its not in the Constitution.
 
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http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/7th/041914p.pdf
According to the 7th Circuit Court of Appeals, atheism is a religion.

Very interesting. This man was a prisoner, and wanted to start a study group interested in humanism, atheism, and free speaking.

The problem here was that the prison
officials did not treat atheism as a “religion,” perhaps in
keeping with Kaufman’s own insistence that it is the
antithesis of religion. But whether atheism is a “religion”
for First Amendment purposes is a somewhat differ-
ent question than whether its adherents believe in a
supreme being, or attend regular devotional services, or
have a sacred Scripture. The Supreme Court has said that a
religion, for purposes of the First Amendment, is distinct
from a “way of life,” even if that way of life is inspired by
philosophical beliefs or other secular concerns.

Atheism may be a religion for First Amendment purposes, but it is not a religion in the everyday sense of the word. This was a fair ruling, because the officials allowed other religions to set up shop and indoctrinate their fellow inmates, there is no reason an atheist can't free their minds. If religion wasn't given special privilege here, there wouldn't have been a problem.
 
Very interesting. This man was a prisoner, and wanted to start a study group interested in humanism, atheism, and free speaking.



Atheism may be a religion for First Amendment purposes, but it is not a religion in the everyday sense of the word. This was a fair ruling, because the officials allowed other religions to set up shop and indoctrinate their fellow inmates, there is no reason an atheist can't free their minds. If religion wasn't given special privilege here, there wouldn't have been a problem.

Well, I'm not disagreeing with the ruling. I'm not going to argue whether it is a religion in everyday life. But it does make atheism a religion in the eyes of the state, thus affecting public schools.
 
A religion only for first amendment purposes.

Exactly. Religion is protected under the first amendment. The court decided that atheism is a religion and must be protected. That inmate should be allowed to start the atheist group, just as a high school teacher should be allowed to wear a sweater that says "Jesus is the Reason for the Season," just as a little boy is allowed to read the Bible during school if he wants, just a little girl can post a picture of the Nativity Scene up on her classroom wall during the Christmas season.
 
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The Supreme Court has made many rulings against our Constitution--why should I trust them? It's not like the judicial branch is somehow immune to corruption--if anything, it's more likely they will be corrupt since they have no term limits.

The government has made rulings against the Constitution. The Supreme Court has, more often then not, protected the rights of individuals, even against the current majoritarian zetigeist, as in the case of Everson and the Civil Rights movements...
 
Exactly. Religion is protected under the first amendment. The court decided that atheism is a religion and must be protected. That inmate should be allowed to start the atheist group, just as a high school teacher should be allowed to wear a sweater that says "Jesus is the Reason for the Season," just as a little boy is allowed to read the Bible during school if he wants, just a little girl can post a picture of the Nativity Scene up on her classroom wall during the Christmas season.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/education/14844657/detail.html?rss=dgo&psp=news

So by your standard, this lawsuit was illegitimate?
 
You know it.

That's fair... I could agree with that... if your willing to allow the same kind of so called tolerance...

You are okay with Teachers teaching your kids that god isn't real? In fact, insulting it?
 
That's fair... I could agree with that... if your willing to allow the same kind of so called tolerance...

You are okay with Teachers teaching your kids that god isn't real? In fact, insulting it?

I think there is room for the school to use judgement. It has to be in context. Should a math teacher use his/her time while teaching equations to push a pro-religion or anti-religous agenda? No, because it disrupts the flow of learning and has nothing to do with the lesson plan. If the school uses its judgement and makes the wrong call, they should be held accountable.
 
I think there is room for the school to use judgement. It has to be in context. Should a math teacher use his/her time while teaching equations to push a pro-religion or anti-religous agenda? No, because it disrupts the flow of learning and has nothing to do with the lesson plan. If the school uses its judgement and makes the wrong call, they should be held accountable.

A pro-religious agenda in a science class disrupts everything having to do with science... so my original point has never failed...

I'm all about teaching the failures of creationism though.
 
A pro-religious agenda in a science class disrupts everything having to do with science... so my original point has never failed...

I'm all about teaching the failures of creationism though.

My point hasn't either. We have something in common.
 
It is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. "In God We Trust" is on some currency. It has no legal basis. "One Nation Under God" is part of the pledge of allegiance, and also has no legal basis. Citizens or non-citizens are under no obligation to recite the pledge of allegiance.

Also, nowhere in the Constitution does it mention "separation of church and state." Thomas Jefferson originally used this phrase in a context that did not have all the connotations that it does today. The 1st Amendment was designed to give people the freedom to worship in the manner they wished. The writers did not want people leaving America for religious freedom, as did people in England.
 
It is freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.

I thought freedom of religion was freedom from government influence over religion.

"In God We Trust" is on some currency. It has no legal basis. "One Nation Under God" is part of the pledge of allegiance, and also has no legal basis. Citizens or non-citizens are under no obligation to recite the pledge of allegiance.

A government that attempts to influence our duty to trust in God is an evil government. A people who allow such an abomination are also evil.

Also, nowhere in the Constitution does it mention "separation of church and state."

The exclusion of religion from the cognizance of the federal government clearly separates religion from government.

Thomas Jefferson originally used this phrase in a context that did not have all the connotations that it does today.

The Constitution wasn't adopted with the understanding that it would be interpreted according to what Thomas Jefferson thought. You need to learn about the common law rules of construction.

The 1st Amendment was designed to give people the freedom to worship in the manner they wished.

Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention "the freedom to worship in the manner they wished." :D:D:D:D:D:D
 
I thought freedom of religion was freedom from government influence over religion.



A government that attempts to influence our duty to trust in God is an evil government. A people who allow such an abomination are also evil.



The exclusion of religion from the cognizance of the federal government clearly separates religion from government.



The Constitution wasn't adopted with the understanding that it would be interpreted according to what Thomas Jefferson thought. You need to learn about the common law rules of construction.



Nowhere in the Constitution does it mention "the freedom to worship in the manner they wished." :D:D:D:D:D:D


This debate is useless with people who think all mention of religion is evil in any context of government. You have to realize that some legislators and leaders might have religious beliefs, and it is their right to express them, but not to impose their beliefs on the governed. It just shouldn't be an issue, shouldn't be discussed, and really isn't a problem right now. I am surrounded by atheistic thought, and I happen to be a theist, but this neither offends me, nor would it cause me to impose theistic values on others. Values and morals shouldn't be governed, and that includes not disallowing the free practice of religion in any government institution, nor establishing it as a requirement.

The fact that you are offended by "In God We Trust" is troublesome to me, because I am not offended when people tell me that God is evil and that all religion is horrible and the root of all problems today. That is their right to hold that position.
 
This debate is useless with people who think all mention of religion is evil in any context of government. You have to realize that some legislators and leaders might have religious beliefs, and it is their right to express them, but not to impose their beliefs on the governed. It just shouldn't be an issue, shouldn't be discussed, and really isn't a problem right now. I am surrounded by atheistic thought, and I happen to be a theist, but this neither offends me, nor would it cause me to impose theistic values on others. Values and morals shouldn't be governed, and that includes not disallowing the free practice of religion in any government institution, nor establishing it as a requirement.

The fact that you are offended by "In God We Trust" is troublesome to me, because I am not offended when people tell me that God is evil and that all religion is horrible and the root of all problems today. That is their right to hold that position.

Good post. I would argue the statement that values and morals shouldn't be governed though.
 
This debate is useless with people who think all mention of religion is evil in any context of government.

I agree. It's also useless to debate those who see obvious assumptions of civil authority over religion as mere mentions of religion.

You have to realize that some legislators and leaders might have religious beliefs, and it is their right to express them...

Freedom of religion does not include freedom for civil authorities to use their office to exercise influence over religion.

but not to impose their beliefs on the governed.

What about attempting to influence the peoples' religion without imposing it?

The fact that you are offended by "In God We Trust" is troublesome to me

The fact that you're not concerned about the assumption of civil authority over the duty to trust in God is troubling to me.
 
I agree. It's also useless to debate those who see obvious assumptions of civil authority over religion as mere mentions of religion.



Freedom of religion does not include freedom for civil authorities to use their office to exercise influence over religion.



What about attempting to influence the peoples' religion without imposing it?



The fact that you're not concerned about the assumption of civil authority over the duty to trust in God is troubling to me.


Alright, two different takes. I do not believe that there is an assumed civil authority of our leaders to influence our religion. I am merely saying that they are human beings too, and entitled to have religious beliefs. As long as the Church of the United States is not created I am happy. Once the one world government takes over, if it does happen, will most likely establish a world religion, and that is what frightens me. With the up and coming NAU, I am worried about an official Church of North America, or other. I am in agreement with Ron Paul on this issue, that the first Amendment merely prevented the establishment of a Church of the United States. A church like this would be frightening.

I would like to say that I am in agreement over something like not allowing the ten commandments in courtrooms. It is foolish, because the ten commandments have nothing to do with a secular judicial system. America is too diverse to turn into a Nazi type religious fascism. The people won't allow it, however, I see your point that secretive influence over religion is a sneaky way to make religious fascism acceptable. The more government takes control, the more you can be sure that religious freedom will be decreased.

This is why I think issues like prayer in school should be left up to local governments. This promotes freedom, because if a parent does or does not want prayer in a school, then she or he can move to another district, or whatever. Respect the First Amendment, don't allow a national church. Respect local and state rights, support the tenth amendment.
 
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Alright, two different takes. I do not believe that there is an assumed civil authority of our leaders to influence our religion. I am merely saying that they are human beings too, and entitled to have religious beliefs. As long as the Church of the United States is not created I am happy. Once the one world government takes over, if it does happen, will most likely establish a world religion, and that is what frightens me. With the up and coming NAU, I am worried about an official Church of North America, or other. I am in agreement with Ron Paul on this issue, that the second Amendment merely prevented the establishment of a Church of the United States. A church like this would be frightening.

I would like to say that I am in agreement over something like not allowing the ten commandments in courtrooms. It is foolish, because the ten commandments have nothing to do with a secular judicial system. America is too diverse to turn into a Nazi type religious fascism. The people won't allow it, however, I see your point that secretive influence over religion is a sneaky way to make religious fascism acceptable. The more government takes control, the more you can be sure that religious freedom will be decreased.

This is why I think issues like prayer in school should be left up to local governments. This promotes freedom, because if a parent does or does not want prayer in a school, then she or he can move to another district, or whatever. Respect the Second Amendment, don't allow a national church. Respect local and state rights, support the tenth amendment.

I question your ability to understand any of these issues.
 
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