Ron Paul & voluntarists

I don't understand why I frustrate you. I get +reps from Ron Paul supporters.
Nonetheless, I do find this thread humorous. As a Ron Paul and constitutional republic supporter, I wonder where voluntaryist's support lies. Ron Paul is a student of Rothbard & Mises. If we are all sincere in achieving liberty in our lifetimes, then surely most of us are fairly closely aligned philosophically.
You frustrate me because you slander me and because you lie about me (and others). You also try to criticize philosophies that you clearly don't understand and aren't willing to learn about.

You wonder where the voluntaryist's support lies-it lies in freedom, voluntary relationships between individuals and groups, and peace. If you do in fact take Mises' and Rothbard's insights seriously, then yes we are quite close philosophically. IIRC, Mises supported an individual's right to secession and nullification(in the book "Liberalism", I believe)-something I have long been in favor of. :cool: I hope more minarchists take up this cause in the future, as it is in their best interests as well.
 
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Ron Paul is most certainly a voluntarist in relation to the marketplace - politically he's an American Constitutionalist because realistically it's the best we've ever come up with fairly distributing political power. The Constitution is CHANGEABLE - but through a set of rigorous and uncompromising measures. It keeps the changes honest and leaves the scars of prior societies widely viewable.

Changes to the Constitution so far have been done through cheating that process of laws and those changes have over inflated the Federal Government. They must be repealed and a few minor changes about monetary policy need to be implemented.

The ultimate indicator of success in my mind is whether or not the new generation is in agreement with the mythical social contract (that doesn't really exist)...But if the "contract" that is the Constituition is so well defined and UNAGGRESSIVE in nature, it's reknewal may occur organically.

Judging by his body language in interviews, I have the deep suspicion that RP is a market anarchist - politically he's a realist and an astute observer of human behavior and the effects of concentrated power on society...

But in relation TO THE MARKET PLACE...RP is a voluntarist, no doubt about that.
 
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"Political agendas perceived as extremist often include those from the far left or far right as well as fundamentalism or, as a more general term, fanaticism."

"a tendency or disposition to go to extremes or an instance of going to extremes, especially in political matters: leftist extremism; the extremism of the Nazis."

"a person who favours or resorts to immoderate, uncompromising, or fanatical methods or behaviour, esp in being politically radical"

Come on newbitech, I thought you were better than that. Guess not. False left right paradigm, which leads to

For some twenty centuries Western man has come to accept the Aristotelian theory that the sensible position is between any two extremes, known politically today as the “middle-of-the-road” position. Now, if libertarians use the terms “left” and “right,” they announce themselves to be extreme right by virtue of being extremely distant in their beliefs from communism. But “right” has been successfully identified with fascism. Therefore, more and more persons are led to believe that the sound position is somewhere between communism and fascism, both spelling authoritarianism.

The golden-mean theory cannot properly be applied indiscriminately. For instance, it is sound enough when deciding between no food at all on the one hand or gluttony on the other hand. But it is patently unsound when deciding between stealing nothing or stealing $1,000. The golden mean would commend stealing $500. Thus, the golden mean has no more soundness when applied to communism and fascism (two names for the same thing) than it does to two amounts in theft.” [...]

Libertarians reject this principle and in so doing are not to the right or left of authoritarians. They, as the human spirit they would free, ascend—are above—this degradation. Their position, if directional analogies are to be used, is up—in the sense that vapor from a muckheap rises to a wholesome atmosphere. If the idea of extremity is to be applied to a libertarian, let it be based on how extremely well he has shed himself of authoritarian beliefs.

Establish this concept of emerging, of freeing — which is the meaning of libertarianism—and the golden – mean or “middle-of-the-road” theory becomes inapplicable. For there can be no halfway position between zero and infinity. It is absurd to suggest that there can be.
- Neither Left nor Right, Leonard Read​

Maybe Ron Paul is perceived as an extremist because some of his supporters are? Maybe Ron Paul's ideas of liberty are extreme because the country and world has lurched so far away from true liberty?

Just because you and I don't consider liberty and freedom to be extremist views, doesn't mean they aren't. It't called respecting other folks opinions and ideas even if they are radically different from our own. You do this by listening and understanding where someone is coming from. Not by belittling them, not by throwing daggers at their support, and certainly not by holding up someone else's ideas, words, and opinions in a way that makes them look like something they are not.

You're wrong in labeling them 'extremist', so is the rest of the country. Appeal to popularity fallacy.

Now, Conza, I know you have a completely different definition of extremism right? You are going to tell me again that the definition I used is wrong because the source is wrong. So lets have it, go ahead and define extremism for me. While your at it, go ahead and go back to those other definitions I provided and gives us the correct definitions for those as well. In the mean time, I will contact the publishers of these other sources and tell them that Conza said they are full of shit. Nah, not really, but it might not be that ridiculous or extreme thing to do, pending your investigation of what words mean, of course.

No, because it is illogical and a fallacy - false paradigm. OR do you DISAGREE with that the left / right paradigm is false? Do you disagree with Ron Paul? Aye? :rolleyes:

I use the standard libertarian conception, as accepted by Ron Paul, and others here. Don't know why you don't. Just a way to continue arguing no doubt.

I'm not an extremeist, nor is Ron Paul. We are however, radicals - latin for 'strike at the root' cause. I.e Address the actual problem.

The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
— H.L. Mencken (Letter to Upton Sinclair, October 14, 1917)
 
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Pretty sure those are just example of extremism Conza. You are trying too hard. Make it easy on yourself.

Think of your original post, on how Ron Paul described what YOU want to be, a voluntaryist. Right? So no coercion.

From one extreme, a relative voluntary society to the other extreme (the opposite) the authoritarian approach.

This is the context in which I used the word extremist. Do you see how Ron Paul talks about the difference between the two without coming across as extremist? Also notice how Ron Paul answers the next question, do we have a chance of achieving society based on those ideals? Not soon.

So there are some intermediate steps. Why? Because right now, unfortunately and almost unbelievably, a voluntary society is an extreme position in our current authoritarian state.

That should be easy for you to accept, just as in a voluntary society, cops running around arresting people for non violent crimes like smoking pot would seem to be extreme (as one example). Stepping in between a voluntary contract between two parties and taking a piece of the action from both sides would be extreme. Again, and unfortunately right now, those things are accepted as the norm!

We have a long way to go before those types of things are considered extremism and the opposite is considered the norm. So rather than trying to cram extremist idea's down people's throats, why don't you find a different approach? Hmmm? Well, I am not even asking you to do that. I just want you to back off pinning labels on people.

All I can do is ask, and all I can do is point out how you are wrong for continually trashing views that are not in line with yours. False left right paradigm example....

COnza's opinion........................................ .......................Anyone who disagrees.
 
Point conceded. I do believe that we need to be careful about the use of terminology around here, particularly during the election cycle (though the problem is over exaggerated). I've thought for a while that we should switch to 'Rothbardian' or 'voluntarist' for the sake of the campaign. Anarchist may be technically accurate under certain usages of the term but it's not a particularly marketable word.
Thank you josh. I asked around a little bit yesterday without wearing my Ron Paul gear and I found 100% of the people I talked to thought that anarchy was an extremely negative connotation. The hard working people of the world don't want anything to do with it. I suspect that most people would embrace a voluntary society if they understood it like the members on this board.

Regarding the Constitution, we are not allowed to criticize it at all, even if it is to argue that even more restraints should have been put on the government?
My personal opinion is that the Constitution is highly flawed. Thankfully there is an amendment process. Since it is the supreme law of the land, and it contains the Bill of Rights, we can use it to our advantage.

Interesting. What if one of us was to argue against the Constitution and for the Articles of Confederation? That doesn't seem too off-putting to voters. I would think that more academic discussion on here would convince more potential voters that we know what we are talking about.
The States were organized under the Articles of Confederation. That may have been a superior way to organize states. I don't join in that debate because I don't know enough about it. Perhaps the Constitution could be amended to embrace those ideas if desired, I don't know. I want our political leaders to be lawful. Ron Paul leads that concept by example.

As long as we don't use forbidden words like 'anarchy' of course.
The word is not forbidden, it is the idea that we can enlighten a majority of TV watching voters on its etymology before November 2012 that is questioned. And since it currently holds such a negative connotation, then it is wise to put the promotion of anarchy on the back burner during the election cycle for anyone who thinks a President Ron Paul would be good.

A little over optimistic there eh Travlyr? Remember that Ron Paul still has a century's worth of Statism to overturn and interests in the rest of the government to fight against if he gets elected. His victory in the election is a stepping stone on the way peace and prosperity not the end of the road.
One step in the right direction will be a great first step. I do not declare victory; nonetheless, Ron Paul said he will send ships to the Middle East as fast as they could go to bring the troops home. A President Ron Paul as Commander in Chief will work toward peace at the outset of his presidency. Ron Paul said he would pardon non-violent federal offenders who had not committed other serious crimes. He would look to using a house arrest system rather than cages. Prosperity will take longer, but a step in the right direction is my goal for 2012.

I promote the Constitution as a way of helping the campaign. I'm also voting for the good doctor. What more do you want? Also, even though the verdict isn't in, I think Conza made a pretty good case for Ron Paul being a voluntarist.
I fully agree. I was not on these boards last election. Conza was and I see he has a lot of cheerleaders. His intelligence is welcome and his philosophy is welcome as well. His political antics will help to defeat Ron Paul. I don't know if that is his intention, but his reappearance at election time is interesting, and the divisive threads he is bumping is suspect as well.

I think that is also why we don't hear much from Ron Paul about LewRockwell.com and the Mises Institute anymore. Ron talks about sound money, Austrian economics, and non-interventionist foreign policy but last election the media was successful in painting Ron Paul as a racist due in part to political antics of "friends." Ron Paul supports their philosophy but they do not return political support in kind. Anarchists are Ron's political Achilles Heal.

If only that were possible with the State involved. I prefer Rothbard, Conza, and others' quest 'for liberty, peace, and prosperity' over yours.
My quest is simply to elect Ron Paul as President of the United States of America and return to using real money in transactions. Since Ron Paul was a proud student of Rothbard, I seriously doubt your quest is much different than mine.
 
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You frustrate me because you slander me and because you lie about me (and others). You also try to criticize philosophies that you clearly don't understand and aren't willing to learn about.

You wonder where the voluntaryist's support lies-it lies in freedom, voluntary relationships between individuals and groups, and peace. If you do in fact take Mises' and Rothbard's insights seriously, then yes we are quite close philosophically. IIRC, Mises supported an individual's right to secession and nullification(in the book "Liberalism", I believe)-something I have long been in favor of. :cool: I hope more minarchists take up this cause in the future, as it is in their best interests as well.
I don't have any problem with you HB. My goal this election cycle is to help Ron Paul win as "Defender of Liberty" because I am a selfish individual who is sold on his ideas. I don't worry about philosophy, and you are right I'm out of my league in that debate. I'm bowing out of it. Nevertheless, I will remain persistent ferreting out anyone who intentionally works to derail Ron's campaign. I ask others if they will refrain from derailing it unintentionally.
 
Excuse me... but WHY the hell was my post in response to newbitech deleted / completely removed / censored?

Too much truth for ya'll obviously! [Pm if you want a copy] It was in between #160-161. Am I wrong mods? Aye? :rolleyes:

Sidenote: I just want to take this opportunity to thank newbitech, Travlyr, deborah k & the other CD's (cognitive dissonants*)... without you guys, the reality of Ron Paul being a voluntarist would hardly see the light on day in this place. Every post you guys make, you help change minds for the better. Thank you so much :D Keep it up ;)


You live in a dream world Conza, on another continent I might add. What do you really care about the future of America? My guess is you could give a rat's ass about Americans and their freedom. The only thing you seem to be interested in is coming here and recruiting people to your philosophy, which basically does not include getting Ron Paul elected. I've already seen, in the comments section of internet articles, where people are labeling Ron Paul an anarchist and claiming they will not vote for him because of it. You have no right or business interfering with our elections or labeling Ron Paul. YOU are the one experiencing cognitive dissonance if you think threads like this will help Ron get elected! You don't seem to get that achieving the kind of society you dream about has to be done in an systematic way, as an incremental process, first by electing a President who wants to legalize freedom! You, and others like you, who don't live in this country either don't care about that, or you are strategically and politically ignorant! OR, you don't think he can win anyway so you're just going to do as much damage to this forum as you can! Whatever the reason is, why don't you just take your recruits and go start your own forum.

Let it be known to any newcomers to this forum, that this OP's opinions of Ron Paul are rejected outright by those of us who believe Ron has a chance to win.

Conza, stick to your self righteous philosophizing, and leave Ron Paul out of it!
 
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Here's just a little reminder of what's in the OP, since there's a lot of side-discussion that has gone off on a lot of tangents since the OP....




ADAM KOKESH: So you've described yourself as a voluntarist. Can you tell us what that means for the big picture, and what your ideal society would be, as a voluntarist?

RON PAUL: Voluntary means no coercion. So if you want to change people's habits or change the world you should do it by setting examples and trying to persuade people to do it. You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. So voluntary use of information and persuading people, I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at.


So, out of this we can come to 2 possible conclusions, as far as I can see...

1. Adam Kokesh outright lied to Ron Pauls face, and Ron Paul not only chooses not to correct him but instead go on to sound rather supportive of the assertion, to the point of saying "I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

2. Ron Paul is a voluntarist.
 
1. Adam Kokesh outright lied to Ron Pauls face, and Ron Paul not only chooses not to correct him but instead go on to sound rather supportive of the assertion, to the point of saying "I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

2. Ron Paul is a voluntarist.
And a voluntary society can exist within the State.
 
How? Are you defining the state as something other than that entity which enjoys a monopoly of force within a given geographic area?
I don't define words. A voluntary society can exist within any one of the existing 50 States in America. All that needs done to achieve that goal is to amend their constitutions.
 
I really think the forum minarchists who make a point of arguing against an-cap and voluntaryist philosophy on a regular basis are probably responsible for opening more minds up to voluntaryism and anarchy than the an-caps themselves.

Before I joined up here I had no idea how strained the relationship was between the traditional Rothbardian libertarians and the newer minarchists. More and more this post seems to be the case.

Well, as long as the we're all supporting Paul I really don't care how this turns out. Let's get this thread back on topic.
 
I don't define words. A voluntary society can exist within any one of the existing 50 States in America. All that needs done to achieve that goal is to amend their constitutions.

You didn't say "a state". You said, "the State".

The United States of America is known as such because the country was founded as a loose confederation of states - independent governing districts; just as Great Britain was/is a state, France is/was a state, and Maryland was a state - 'was' because it's authority as an independent governing district has been for all intents and purposes entirely usurped by the federal government established by the Constitution. The term state directly refers to a particular geographic region under some authority.

Don't duck the question - how is it possible for fully voluntary associations to exist within the context of particular geographic region wherein a particular entity enjoys a monopoly of force?
 
You didn't say "a state". You said, "the State".

The United States of America is known as such because the country was founded as a loose confederation of states - independent governing districts; just as Great Britain was/is a state, France is/was a state, and Maryland was a state - 'was' because it's authority as an independent governing district has been for all intents and purposes entirely usurped by the federal government established by the Constitution. The term state directly refers to a particular geographic region under some authority.
I do not agree with this premise. (bold)
Don't duck the question - how is it possible for fully voluntary associations to exist within the context of particular geographic region wherein a particular entity enjoys a monopoly of force?
Perhaps I don't understand the intent of your question, but I would think that if the State Constitutions were amended to have no penalty for not paying taxes, then it would be a voluntary State.
 
How? Are you defining the state as something other than that entity which enjoys a monopoly of force within a given geographic area?

What is wrong with force? Are you confusing the term with coercion? No matter, I am currently enjoying a monopoly of force within my given geographic area. I am "state"! yaya!

Not to be a total asshat, but that definition of "the state" seems to be missing something. I wonder what it is?
 
I do not agree with this premise. (bold)

You don't agree that Maryland, etc., was an independent colony before it was a subservient federal district?

Perhaps I don't understand the intent of your question, but I would think that if the State Constitutions were amended to have no penalty for not paying taxes, then it would be a voluntary State.

State constitutions would have to be amended to allow for competition in all areas of human interaction - not just the funding of monopolized services. An individual must be free to contract with, for example, security agencies other than the local government police, etc.
 
What is wrong with force? Are you confusing the term with coercion? No matter, I am currently enjoying a monopoly of force within my given geographic area. I am "state"! yaya!

Not to be a total asshat, but that definition of "the state" seems to be missing something. I wonder what it is?

There's nothing wrong with that definition of the state, because you do not enjoy a monopoly of force within whatever geographic region you're currently occupying... unless you're posting from some stateless territory on this planet of which I'm not aware...?
 
You don't agree that Maryland, etc., was an independent colony before it was a subservient federal district?
Prior to the "War Between the States" and counterfeiting by oligarchs in America, the States were not considered subservient to the federal district.

State constitutions would have to be amended to allow for competition in all areas of human interaction - not just the funding of monopolized services. An individual must be free to contract with, for example, security agencies other than the local government police, etc.
Nobody said it would be easy.
 
There's nothing wrong with that definition of the state, because you do not enjoy a monopoly of force within whatever geographic region you're currently occupying... unless you're posting from some stateless territory on this planet of which I'm not aware...?

yeah, actually I am. There is currently no unwanted use of force occurring anywhere around me. The geographic region I am in is about 1500 square feet. I don't own it, but the person who does has granted me permission to use it how I see fit. There will be no use of force occurring here without invitation, and certainly no aggressive use of force (coercion?). So yes, I do have a monopoly of the use of force within this given geographic region. I am enjoying it. I am an entity. That fits your definition that I originally commented on, does it not?

So yeah, something is missing, and I am waiting for you to reply and fill in that blank. Please hurry, I don't like being referred to as "state"!
 
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