Ron Paul & voluntarists

Ron Paul is a "defender of liberty and supporter of the Constitution." Ron Paul's words ... not Conza's.

Intellectual honesty fail.

I am ALSO A DEFENDER OF LIBERTY and a SUPPORTER OF THE CONSTITUTION -> compared to what we have now. Who isn't? :rolleyes:

And, just like Ron Paul... I support SELF-GOVERNMENT COMPARED TO THE CONSTITUTION... self-government/voluntarism/anarcho-capitalism being his end goal. His words. Pretty damn clear. :D

Philosophically Mises, Rothbard, and Paul are closely aligned. Mises understood and Paul understands that the State is actually a good design for property distribution and rights. I don't know where Rothbard stands on that.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Not closely, directly aligned. Ron Paul directly follows the Rothbard caucus' 10 points [The Ron Paul revolution is essentially Rothbardian].

Ron Paul says "the state is a good design for property distribution and rights?" <- Hahaha! :D That is beyond ret#$%^d.

Back up that claim, please oh please provide the sources that back up that statement. Wayyy too funny [due to absurdity]!
 
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Alright, that's it...

Right. That is your target. But I walk this Earth too and I'm going to fight you before you reach your goal.

Of course you are going to fight us. You believe that you've been granted some extra-human authority that allows you to dictate terms to other individuals, so when some of those other individuals dare "step out of line", in order for you to not abandon your philosophy, you MUST fight them.

I've mentioned earlier that anarchists will start a civil war if they try to achieve their goals.

Do us a favor - refer to a post made by an professed anarchist in this forum - any thread - where he advocates civil war. Please? Otherwise, guess what? You're not talking to us, you're talking to the strawman you've constructed in your own head.

ETA: Unless you're saying you'll initiate civil war... I think that's what you're saying, actually. Which goes to my point below. YOU are the violent one.

Here's why. My property pins are located and recorded in deeds held at the county clerk's office at my county building which is under the authority of the State where I live. If you have a better plan offer it up before you eliminate the State.

First, that's been done.

Second, I'm but one human being. There are 6 billion other human beings on this planet right now. If I cannot give or cite you a voluntary solution to this problem, surely someone else on the planet might come up with something. But you're here in this thread denying that possibility exists, so YOU wish to forcefully impose your vision of the solution on the rest of this. THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT. FREE PEOPLE FREELY EXCHANGING IDEAS, AND REJECTING FORCEFULLY IMPOSING THEIR VISION ON OTHERS.

If not, then get the hell off my property, leave me alone, and if you destroy the county building and my property deed I'll fill your butt full of lead. My property is where I raise my food.

Good lord, dude. I'm not on your property. Seriously, this is hilarious. I respect you and your property. It is YOU who has openly and unequivocally stated that YOU will encroach upon the rights of ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU. Read your own language. YOU ARE THE VIOLENT ONE. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS THREAD WHO HAS THREATENED TO SHOOT ANYONE, for cryin' out loud.

I will defend my rights.

No, you destroy your rights by advocating the suppression of the rights of others. You do not defend rights. You may advocate "less" violation of rights than, say, a socialist or a fascist, but at the end of the day, you still adovcate the violation of individual rights.

 
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Intellectual honesty fail.
I'm calling you out Conza. I suspect you are not a philosopher or student of liberty. You post like a privileged elite doing his damnest to divide the liberty movement and rile up young people who are working hard to learn truths. Bumping old divisive threads from the past is further evidence that you are here maliciously to stir shit up.

Flat out lie right here ... a distortion of the truth,
Ron Paul says "the state is a good design for property distribution and rights?"
Here is the truth,
Mises understood and Paul understands that the State is actually a good design for property distribution and rights.

I made the claim that Ron Paul understands it. Nowhere did I make the claim that Ron Paul said it. It is the same difference as putting incorrect labels on people to advance an agenda. Conza is doing that and it is not honest.

Back up that claim, please oh please provide the sources that back up that statement.

State, County, Township, Sections, Acreage, Lots & Blocks to allow individual property ownership with property boundaries surveyed and recorded as deeds held in public records at the county clerk & recorder's offices under the authority of the State.
 
Good lord, dude. I'm not on your property. Seriously, this is hilarious. I respect you and your property. It is YOU who has openly and unequivocally stated that YOU will encroach upon the rights of ANYONE WHO DOES NOT AGREE WITH YOU. Read your own language. YOU ARE THE VIOLENT ONE. YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON IN THIS THREAD WHO HAS THREATENED TO SHOOT ANYONE, for cryin' out loud.
In defense of my right to my property. That's all I said. There is no need to twist my words. No aggression.
 
I'm calling you out Conza. I suspect you are not a philosopher or student of liberty. You post like a privileged elite doing his damnest to divide the liberty movement and rile up young people who are working hard to learn truths. Bumping old divisive threads from the past is further evidence that you are here maliciously to stir shit up.

Hahaha :D! I've done more for this movement than you have, or ever will.

Fantasy land bro, you're living in a dream world.

I made the claim that Ron Paul understands it. Nowhere did I make the claim that Ron Paul said it. It is the same difference as putting incorrect labels on people to advance an agenda. Conza is doing that and it is not honest.

Hahah! Ok, so you admit that he has never said it, or written it. Then how in the f$)%#n hell can you make the claim he "understands" that.

The claim is absolutely baseless - which you seem to openly admit... amazing! You're literally making stuff up and claiming it as truth.

State, County, Township, Sections, Acreage, Lots & Blocks to allow individual property ownership with property boundaries surveyed and recorded as deeds held in public records at the county clerk & recorder's offices under the authority of the State.

lol :confused: ... was that meant to be an argument? For what exactly? Try write a sentence that has at least some resemblance of coherency.

Yo Trav, don't dodge my questions.

Yo Travlyr, what books/sources have you read on private law/ natural order/ voluntarism / self government / anarcho-capitalism?
 
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In defense of my right to my property. That's all I said. There is no need to twist my words. No aggression.

I'm not twisting your words. You insist that an involuntary agency must exist, and those who oppose that aggression should be subject to physical force.
 
Ok, so you admit that he has never said it, or written it. Then how in the f$)%#n hell can you make the claim he "understands" that.
I don't know if he ever said it. Good point though. I should have said that he SEEMS to understand it because of his actions.

The claim is absolutely baseless - which you seem to openly admit... amazing! You're literally making stuff up and claiming it as truth.

Ron Paul is running for President of the United States of America. The highest office in the history of the world of Nation/State. Pretty much makes him a statist.
 
I'm not twisting your words. You insist that an involuntary agency must exist, and those who oppose that aggression should be subject to physical force.

Exactly. That is why I keep saying that Voluntaryism can only work within the bounds of the State here on Earth because we live in an imperfect world. It is extreme and I want nothing to do with it. Personally, I will let you take it as far as you wish as long as it does not aggress against me.

Hypothetically speaking ... If you were to walk up to my table and take my food off my plate the result would not be pretty, I will defend my right to my property.
 
Yo Trav, about Ron Paul and that "property rights distribution" claim...



38 seconds ;)
 
Exactly. That is why I keep saying that Voluntaryism can only work within the bounds of the State here on Earth because we live in an imperfect world. It is extreme and I want nothing to do with it. Personally, I will let you take it as far as you wish as long as it does not aggress against me.

I can't tell if it's that I'm doing a bad job of explaining it, or if you're being willful.

Hypothetically speaking ... If you were to walk up to my table and take my food off my plate the result would not be pretty, I will defend my right to my property.

What in the world... This is not an appropriate hypothetical. A correct analogy would have us all sitting at a table, and I suggest that we should be able to get plates from whatever plate manufacturer we want, then you flip out and threaten to shoot me if I try it.

I'm not touching your food, dude. You're denying me the right to define my plate in any way other than through the involuntary, fiat plate manufacturer you prefer.
 
I don't know if he ever said it. Good point though. I should have said that he SEEMS to understand it because of his actions.

Hahaha :D!

Ok, so you have absolutely no proof. Nor even anything close to resembling an argument that would support your claim.

Ron Paul is running for President of the United States of America. The highest office in the history of the world of Nation/State. Pretty much makes him a statist.

Trav, do you not read? Re-paste from this thread...

Conza88 said:
He's not campaigning to run the government. Mate, if anyone is twisting reality - it is you. Seriously, check what you just said, think that over, long and hard. Ron Paul... campaigning, because he wants to run the government? Seriously?!

"Of course I'm cheering on Ron Paul because he is exposing the nature of the whole system. He is not running for president. He is running against the presidency as it is currently understood." - Lew Rockwell

All he friggin does is run against the government. "I don't want to run your lives", does that ring a bell? But honestly, it's about the message.

But lets hear from someone who would be in the know. A close family member. According to Ron Paul's niece -> "He's running just to make a point". :D


2min+

Now, I understand that it wouldn't be wise to go around making the point - his main goal in running isn't to 'win' office, it's about the message. But it's the truth, something to be privately acknowledged.


pwn3d. Yo Trav, for the third time...

Yo Travlyr, what books/sources have you read on private law/ natural order/ voluntarism / self government / anarcho-capitalism?
 
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I'm not touching your food, dude. You're denying me the right to define my plate in any way other than through the involuntary, fiat plate manufacturer you prefer.
I don't care where you get your plate or even if you don't get one.

I will defend my rights. I have property within the State where I live. If you are not interested in removing my property deed from my clerk & recorder's office, then I have no more to discuss with you. It is not a philosophical argument. It is real life.
 
Trav, do you not read? Re-paste from this thread...
Let Ron Paul promote himself. Let Ron Paul label himself. Quit putting words into the mouths of others. Quit dividing the liberty movement. Be honest. Ron Paul is honest.
 
So a little bit of slavery is good?
What it means to be an anarcho-capitalist - Stephan Kinsella.

You clearly need to learn logic. My approach is working thanks. Just not on you; but that's ok - you're the soundboard, you've been 'chosen' because of your intellectual dishonesty and close mindedness.

Ad hominems' you minarchists are full of them. If you want to have a discussion about strategy, I said in the OP - we can have that discussion......... BUT once again, you've got nothing but bs strawmen. You don't ASK what my position is, YOU ASSUME. And assumptions are the mother of all...

No, are you calling Ron Paul a slave as well? Good for you. It's nice to hear that folks in Australia are throwing down their chains and are on the cusps of peacefully removing "the state". Oh, I am the sound board now huh? You chose me did you? Intellectual dishonesty? Close mindedness? Is that what people are who disagree with you?

No I told you why I entered this thread. I am just about finished accomplishing what I set out to do. There is a stark contrast between your approach and that of the man you decided to hitch your wagon to and promote your ideals and your extreme views. You don't like to be slapped with the label extremist, so I won't call you that, but I will use that word to describe what you are promoting.

If you don't think your ideas are extremist, then you'll have to find a way to describe "the state" in a way that either makes "it" not existent in the present tense (since "the state" is the opposite of voluntarism or anarchy). Otherwise, there are no examples of freedom ever occurring, admit that freedom is an unattainable goal in the sense of totality while the path to freedom is more desirable than the path away from it.

If we cannot have true freedom as long as "the state" exists, then we will have to accept that true freedom will always involve creating an anti-state to defend it. This implies violence in to perpetuity. I don't know too many people who would choose to risk theirs lives for that extra 10% of freedom that you are promising. I do know people who WILL sacrifice their lives to put themselves on the path and to defend that path.

THe only way I can see having 100% freedom as in without a state, would be for a group of people to establish and anti-state for the sole purpose of busting up any monopoly on violence that may try to take root, and of course be successful at it. How this would not in and of itself become "the state" is something that I am still struggling to wrap my mind around. How ever, listening to you tell it, it doesn't matter anyways, because we'd first have to destroy the current "state" before we can have any sort of freedom in which to protect.

Epic failure. Methodological individualism 101. Different individuals bro, do you not understand that?

So you disagree with the definition of the state that I was commenting on? You agree that there is something missing too? Interesting. Am I seeing signs of a Conza that has learned how to find common ground rather than claiming he can fly?

Don't worry newbitech, I know that even though it's been roughly 4-5 years - you still haven't read anything substantial on the subject.

Out of curiosity, what books and writings do you think the people who won their independence from the British Empire used to benefit their victory? Weren't you claiming that Ireland was an example of this voluntarism? I wonder what books and resource they had at their disposal to figure this stuff out. You have no idea what I have and haven't read. I don't want this to come across as sounding like I am attacking you, but do you have any common sense at all, or does your opinion only come from what others have told you it should be? Does it really take years and years of study to figure out what your natural birth rights should be? I think some people have an easier time of breaking their indoctrination than others.

Know what it took for me to "wake up" bro? Took me realizing that I was having more fun watching the wars on TV than playing my video games. I realized there was something sick and wrong with my thinking. This happened way before I met Ron Paul. It took me another 3-4 years AFTER I "woke up" to discover Ron Paul. I wasn't lead here by scholars or philosophers. I was lead here by common friggin sense.

So yeah, I have read up to what my appetite for reading can stomach. You want to keep digging, go ahead, but bro, the "X" is over here.
 
you live in a dream world conza, on another continent i might add. What do you really care about the future of america? My guess is you could give a rat's ass about americans and their freedom. The only thing you seem to be interested in is coming here and recruiting people to your philosophy, which basically does not include getting ron paul elected. I've already seen, in the comments section of internet articles, where people are labeling ron paul an anarchist and claiming they will not vote for him because of it. You have no right or business interfering with our elections or labeling ron paul. You are the one experiencing cognitive dissonance if you think threads like this will help ron get elected! You don't seem to get that achieving the kind of society you dream about has to be done in an systematic way, as an incremental process, first by electing a president who wants to legalize freedom! You, and others like you, who don't live in this country either don't care about that, or you are strategically and politically ignorant! Or, you don't think he can win anyway so you're just going to do as much damage to this forum as you can! Whatever the reason is, why don't you just take your recruits and go start your own forum.

Let it be known to any newcomers to this forum, that this op's opinions of ron paul are rejected outright by those of us who believe ron has a chance to win.

Conza, stick to your self righteous philosophizing, and leave ron paul out of it!

quoted
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truth
 
Exactly. That is why I keep saying that Voluntaryism can only work within the bounds of the State here on Earth because we live in an imperfect world. Anarchy is extreme and I want nothing to do with it. Personally, I will let you take it as far as you wish as long as it does not aggress against me.

HOPPE: Mises thought it was necessary to have an institution that suppresses those people who cannot behave appropriately in society, people who are a danger because they steal and murder. He calls this institution government.

But he has a unique idea of how government should work. To check its power, every group and every individual, if possible, must have the right to secede from the territory of the state. He called this the right of self determination, not of nations as the League of Nations said, but of villages, districts, and groups of any size. In Liberalism and Nation, State, and Economy, he elevates secession to a central principle of classical liberalism. If it were possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, he says, it would have to be done. Thus the democratic state becomes, for Mises, a voluntary organization.

Mises is not a self described anarchist. That label was put on him by others after he died.

Know This. I am not an anarchist under anybody's definition. When I die if others label me as an anarchist, then I'll haunt you if I can.
 
for the record, Conza was not talking about "self-government" until our little discussion about Gandhi and self-government. He didn't believe that Dr. Paul could be an advocate of ANY kind of government and that it was easy to see that Dr. Paul was an anarchist capitalist. I backed up my statement by showing him the brand new link to the interview. Now he is equating everything to self-government.

Also for the record, I also pointed out where Rothbard advocated for nationalism in certain situations and that an ideal society would promote nationalism if it gave rise to a society that was not bound by an oppressive state. This national self-determination was and is the link between self-government and the formation of a voluntary non-coercive state. Of course the problem being, how to maintain that state, and that is where anarchist and now apparently voluntarist definitions of the world start breaking down.

Of course, the reason is, there can be no such thing as a non-coercive state according to anarchist and now voluntarist apparently, so I am waiting for the next new word to up to see what they call it. It's definitely NOT self-government though, because self-government can and clearly MUST exist within the current status quo in order for any liberty lover aka slave, to find their freedom.
 
...

Here's just a little reminder of what's in the OP, since there's a lot of side-discussion that has gone off on a lot of tangents since the OP....




ADAM KOKESH: So you've described yourself as a voluntarist. Can you tell us what that means for the big picture, and what your ideal society would be, as a voluntarist?

RON PAUL: Voluntary means no coercion. So if you want to change people's habits or change the world you should do it by setting examples and trying to persuade people to do it. You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. So voluntary use of information and persuading people, I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at.


So, out of this we can come to 2 possible conclusions, as far as I can see...

1. Adam Kokesh outright lied to Ron Pauls face, and Ron Paul not only chooses not to correct him but instead go on to sound rather supportive of the assertion, to the point of saying "I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

2. Ron Paul is a voluntarist.


There is denial and there is acceptance. What state of mind are you in?
 
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