Ron Paul & voluntarists

[ClayTrainor]

quoted
for
truth

It's worth noting that the entire post you quoted is a giant personal attack on conza, and in no way addresses the subject matter of the op or the conversation currently taking place.

 

[Travlyr]

It's worth noting that the entire post you quoted is a giant personal attack on conza, and in no way addresses the subject matter of the op or the conversation currently taking place.

Oh he earned it. Conza is not interested in philosophy. He is here to divide the liberty movement and rile people up. You on the other hand seem sincerely interested in the philosophy along with many others.

 

[newbitech]

...



There is denial and there is acceptance. What state of mind are you in?

If the definition of voluntarism is simply as Ron Paul stated, no coercion, then he is a voluntarist.

If the definition also includes defining government as an entity that can only exist through coercion, then he is not a voluntarist.

Ron Paul is not calling to abolish government. Government can and does exist with out coercion. An example would be self-government, which, if you choose to equate to voluntarism, then a voluntarist cannot call for the abolishment of government. If voluntarim is just another word for ancap or rather straight up anarchism as defined in the peaceful sense (is that possible), then you'll have to find another way to define "the state", and certainly make a clear distinction between "the state" and government.

So I don't have a problem agreeing that Ron Paul believes in no coercion. But if you are going to extend that definition to include other elements of voluntarism, you'd need to close some holes in the definitions. As of right now, I don't think the interview supports either of your conclusions.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Oh he earned it.

Just like I earned the "Cult" and "liar" labels that you constantly threw at me earlier in this thread?

Conza is not interested in philosophy. He is here to divide the liberty movement and rile people up. You on the other hand seem sincerely interested in the philosophy along with many others.

All assertions without facts to back them up. Conza is one of the most ardent Ron Paul supporters and Liberty Activists that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting online. If you ever read the mises.org forums you would know that Conza is constantly defending Ron Paul whenever he is attacked by one of their members.

He's also constantly working on projects, and defending Ron Paul in various circles. For example, he made this video which has well over 200,000 views.



Whens the last time you got Ron Pauls message in front of hundreds of thousands of eyeballs???

 

[newbitech]

Just like I earned the "Cult" and "liar" labels that you constantly threw at me earlier in this thread?

All assertions without facts to back them up. Conza is one of the most ardent Ron Paul supporters and Liberty Activists that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting online. If you ever read the mises.org forums you would know that Conza is constantly defending Ron Paul whenever he is attacked by one of their members.

He's also constantly working on projects, and defending Ron Paul in various circles. For example, he made this video which has well over 200,000 views.



Whens the last time you got Ron Pauls message in front of hundreds of thousands of eyeballs???

The MSM gets Ron Paul in front of millions and the entire viewing world. Good thing they supported Ron Paul in 2008 and now in 2012.

I don't necessarily agree that Conza is a willful provocateur, hell I don't necessarily agree that he is off base with his ideas. I do think his method and approach do not work for this forum as part of the political process, however I think he is posting in the proper sub forum and I appreciate that fact that this political forum does leave room for his opinion, no matter how unsavory his approach. I think his discussion and opinion is valuable in the sense that it IS extreme and it does give others a chance to discover Ron Paul from a different perspective.

I don't see why folks in this sub forum cannot express different views without resorting to questioning the posters support for Ron's campaign, ideas, values, freedom and liberty. It does sort of force me to turn that question around on them, namely Conza. He could find ways to be more agreeable, but he doesn't want to, has no desire to, and as long as he thinks his approach is successful, he won't stop offending me.

 

[Travlyr]

Just like I earned the "Cult" and "liar" labels that you constantly threw at me earlier in this thread?

It is like you don't read. He lied about something I posted to distort the truth. I pointed it out. Mises did not describe himself as an anarchist. He understood it and rejected the label. After he died others painted him with that brush. That is dishonest. Liars are losers in the 21st century.

If anarchy can not be achieved without deceiving people, then it is simply a cult. Honesty and integrity Ron Paul style is required to achieve a movement. That is why liberty is racing forward. Ron Paul ... not Conza. Let Ron Paul promote himself.

All assertions without facts to back them up. Conza is one of the most ardent Ron Paul supporters and Liberty Activists that I have ever had the pleasure of meeting online. If you ever read the mises.org forums you would know that Conza is constantly defending Ron Paul whenever he is attacked by one of their members.

He's also constantly working on projects, and defending Ron Paul in various circles. For example, he made this video which has well over 200,000 views.



Whens the last time you got Ron Pauls message in front of hundreds of thousands of eyeballs???

That is a good video. Nice work Conza. Make sure that everybody knows that Ron Paul does not plan to dismantle the State. We are not philosophers. We are property owners and do not want that disrupted. There is enough trouble in the world as it is. Don't go after our property.

Ron Paul is quite qualified to promote himself. And he is not an anarchist who wants to dismantle the government. Conza paints him wrong on this forum. When was the last time you heard Ron Paul say that he starts his day on Lew Rockwell.com? They screwed his political ambitions by their antics last time. This time we are calling them out. They need to be honest.

On this forum Conza is divisive.

Ron Paul 2012

 

[ClayTrainor]

The MSM gets Ron Paul in front of millions and the entire viewing world. Good thing they supported Ron Paul in 2008 and now in 2012.

That's not a valid point, the MSM attacked Ron Paul more than they spread his message.

Conza's "loyalties" are put into question by Travlyr, and I demonstrated clear empirical evidence that he produces content that is strongly in support of Ron Pauls and the ideas of liberty, and gets it seen by hundreds of thousands.

I don't necessarily agree that Conza is a willful provocateur, hell I don't necessarily agree that he is off base with his ideas. I do think his method and approach do not work for this forum as part of the political process, however I think he is posting in the proper sub forum and I appreciate that fact that this political forum does leave room for his opinion, no matter how unsavory his approach.

Travlyr and Deb K are resorting to ad-hominems far more than anyone else in this thread.

I think his discussion and opinion is valuable in the sense that it IS extreme and it does give others a chance to discover Ron Paul from a different perspective.

Virtually every position Ron Paul takes gets labelled as extreme... Taxation is theft, End the Fed, End the income Tax, etc.

You're saying virtually nothing at all, when you use that word.

 

[ClayTrainor]

On this forum Conza is divisive.

So are you.

 

[Travlyr]

Address the public property deed recorded at the county which gets its authority from the State issue honestly. What's your plan? Not what it could be, but what it is before you dismantle the State.

 

[Travlyr]

So are you.

Only with people who want to do away with my property.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Honesty and integrity Ron Paul style is required to achieve a movement. That is why liberty is racing forward. Ron Paul ... not Conza. Let Ron Paul promote himself.

Ron Paul can also speak for himself. Ron Paul openly admits taxation is theft, unlike you who tells people that you think they should grow up when they make such a claim.

But it is kind of silly to cry about all taxation being theft when most of us have been taxed 50% of everything we've ever earned our entire lives. I just think you guys should grow up.

Go to about 3:30



Spitzer: Is taxation theft in your mind?

Ron Paul: Yes, it is. It has to steal from productive individuals and give to somebody else.

C'mon Ron Paul, Travlyr thinks you should Grow Up!

Ron Paul is quite qualified to promote himself. And he is not an anarchist who wants to dismantle the government.

Ron Paul is a voluntarist who always chooses liberty, who believes that voluntary interaction is ALWAYS the best way to go.

Here's just a little reminder of what's in the OP, since there's a lot of side-discussion that has gone off on a lot of tangents since the OP....

​

ADAM KOKESH: So you've described yourself as a voluntarist. Can you tell us what that means for the big picture, and what your ideal society would be, as a voluntarist?

RON PAUL: Voluntary means no coercion. So if you want to change people's habits or change the world you should do it by setting examples and trying to persuade people to do it. You can use force only when somebody uses force against you. So voluntary use of information and persuading people, I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at.

So, out of this we can come to 2 possible conclusions, as far as I can see...

1. Adam Kokesh outright lied to Ron Pauls face, and Ron Paul not only chooses not to correct him but instead go on to sound rather supportive of the assertion, to the point of saying "I think, is the best way to go; and no matter what kind of problem you're looking at."

2. Ron Paul is a voluntarist.

He always chooses voluntary alternatives, when compared to any form of statism, including the constitution.

MHD: but what do you say to people who advocate for self-government rather than interpreting the constitution.

Ron Paul: Great, fine. I think that’s really what my goal is.

Conza paints him wrong on this forum. When was the last time you heard Ron Paul say that he starts his day on Lew Rockwell.com?

I don't keep track, but I see Ron Paul constantly associating himself with anarchists all the time.

This time we are calling them out. They need to be honest.

I'm sure you tell yourself that's what your doing, but in reality, you're merely being divisive, ignoring questions, making accusations without evidence, and throwing around ad-hominem personal attacks.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Only with people who want to do away with my property.

Your problem is with statist, not voluntaryists.

 

[Travlyr]

Exactly. That is why I keep saying that Voluntaryism can only work within the bounds of the State here on Earth because we live in an imperfect world. Anarchy is extreme and I want nothing to do with it. Personally, I will let you take it as far as you wish as long as it does not aggress against me.

HOPPE: Mises thought it was necessary to have an institution that suppresses those people who cannot behave appropriately in society, people who are a danger because they steal and murder. He calls this institution government.

But he has a unique idea of how government should work. To check its power, every group and every individual, if possible, must have the right to secede from the territory of the state. He called this the right of self determination, not of nations as the League of Nations said, but of villages, districts, and groups of any size. In Liberalism and Nation, State, and Economy, he elevates secession to a central principle of classical liberalism. If it were possible to grant this right of self-determination to every individual person, he says, it would have to be done. Thus the democratic state becomes, for Mises, a voluntary organization.

Mises is not a self described anarchist. That label was put on him by others after he died.

Know This. I am not an anarchist under anybody's definition. When I die if others label me as an anarchist, then I'll haunt you if I can.

No Clay. Whoever wants to dismantle the State either proposes a method of property ownership better than what is designed by the State/County/Township/Sections/Acreage/Lots & Blocks surveyed & publicly recorded to settle disputes or face the fact that property owners will not accept a false idol.

 

[ClayTrainor]

Address the public property deed recorded at the county which gets its authority from the State issue honestly. What's your plan? Not what it could be, but what it is before you dismantle the State.

People, including myself, have been over this topic literally dozens of times with you, and you always act like it's never been addressed. Why should I bother again?

There is a good chance the freed market model would be similar to what you like. The market is better at finding the answers to these questions than any one person could. That is the point of advocating a free market.

It is a tough sell to most people just as free market anything is (healthcare etc). This is because most people are economically ignorant.

You should know what I mean if you have ever tried to tell a socialist that healthcare should be privatized. How much will this cost? Who will regulate that? What about greedy hospitals? How will the poor afford it? What about monopolies only serving the uber rich? etc etc.

If the State were to be abolished through peaceful means (education and persuasion), then most currently owned property would probably be respected.

It is important to understand that customs and traditions of the people who compose the majority of a certain geographical area will determine how things are governed, with or without a State. That isn't to say that there are no theories on land ownership though (there is a lot of literature on in, just in case you didn't know). Imo it would be as simple as demand for property claim verification leading to a market for it. Entrepreneurs would satisfy this demand.

If the State were abolished because we first had a successful education campaign which resulted in a true minarchy then to pure statelessness, then this would mean enough people were educated to understand the free market on at least some level and respect property rights, so I don't think there would be much trouble with land rights. If we ever get to a minarchy, people won't have a problem with the answer "let the market find out".

 

[ClayTrainor]

Mises is not a self described anarchist. That label was put on him by others after he died.

Know This. I am not an anarchist under anybody's definition. When I die if others label me as an anarchist, then I'll haunt you if I can.

This has nothing to do with anything I said, at all. I'm not talking about mises. sheesh.

 

[Travlyr]

In other words Clay Trainor

We are not buying what you are selling. Ron Paul is not selling what you are selling. Ron Paul is "defender of liberty and supporter of the Constitution."

Property owners do not need fear a President Ron Paul because most of his supporters believe in property rights and will defend them.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

BOO! BOO property owners! BOO!

I'm comin' to getcha! Booga Booga!!!

 

[Travlyr]

BOO! BOO property owners! BOO!

I'm comin' to getcha! Booga Booga!!!

It is too bad that you don't respect property rights with a plan of action. It would make it easier to sell your garbage.

 

[A Son of Liberty]

It is too bad that you don't respect property rights with a plan of action. It would make it easier to sell your garbage.

Too funny. It's too bad YOU don't respect property and an individual's right to freely associate.

The case has been made so effectively and in such detail in this thread that it seems you're just being oppositional. I can understand and even appreciate a utilitarian argument from your perspective, but from a logically consistent philosophical point of view, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

[V for Voluntary]

When was the last time you heard Ron Paul say that he starts his day on Lew Rockwell.com?

I didn't hear Ron Paul say that, but...

"Visit LewRockwell.com, an outstanding and crucially important Web site I visit every day."
-- Ron Paul, "THE REVOLUTION, A MANIFESTO" (page #158)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mu...important Web site I visit every day"&f=false