Ron Paul, Tom Woods, Judge Nap at the Mises Summit

[sailingaway]

This subject is never going to go away. This forum should get with the times and embrace the dialogue and debate. Especially since the Ron Paul campaign is over, and Ron himself says the Mises Institute and ideas are more important than political action. Like it or not, along with the Mises Institute comes the promotion of a peaceful and productive society without taxation. It just looks so silly to see the Ron Paul forum scared of a message that Ron himself has no problem associating with. You don't all have to agree with the message, but censoring ideas that Ron Paul promotes is odd for a forum named after him.

If the only point of this forum is for organizing political action, rename it to something more appropriate. Naming it after a man who promotes ideas as much more important than political action doesn't make sense if discussing ideas (especially ones he supports) is prohibited.

the philosophy subforum is specifically for that, but I want the podcasts here where people can see them. I haven't been tracking your conversation, to be honest.

 

[gte811i]

The Mises Institute... not the Rothbard Institute.


The private ownership of the means of production... not the private ownership of everything. The state has a purpose. Mises describes it thusly,



Give the man some credit. He is the man the LVMI is named after... after all.

I will chime in here. LvMI does an absolutely fantastic job. I became libertarian through reading their resources (all the free online pdfs). And while the Mises Institute is named after LvM, it is dedicated to the principles of liberty, the advancement of liberty, and the research about liberty. While LvM is awesome, libertarian thought isn't static it advances as other disciplines of LvM take what they learned and expound on it.

It's not named the Rothbard Institute b/c Rothbard was one of the founders! Rothbard was a disciple of Mises. The libertarian triumvirate of Ron Paul, Lew Rockwell and Rothbard basically formed the LvMI. Somewhere there is a very good article on the internal political squabbles that occurred with the Cato Institute, Rockwell and Rothbard. Cato in many ways sold it's soul for access, not all of it's soul just some of it.

 

[sailingaway]

Cato in many ways sold it's soul for access, not all of it's soul just some of it.

...so...... how does a split soul work out in the afterlife? Kind of a timeshare arrangement?

 

[gte811i]

Locke answered the first question quite succinctly.


Taxes to pay for a Sheriff's department, an elected District Attorney, County & State Judges, County Clerk & Recorder, Road Commissioner, Park Commissioner, County Commissioners, State Senator, State Representative, Federal Senator, Federal Representative, President, and Judges. Minimal taxation for a Minimal State ... Minimal Governance.

Great in thought, but unfortunately when has government not grown from these "minimal" services to other things? While this is "minimal" for one, it may not be "minimal" for another. Look at health care, many people believe health care is a "minimal" service.

I personally can't quite get to the anarco-cap thought from here, I can see it somewhat philosophically, but not in practice. So I advocate instead of a continually growing government, a continually shrinking government with less and less responsibility. Continually shrinking and worry about what government "should" do later.

 

[Travlyr]

Great in thought, but unfortunately when has government not grown from these "minimal" services to other things? While this is "minimal" for one, it may not be "minimal" for another. Look at health care, many people believe health care is a "minimal" service.

I personally can't quite get to the anarco-cap thought from here, I can see it somewhat philosophically, but not in practice. So I advocate instead of a continually growing government, a continually shrinking government with less and less responsibility. Continually shrinking and worry about what government "should" do later.

The proper role of government is simple. The role of government is the protection of property, liberty, and peace. Government has no further role. If it fails in that role, then it fails as a legitimate government. A legitimate government consists of static standards, law, and justice. Standards are well defined and static, law is based on the NAP, and justice is based on "an impartial judge to determine the severity of the crime, and to set a punishment proportionate to the crime."

John Locke
The aim of such a legitimate government is to preserve, so far as possible, the rights to life, liberty, health and property of its citizens, and to prosecute and punish those of its citizens who violate the rights of others and to pursue the public good even where this may conflict with the rights of individuals. In doing this it provides something unavailable in the state of nature, an impartial judge to determine the severity of the crime, and to set a punishment proportionate to the crime. This is one of the main reasons why civil society is an improvement on the state of nature.

 

[Wesker1982]

The Mises Institute... not the Rothbard Institute.

They could call it the Travlyr Institute and it would not change the fact that they are dedicated to spreading the ideas of Voluntaryism.

 

[Travlyr]

They could call it the Travlyr Institute and it would not change the fact that they are dedicated to spreading the ideas of Voluntaryism.

Mises > Rothbard

I am in favor of Voluntaryism. Constitutionalism = Voluntaryism.

Ludwig von Mises:

"It is impossible to grasp the meaning of the idea of sound money if one does not realize that it was devised as an instrument for the protection of civil liberties against despotic inroads on the part of governments. Ideologically it belongs in the same class with political constitutions and bills of right." - Ludwig von Mises

BTW: Sound Money "Rings" when dropped on a hard surface. That is how people KNOW it is "sound" money.

 

[heavenlyboy34]

Mises > Rothbard

Mises called Murray "The Great System Builder". Your hatred for his work is totally irrational.

I am in favor of Voluntaryism. Constitutionalism = Voluntaryism.

There is nothing "voluntary" about the Constitution. That is why the system is immoral. (well, one of the reasons)

Ludwig von Mises:

BTW: Sound Money "Rings" when dropped on a hard surface. That is how people KNOW it is "sound" money.

I like Mises too.
"

If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.​

"

"Most of the tyrants, despots, and dictators are sincerely convinced that their rule is beneficial for the people, that theirs is government for the people."​

"

The governments alone are responsible for the spread of the superstitious awe with which the common man looks upon every bit of paper upon which the treasury or agencies which it controls have printed the magical words legal tender.​

"
"

Most cartels and trusts would never have been set up had not the governments created the necessary conditions by protectionist measures.​

"
"

All this passionate praise of the supereminence of government action is but a poor disguise for the individual interventionists self-deification. The great god State is a great god only because it is expected to do exclusively what the individual advocate of interventionism wants to see achieved.​

"
"

The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.​

"

"The worship of the state is the worship of force. There is no more dangerous menace to civilization than a government of incompetent, corrupt, or vile men. The worst evils which mankind ever had to endure were inflicted by bad governments."
"​

The state is a human institution, not a superhuman being. He who says state means coercion and compulsion. He who says: There should be a law concerning this matter, means: The armed men of the government should force people to do what they do not want to do, or not to do what they like. He who says: This law should be better enforced, means: the police should force people to obey this law. He who says: The state is God, deifies arms and prisons.​

"
"Liberalism knows no conquests, no annexations; just as it is indifferent towards the state itself, so the problem of the size of the state is unimportant to it. It forces no one against his will into the structure of the state. Whoever wants to emigrate is not held back. When a part of the people of the state wants to drop out of the union, liberalism does not hinder it from doing so. Colonies that want to become independent need only do so. The nation as an organic entity can be neither increased nor reduced by changes in states; the world as a whole can neither win nor lose from them. (Nation, State, and Economy, pp. 39–40)

The size of a states territory therefore does not matter. (Nation, State, and Economy, p. 82)
​

"The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars." (Liberalism, p. 109)​

 

[NewRightLibertarian]

I am in favor of Voluntaryism. Constitutionalism = Voluntaryism.

What good is a Constitution when the government will just toss it aside and not abide by it?

 

[heavenlyboy34]

What good is a Constitution when the government will just toss it aside and not abide by it?

It's all your fault for not holding them accountable!!11!!!

 

[Carson]

What good is a Constitution when the government will just toss it aside and not abide by it?

It's all your fault for not holding them accountable!!11!!!

We have no one to blame but ourselves sgt150.

 

[noneedtoaggress]

I like Mises too.
"

If one rejects laissez faire on account of mans fallibility and moral weakness, one must for the same reason also reject every kind of government action.​

"

"Most of the tyrants, despots, and dictators are sincerely convinced that their rule is beneficial for the people, that theirs is government for the people."​

"

The governments alone are responsible for the spread of the superstitious awe with which the common man looks upon every bit of paper upon which the treasury or agencies which it controls have printed the magical words legal tender.​

"
"

Most cartels and trusts would never have been set up had not the governments created the necessary conditions by protectionist measures.​

"
"

All this passionate praise of the supereminence of government action is but a poor disguise for the individual interventionists self-deification. The great god State is a great god only because it is expected to do exclusively what the individual advocate of interventionism wants to see achieved.​

"
"

The essential feature of government is the enforcement of its decrees by beating, killing, and imprisoning. Those who are asking for more government interference are asking ultimately for more compulsion and less freedom.​

"

"The worship of the state is the worship of force. There is no more dangerous menace to civilization than a government of incompetent, corrupt, or vile men. The worst evils which mankind ever had to endure were inflicted by bad governments."
"​

The state is a human institution, not a superhuman being. He who says state means coercion and compulsion. He who says: There should be a law concerning this matter, means: The armed men of the government should force people to do what they do not want to do, or not to do what they like. He who says: This law should be better enforced, means: the police should force people to obey this law. He who says: The state is God, deifies arms and prisons.​

"
"Liberalism knows no conquests, no annexations; just as it is indifferent towards the state itself, so the problem of the size of the state is unimportant to it. It forces no one against his will into the structure of the state. Whoever wants to emigrate is not held back. When a part of the people of the state wants to drop out of the union, liberalism does not hinder it from doing so. Colonies that want to become independent need only do so. The nation as an organic entity can be neither increased nor reduced by changes in states; the world as a whole can neither win nor lose from them. (Nation, State, and Economy, pp. 39–40)

The size of a states territory therefore does not matter. (Nation, State, and Economy, p. 82)
​

"The right of self-determination in regard to the question of membership in a state thus means: whenever the inhabitants of a particular territory, whether it be a single village, a whole district, or a series of adjacent districts, make it known, by a freely conducted plebiscite, that they no longer wish to remain united to the state to which they belong at the time, but wish either to form an independent state or to attach themselves to some other state, their wishes are to be respected and complied with. This is the only feasible and effective way of preventing revolutions and civil and international wars." (Liberalism, p. 109)​

Deserves a repost on the new page.

 

[Travlyr]

What good is a Constitution when the government will just toss it aside and not abide by it?

Just like the Magna Carta, the Constitution was written for the people. Illegitimate governments do not need a Constitution and would not obey it if they had one. The choice of no government is not available here on Earth. The choices are: Legitimate government (rule by law) or Illegitimate government (rule by weapon). If the people do not understand how to self-govern and force the rulers to rule by due process of law, then the rulers will claim the right to counterfeit money so that they have unlimited money and power, and they will buy a military industrial complex, a police force, and plenty of weapons and they will rule by weapon and exempt themselves from the law. Your choice.

 

[Travlyr]

Mises called Murray "The Great System Builder". Your hatred for his work is totally irrational.


There is nothing "voluntary" about the Constitution. That is why the system is immoral. (well, one of the reasons)

Your reading skills are poor. I do not have any hatred for Rothbard. I claim that the LvMI institute was named after Ludwig von Mises not Rothbard. That does not mean that I hate Rothbard. As a matter of fact, Rothbard influenced my understanding of liberty, peace, and prosperity quite heavily. Just because I don't buy into everything he wrote does not mean that I do not admire him.

I admire Mises more because he understood classical liberalism and rejected anarchy. As a homeowner, anarchy has nothing to offer me. Classical liberalism has plenty to offer. The best it has to offer is separation of the state from the means of production. The state has no business being in business. The role of the state is to distribute land and resources to individuals on a colorblind basis, and protect the individual's right to property, liberty, and peace with standards, law, and a justice system.

 

[gte811i]

Your reading skills are poor. I do not have any hatred for Rothbard. I claim that the LvMI institute was named after Ludwig von Mises not Rothbard. That does not mean that I hate Rothbard. As a matter of fact, Rothbard influenced my understanding of liberty, peace, and prosperity quite heavily. Just because I don't buy into everything he wrote does not mean that I do not admire him.

I admire Mises more because he understood classical liberalism and rejected anarchy. As a homeowner, anarchy has nothing to offer me. Classical liberalism has plenty to offer. The best it has to offer is separation of the state from the means of production. The state has no business being in business. The role of the state is to distribute land and resources to individuals on a colorblind basis, and protect the individual's right to property, liberty, and peace with standards, law, and a justice system.

As a homeowner, the power and extortion by the state offer nothing for me. I am extorted every year to pay property taxes. What happens if I don't pay my property taxes? Oh yeah, that's right the county takes my home. Guess that means I'm not truly a homeowner, I pay rent to the government for the privilege of claiming that I "own" my home.

 

[Travlyr]

As a homeowner, the power and extortion by the state offer nothing for me. I am extorted every year to pay property taxes. What happens if I don't pay my property taxes? Oh yeah, that's right the county takes my home. Guess that means I'm not truly a homeowner, I pay rent to the government for the privilege of claiming that I "own" my home.

Then you should consider involving yourself in your own governance and put a stop to that extortion because if you don't force them to obey the rule of law, then they might just claim the right to put you on a kill list and take away all your rights.

"Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you." - Pericles, 430 B.C.

 

[gte811i]

I subscribe along Judge Napolitano's line of thinking. Just as a state has the right to secede, so should counties and individuals. Some people would like the protection of the state, that's fine and well. But it is wrong to force everyone to accept it at the point of violence.

Counties would have to pay a lot more attention to homeowners if they could just say, hey this year you have done an absolute horrible job managing services, I refuse to pay your property taxes. You might say, ah well that's what voting is for. Well a lot of good voting does for you when more than 50% of the people voting are either non-property owners or individuals who mooch of everyone else. You say, well you can move, oh great I have the choice of moving from place A which exerts [ ] this much government control to a place B which exerts [ ] this much government control. I still have no choice but to be a part of the system, if at any point I wish to not pay property taxes, my property is taken from me and possibly my liberty as well.

 

[gte811i]

Then you should consider involving yourself in your own governance and put a stop to that extortion because if you don't force them to obey the rule of law, then they might just claim the right to put you on a kill list and take away all your rights.

See below (or see above), without the power to secede from the system, it will always devolve into extortion. As soon as 51% of those voting believe that that the remaining 49% have something that the 51% wants, it turns into extortion. Without the power of the 49% to secede from the law of the 51% and protect their rights by defense, it will always devolve into less and less freedom. Especially if a small 10% minority who want power and legalized plunder convince 51% to plunder the 49%.

 

[Travlyr]

I subscribe along Judge Napolitano's line of thinking. Just as a state has the right to secede, so should counties and individuals. Some people would like the protection of the state, that's fine and well. But it is wrong to force everyone to accept it at the point of violence.

Counties would have to pay a lot more attention to homeowners if they could just say, hey this year you have done an absolute horrible job managing services, I refuse to pay your property taxes. You might say, ah well that's what voting is for. Well a lot of good voting does for you when more than 50% of the people voting are either non-property owners or individuals who mooch of everyone else. You say, well you can move, oh great I have the choice of moving from place A which exerts [ ] this much government control to a place B which exerts [ ] this much government control. I still have no choice but to be a part of the system, if at any point I wish to not pay property taxes, my property is taken from me and possibly my liberty as well.

The protection of the state is the governing documents of standards and law. A pound is a pound the world around. If someone sells you a pound of rice, then, since the pound is a static standard, when you get home and weigh your pound of rice, it will equal 16 ounces. The state provides the protection of law as well. If someone breaks into your home, then by law, you can force them to leave and the law will back you up. That is the protection offered by the state. The state does not offer police protection. That is not what police are for.

 

[Travlyr]

See below (or see above), without the power to secede from the system, it will always devolve into extortion. As soon as 51% of those voting believe that that the remaining 49% have something that the 51% wants, it turns into extortion. Without the power of the 49% to secede from the law of the 51% and protect their rights by defense, it will always devolve into less and less freedom. Especially if a small 10% minority who want power and legalized plunder convince 51% to plunder the 49%.

The states are required to be republics not democracies.