Ron Paul supporter attacked and then charged with murder!!

[Kalifornia]

Plenty of people die from being punched once and hitting their head on the ground.

My best friend in college killed somone in self defense in just this manner. Of course it didnt help that the ambulance took 4 hours to get there.

 

[Kalifornia]

I agree with that. Speaking from a female perspective, a penis can be a weapon. And damn straight someone who uses it as such deserves a bullet.

I know that's going off on a tangent a bit but not really...if someone is bigger and stronger than you then a gun may be needed.

Even if they *arent* bigger or stronger than you, you should probably draw to keep them from drawing it for you. If you are carrying, they can take your gun. If you arent carrying, you dont know what kind of weapon they have. Many people have been stabbed to death in a fight you otherwise would think is just wrestling around.

 

[Kalifornia]

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of the value of life. You actually said that if someone puts a hand on me I'll kill them. I'm afraid this is the kind of attitude the guy in the story had and if he had predetermined that he would kill anyone that bothered him he should be charged with murder.

I hope for his sake and his families this was a case of self-defense.

Note, he said 'with the intent to do harm'. I think a society where any assault could be met with deadly force would be a much more polite society.

Although in most states the standard for deadly force is if a reasonable person would be in fear of their life or grievous injury. This is fair, and represents a respect for life that a dumbass attacker doesnt even have for himself.

 

[Kalifornia]

How do you shoot someone in the forehead in self-defense?

I hope to god the national media doesn't run with this....

they reach in through your car window and try to pull you out rhough it?

 

[RonPaulFever]

they reach in through your car window and try to pull you out rhough it?

So instead of aiming for the arm, shoulder or chest......you point blank the guy in the face?

Doesn't add up.

 

[hopeforamerica]

So instead of aiming for the arm, shoulder or chest......you point blank the guy in the face?

Doesn't add up.

There was a struggle. Hard to aim? We don't know all the facts, but bottom line is, this guy deserves a fair trail.

 

[Ninja Homer]

I'm sorry you have such a low opinion of the value of life. You actually said that if someone puts a hand on me I'll kill them. I'm afraid this is the kind of attitude the guy in the story had and if he had predetermined that he would kill anyone that bothered him he should be charged with murder.

I hope for his sake and his families this was a case of self-defense.

Seriously, think about this for a minute. This is real life, not the movies. I'm a pro-linebacker sized guy. If I landed a solid punch to your head or your neck, I don't care how big you are, there's a chance you could die. If you didn't die from that one punch, there's a very good chance you'd be knocked out, not able to breathe, or incapacitated in some other way.

There you are, hardly able to think, let alone grab your gun, with your fiancee in the seat next to you. You should have pulled out your gun before I punched you.

A gun is the great equalizer. Once you pull out a gun, if the other person is in the right state of mind, they'll back off, and that's the end of the conflict.

Obviously, we don't have all the facts yet, so this is just a complete guess at one possible scenario. They are arguing, and the drunk guy gets out of his vehicle and starts to approach the other guy's truck. The guy in the truck pulls out his gun. The drunk guy doesn't stop, and tries to open the door of the truck and pull the guy with the gun out. The guy with the gun shoots the drunk guy.

If that's what happened, I'd definitely call it self-defense.

A blood alcohol level of .19 is huge. I have a breathalyzer, and I've tested it thoroughly. At .19, I wouldn't recommend trying to climb a flight of stairs, let alone driving. His eyesight may have been so blurry that he didn't see the gun, or he just wasn't in the right state of mind to have the sense to leave the guy with the gun alone.

In my state (MN) whoever served him that much alcohol and let him drive would probably be found at fault and get a huge fine for something like this (not that I agree with that law).

We won't know what happened until the facts are out, but it kind of already looks like they are trying to railroad him.

 

[benny215]

I'm 100% supporter of the second amendment. With that said, if you are actually stupid enough to carry a gun you better damn well not use it unless someone else pulls a gun on you.

If someone is threating to kick your ass this does not give you the right to use deadly force. We don't know the facts of this case but it appears like this guy is the reason the gun control people have an argument that people listen to.

once a guy puts his hands on you, there's no way to tell what he's capable of and where he will stop. when you attack someone else you lose all sympathy from me for what happens to you.

maybe he should have thought about the consequences before he got out of his car and assaulted the other guy.

 

[hopeforamerica]

For anyone that wants to help this guy defend himself in court with a good attorney:

http://johnstuartselfdefensefund.chipin.com/john-stuart-self-defense-fund

 

[Ninja Homer]

I don't know what happened here, as no one here does, so I can't say specifically...however, what people always leave out is that people have a right to REASONABLE self defense. Just becuase someone attacks you, or hits you or whatever does NOT give you free reign to kill them. The defense must match the offense. So if someone is punching you, you can hit him back.

You have the right to protect yourself from further harm. That is all.

OK, a very angry, 6' 6", 300 lb ninja, who may or may not have a gun, knife, crowbar, or sword behind his back, is about 10' away coming towards you and wants nothing more than to make your face look like a pile of bloody cream-of-wheat. You are in your car with the window down, fiancee sitting next to you, pretty much defenseless to this over-sized, over-skilled ninja except you have a gun in the glove compartment.

Do you pull out your gun?

If not, game over, you lose.

If you do pull out your gun, and the giant ninja keeps coming at you anyway, do you shoot?

If not, game over, you lose.

 

[frdmrdr]

Speaking from a female perspective, a penis can be a weapon. And damn straight someone who uses it as such deserves a bullet.

Use a penis, go to jail.

Is there a concealed penis law in Arizona?

 

[BarryDonegan]

I'm 100% supporter of the second amendment. With that said, if you are actually stupid enough to carry a gun you better damn well not use it unless someone else pulls a gun on you.

If someone is threating to kick your ass this does not give you the right to use deadly force. We don't know the facts of this case but it appears like this guy is the reason the gun control people have an argument that people listen to.

This is not necessarily true. it depends on what level of threatening is going on and who is saying it.

If someone the size of jesse ventura is threatening a 90 pound woman with death by beating, it would be quite reasonable for her to apply deadly force.

 

[pinkmandy]

Use a penis, go to jail.

Is there a concealed penis law in Arizona?

Are you saying that a woman being threatened w/rape should not use a gun to defend herself? She should just wait until the assault is over (and hope worse than rape doesn't happen) and call the police so the rapist can go to jail? Seriously, is that what you are advocating?

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

 

[frdmrdr]

Are you saying that a woman being threatened w/rape should not use a gun to defend herself? She should just wait until the assault is over (and hope worse than rape doesn't happen) and call the police so the rapist can go to jail? Seriously, is that what you are advocating?

Oh, and welcome to the forums.

Thanks. I was just joking.

But it seems to me that if you feel threatened and pull a gun, that should serve as a warning to the person that you want to be left alone.

If the person continues toward you, I would think that deadly force is justified, because the person might be trying to grab your weapon and use it against you.

 

[constituent]

When someone puts their arms on another with the intent to harm they shouldn't expect to live through the altercation. Any action taken to resolve the situation is justifiable.

+1

 

[pinkmandy]

Thanks. I was just joking.

But it seems to me that if you feel threatened and pull a gun, that should serve as a warning to the person that you want to be left alone.

If the person continues toward you, I would think that deadly force is justified, because the person might be trying to grab your weapon and use it against you.

Okay. That I agree with. Sometimes jokes and sarcasm can be missed when reading typed words.

 

[constituent]

And what if they posess far superior strength, are un-hinged or are simply more capabable of harming you than you are of fending against them?

that excuse only works if you're a cop.

 

[Paulitical Correctness]

You can really tell by the responses who has and who hasn't encountered trouble with the laws and their faulty enforcers.

The law is against you whether or not you're innocent. They just want to bust folks, end of story.

Problem with it these days is that those involved assume they are the law, rather than being instruments of carrying it out.

As far as questioning his decision to run? I don't blame him.

 

[Oyate]

The court will try to determine if a "reasonable person" would have felt their life threatened in this circumstance. The burden of proof still rests with prosecution.

I've read a degree of the eyewitness testimony, and as is typical of eyewitness testimony, much of it might seem contradictory. Much of what I read seemed exculpatory (meaning it backs up John) but some is not as conclusive. It's going to be a classic courtroom battle with each side using the same facts to arrive at 100% opposite conclusions. On the surface, prosecution has a tough job with this one but you can never tell how a case like this will wash in court.

I do know that various government agencies have characterized John as a lunatic fringer in the media. They labeled him part of the "dangerous Montana Freemen" which sounded odd because I seem to remember the Montana Freemen being completely destroyed by the state years ago. And besides, that was Montana. What does that have to do with Arizona?

They said John had an "arsenal" in his car. Every time I hear about a citizen with more than a couple of firearms around all the sudden it's an "arsenal". Everybody who has more than 20 rounds of ammunition is "stockpiling". Heck man, I know guys that will blow off a few thousand rounds in one afternoon at the range.

Meanwhile, and this is from the deceased man's own posts, in his own words, the guy that got shot not only bragged about getting into drunken bar fights and doing drugs but the guy was drunk and driving at the time of the incident. Where's the media vilification of that?

Starting to see a pattern here? I know a smear campaign when I see one. No matter if John is guilty or innocent, what happened here is a tragedy. My deepest condolences to out to the fincee of the deceased. But if John doesn't get a fair trial we have two tragedies here.

There's nothing we can do about the first tragedy. Let's just make sure another one doesn't happen in the form of perverted justice.

 

[TXcarlosTX]

The People can carry GUNS!!!! (no license)

US Citizens are subject to the jurisdiction thereof and for that they need to ask permission from the state.